What happened to ladies skating?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skateboy, Dec 27, 2011.

  1. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I barely watch ladies skating anymore, it just kind of bores me now. It occurred to me that the top ladies programs of today (Carolina, Mao) would not have had a chance medaling at any of the Olympics from 1992 onward.

    In fact, a top 5 finish would have been improbable.
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Blame it on COP. The skaters are using the system to win with less jump content and more of everything else. I am not saying I like it, but that's what it is. Hopefully Mao will add the triple axel to her LP at worlds to up the ante.
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  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Conversely, some of the Olympic medalists since 1992 would be hard pressed to finish in the top five Worlds this season -- Baiul, Hughes, and Kerrigan (at least the 1992 version), to name just three.

    Blame it on 6.0. :p
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  4. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Totally disagree with you, especially Kerrigan. She was did more in 1992 than today's girls do. Bauil and Hughes would have been dinged for two-foots, edge calls and URs, but they were doing a complete repertoire of jumps, so I think they would still fare okay.
  5. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    because of CoP... bla bla bla.
  6. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    A judging system gets what it selects for, not what the designers think they're selecting for.

    In simpler terms - behavior that's rewarded will increase, behavior that's punished will decrease.

    The jihad against under-rotation that the ISU pursued a few years ago didn't convince skaters to fully rotate their jumps (if they could to that they already would have been doing so) but to eliminate ambitious jumps, potential problem jumps and jump combinations that they weren't 100 % sure of.

    Reward risk-taking and you'll get more risk-taking. Reward ugly spins and you'll get ugly spins.

    Ruthlessly punish minor lapses of technique and you'll have competitors scaling back what they attempt.

    Finally, an unpretty (but probable) truth: Most ladies simply don't have the muscle mass to do triples the same way men do. So they developed a set of workarounds to create the illusion that they could becuse audiences mostly prefer flawed triples to perfect doubles. Either judge mens and ladies jumping differently or be content with programs winning without many triples.
  7. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Of course Kerrigan did more than today's women do. She did an eighth jumping pass, which wouldn't count today! :p

    Kerrigan's FS jump content in 1992 was: 2A, 2F, 3T, 3S, 2Z+2T, 3R, 2A, 2A, 3T+3T. The eighth jumping pass (which she threw in because she wasn't able to add a 3T onto the earlier solo 3T) would be invalid, so her jumping content would include only three triple jumps, none higher than a 3R, and none of those in combination. I would expect Kostner, Asada, Suzuki, Murakami, and whatever American and Russians go to Worlds to do more than that. Her spins and step sequences wouldn't have scored many points, though I suspect she could probably have done more if she had to compete under CoP.


    [ETA: I was mistaken here -- that was her FS at Nationals.]

    Baiul had five triples in her FS, of which only two were clean. That really isn't going to cut it in 2012. She also had no step sequence in her FS, so her Base Value would be very low. And her spins weren't much by today's standards.

    Hughes had underrotated triple loops at the end of her two combinations in the FS, so she'd probably get -3's on those along with lower base value. She also flutzed. Thus, she arguably had only two triple-jump elements that would get positive GOE. And her PCS for the SP would probably be fairly low. (I think she totally deserved her gold medal, but I don't think she'd do all that well at Worlds this season.)
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  8. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Why do you assume it would be the 3T-3T that wouldn't have counted? I don't think that was the last thing in her program.
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :eek:
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  10. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute, the jump content you mentioned isn't quite right. Her Oly jump content was: 2A, 3F, 3T-1T, 3S, 1LZ, 3R, 3T (hand down). No eighth jumping pass. 5 triples, 4 clean.
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's not just about jumps. Oksana Baiul won with less triples than Nancy Kerrigan, Lu Chen, Surya Bonaly, and Yuka Sato.
    Ladies today aren't worse skaters. If you compare Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and others to ladies from the past, they are better in many areas, including skating skills and step sequences.
    The fact is that, apparently, ladies can't work on everything at the same time, and do a program with hard steps, hard spins and difficult jumps. JMO.
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  12. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Well-Known Member

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    You can't compare skaters who were brought up and competed under the old 6.0 system with today's COP skaters. Its like comparing chalk with cheese. You can only judge a skater by the rules, standards, and conditions that existed at the time. If Oksana Baiul had been brought up and competed under COP, she would almost certainly have turned out to be a completely different type of skater. Her training regime would probably have been pretty similar to today's Russian juniors like Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, Lipnitskaya, and Radionova. In fact, Baiul, who won the 1993 Worlds at the age of 15, would probably be pretty similar to Adelina Sotnikova (who is also 15) - far more technically gifted than under the 6.O system, but less artistically developed (although Sotnikova for her age is a very good artistic skater as well, as would Baiul have still been under COP). Hence, the regulatory system that exists at the time determines what type of skaters you get, because the coaches will always adjust the training regime to extract the most out of it. Accordingly, whereas under the 6.0 system, coaches would address artistry and technique in equal measure at a young age, under COP coaches will always concentrate heavily on technical issues with young skaters (as that's where the points are) and gradually add artistry as the skater gets older (i.e. the emphasis is firmly on establishing a solid technical grounding first and foremost). That's why with the Russian juniors, they are superb technicians, but less developed artistically (which is added later as they grow older). As stated, that's why Baiul would almost certainly have been a completely different type of skater at the age of 15-16 under COP and far better technically - as she would have been given a much better technical grounding similar to today's Russian juniors (Ukraine still being in the Soviet Union when Oksana was growing up and learning to skate). Nevertheless, COP did not exist back in 1993/94 and under the old 6.0 system, Baiul did not need the technical ability of COP skaters to win the world and olympic titles. Her artistry more than made up for any technical deficiencies she had (and her competitors were not much better - which was to be expected - they were taught to the standards that existed at the time), and her coaches obviously got it right as artistry was where the marks were under the 6.0 system.

    A lot of revisionists try to re-judge the 1994 Olympics using COP standards and try and make out a case for a Kerrigan victory. But as Baiul and Kerrigan would have been completely different types of skater under COP, its a completely pointless exercise. The best you can do is to say well Baiul would probably have turned out like Adelina Sotnikova under COP and Kerrigan would probably have turned out like Alissa Czisny. Hence, if the 1994 Olympics had been held under COP conditions, your best comparison will be the 2013 World Championships (the first Worlds Sotnikova will be eligible to compete in), or even better the 2014 Olympics (i.e. by comparing where Sotnikova and Czisny place). Not a very satisfactory comparison to say the least, but nor is re-judging a competition that took place in the 6.0 system era by COP standards.

    Interestingly, Baiul's idols were Jill Trenary and Katarina Witt - two of the best artistic skaters of the time. That says a lot about the 6.0 system and its heavy bias towards artistry and well choreographed programs. :)
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
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  13. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    ladiezzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... :violin:
  14. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    I agree that the ladies event has been ruined (for me) by the not so new judging system. I pray for the day's when a lady could do a camel spin without the pull up to her head-or laid back spin or spiral.
    Everything has to be so difficult to get the levels now that it's more like gymnastics.
    Kwan's free skate at the 2001 Worlds was for me the last truly great yet simple (by simple I mean by today's standards) free skate.
    Adding double toe loop or double loop to triple jumps may be difficult but most of the time look messy.
    Kerrigan when she got it right-Olympic shorts in 1992 & 1994 & at the worlds in 1993 were fantastic to watch.
  15. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    I know that the 3T was slightly two-footed and the 3F very obviously so, but what was the third triple-jumping error? Did she flutz?

    Asada would've been in trouble without at least a 3flutz in the SP combination jumping pass, but I could see her medaling at the Olympics in the 1990s with her 2011 NHK FS (2A, 3F2R, 3flutz, 2A3T, 3F<2R<2R, 3S, and 3R that was heavily two-footed).
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  16. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Asada could have flutzed though with little penalty....
  17. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    IMO the fact that frontrunners are lacking in the field takes the most of the fault.(I don't think it's all about CoP) When Yuna had flawless 3-3s and Mao was pushing 3As endlessly, the level of fields altogether went up just to have a shot at medaling and now that none of both is existent, it's much easier to medal without any of those and it became uninspiring and just plain normal.

    Look at this wonderful clip bartek posted a couple of weeks ago and be amazed how many ladies were pushing their own envelopes. How exciting was that?!
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3408257#post3408257
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  18. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if somebody posted this same sort of thing in a chat forum back when for the first time they allowed women to show their knees when they competed?
  19. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Well-Known Member

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    Current position in best skater of 2011 poll with 199 votes cast:-

    1. Men - 77 votes
    2. Ice dance - 71 votes
    3. Pairs - 32 votes
    4. Ladies - 19 votes

    That says it all about the current state of ladies skating - at a low ebb. Hopefully, the new Russians, Gracie Gold, and a revitalised Mao can inject new life into it.
  20. Miruna

    Miruna New Member

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    Mao would have been multiple champion in the 6.0 system. Remember how many points she lost up until 2010-2011 season with her 3A< which had a base value of a 2A. Her 3Flutz would receive no penalty and she would probably still try 3F-3L since there were no UR. I can understand your point with Carolina, but not with Mao.
  21. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    You're right. I was confusing her FS at Nationals that year with how she did at the Olympics. :eek:

    However, under CoP, she'd get negative GOE for the 3T-1T (the 1T was horrible), and the 3T, leaving her with three clean jumping passes that involved triples. Her marks would also suffer because she had only one combination (and only a 3T+1T at that), and her spins and footwork wouldn't score very highly under CoP either.

    To me, at least, the triple lutz looks like it's off the correct edge but underrotated (3Z<, not 3<<).
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    A bunch of the ladies today would have faired well under 6.0 too. Namely, someone like Mao because they wouldn't have had to work on fixing her flutz under 6.0.
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Mao doesn't have all the triples.
  24. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD New Member

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    Yes, she does. Like smarts1 said, if you count her flutz as a lutz, then she has (and currently attempts) all triples.
  25. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Watch Russian nationals. The majority of the girls have 3-3. I think it is much tougher competition that the whole GP season.

    For me it is much more boring to watch men and dance. You always know who will win, especially in men, so why don't they just send the medal to Patrick by post and save on a hotel and travelling expenses?
  26. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I wish people would quit asserting that flutzes and URs were completely ignored in 6.0. It's simply untrue. While it was not as heavily penalized, all you have to do is look at Sarah's Hughes' and Surya Bonaly's placements to see that the judges were not rewarding them for their technical flaws. How many times did they land more jumps than their competitors, but finish behind them? Sarah Hughes won world bronze by placing 4th in the SP and LP. In SLC, her SP placement was the result of inconsistency by the judges of all the skaters in the 4-10 range. She only won the long program because all three of the top skaters underperformed.

    Skaters can/could and did/do win in both systems even with edge violations and under-rotations.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
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  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Surya beat everyone on the technical mark when she won those silver medals at Worlds in 93, 94, and 95. She lost on the second mark, so I don't see what you mean...
  28. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Marks were only used to place skaters. And the second mark was used as an overall quality of skating too (it was not an artistic mark).
    Anyway, Surya had the most difficult program and didn't win.
    Same with Sarah Hughes : 7 triples at 1999 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, and 2002 Olympics, but not the best marks compared to the others, because of her flutz and under-rotations. ;)
  29. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

    It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.

    Once it became "the norm," I think the majority of those 6 or 7 triple programs outside of the medalists were mostly crossovers between the jumps.

    I would rather see less attempts at 6 or 7 triples if it means less crossovers. As for the lutz, I don't know when the 3z became the be all end all. I'd rather see someone with great skating skills and speed who's only repeating loops, toes or salchows then someone with minimal ice coverage and a flawed lutz, or flawed jumps generally.

    This topic inevitably leads to bashing the 6.0 generation, which isn't really fair. But there's no way even skaters from '96-'02 would have been regularly getting credit for 6 or 7 triple jump programs, nor should they have been. Skaters in the 6.0 didn't have to waste (and I do mean waste!) an extra 15-20 seconds plus loads of energy on a step sequence. That has to take a lot out of the legs
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Kristi Yamaguchi landed 7 triples at 1992 US Nationals.
    Lu Chen already attempted 7 triples in 1991 and 1992 Junior Worlds, including a 3T/3T. I don't remember if she landed everything. ;)
  31. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    I want to say that Surya Bonaly (in 1993) was the next skater to successfully land seven triples at the World/Olympic level, followed by Michelle Kwan in 1995, but I could be wrong. (ETA: Apparently! See #33.)
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  32. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    I think you must mean Salt Lake City, not Nagano.
  33. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Chen landed 7 triples at 1991 Senior Worlds, including 3T3T and two lutzes, when she was fourteen years of age.
  34. DimaToe

    DimaToe Well-Known Member

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    Blame Morozov :lynch:
  35. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that when FS fans talk about great ladies programs, they talk about Midori, Chen Lu, Michelle, Tara, Kristi... no one mentions anything this decade except Yu-Na's Oly programs.

    And I don't think any current ladies will go down in history as having amazing programs. It's sad.
  36. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Of course, my bad!
  37. Amy03

    Amy03 New Member

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    well I disagree, the reason why people mentioned the old skaters was because they where compering them with the current skaters! both Mao Asada and Yuna Kim have left behind some really amazing programs!
  38. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Mao Asada has skated some amazing programs too.
  39. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Ladies is boring, but it has been since before CoP. At least it has remained consistent. :D The other disciplines are getting more boring with CoP. I don't dread the ladies as much!

    And the wrong-edge takeoffs... rather than making everyone learn the correct lutz and flip, they just don't do them.

    It says to me that the US and Canada are doing much better in men and dance right now than pairs and ladies. Most of the posters here are from North America. Put that poll on a Chinese, Japanese, or Russian board and the results would be different.
  40. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    I just think that ladies skating is in somewhat of a slump right now. I think someone will come along and start doing 6-7 triple programs again and it will become the norm again. Makes me appreciate skaters like Kwan and Rochette all over again.