Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by johndockley92, Apr 3, 2012.
Or maybe a Judge's six inches...
I can think of other aspects of Contesti and Verner's physical appearance to distract me from their less than stellar skating than their hair.
I think Daisuke is past his prime (unfortunately) and cannot improve technically to beat Chan on that mark. The judges seem to favor Chan's interpretation and programs so Daisuke isn't beating him on the second mark either. Unless the judges are brainwashed, I dont' see Daisuke ever beating a decent skate from Chan.
Two words: Tonya Harding...
And yet over the past two seasons his jumps have been getting better.
I really hope he works with Schoenfelder again this summer.
We shall see. I really feel that he has reached his peak jump wise.
I'm tempted to say the same, but then again, Daisuke's success rate with his quad about two seasons ago (i.e. Olympic season) was basically zero in competition. This season, if I recall correctly, he's landed proper 3 quads in competition (I'm counting the 4T in his Worlds SP as clean, and although he 2footed the one in his Worlds LP, he got full credit and positive GOE overall so I'm counting that one too). Maybe this upward trend will continue next season.....
Other things Daisuke can consider doing:
1) Keep his SP from this season. Personally, I think it's the better of his two programs this season (and the judges seem to agree if the PCS is any indication) and he can really work on nailing the quad in the SP instead of learning more new choreography, etc
2) Firmly establish himself as the Japanese #1 man for more rep points. In this vein, he really needs to deal with Yuzuru Hanyu, who is looking more and more dangerous every season. Daisuke really needs to either a) get his quads solid so he can keep up TES-wise, or b) hire some goons to club Yuzuru's knee. I suggest a), but YMMV.
3) Return to France this summer and continue working with Schoenfelder on his SS again.
I would love for Takahashi to keep his SP, which is wonderful, but he doesn't often recycle programs, does he?
I don't know if he'll ever have a consistent quad again - it's now been, what, three years since he came back to the ice after the injury, and he's still dealing with getting the consistency back on it. I guess he'll just have to decide when and how often to take the risk.
IIRC, in one of the press conferences at 2010 Worlds, Takahashi said he'd have to continue working hard because there were so many good juniors coming up, specifically mentioning Hanyu. I don't see him turning to criminal pursuits to deal with this threat, though
He needs to workd on skating skills to maintain the edge a little longer. He has everything and would have been multiple times World Champion without Patrick Chan being here. But Patrick Chan is here.
I think he can get there. Skating needs stars and one of them is certainly Daisuke. I'm cool with him winning but he has to do it legitimately. I'd like to see him use more interesting and varied musical interpretation and do the biggest thing that Patrick does: maximize the difficulty of the in betweens. I don't skate but I understand the edge pushing, turns and high low movements take quite a bit out of skaters, so you need to be not only skilled but super fit. My understanding is this is why many top skaters don't do this stuff...because they can't. Doesn't leave enough energy to do the jumps.
Anyway I'm glad people took my post positively. Dai does many things very well, just not as well as Patrick according to CoP.
I know he has very good edges but I wonder about his overall skating skills.
Check the transitional turns he attempted at 3:02 mark of the Japan Open. Turning clockwise on his right foot. Did it badly. A few more turns and he might have gone down. This move subsequently was pulled from the program and replaced by essentially nothing. Leaves me wondering what he's actually able to do...
That spin was a planned level 4 spin. He messed up the camel at this particular skate causing the spin to be downgraded. Doesn't mean he is capable of doing a level 4 flying combo spin. In fact, despite the messed up camel, he still got higher GOEs than Takahashi on that particular element.
Hardly on both counts. Takahashi was never a dominant skater. His one and only time coming 2nd to Chan at a Worlds he was only 3rd in both the SP and LP. Chan has only won Worlds twice himself, you talk about him as if he is some all time great, but he has achieved less than skaters Lysacek or Lambiel so far.
For someone who likes to throw medal statistics to defend arguments, this one doesn't stand up too well. Other than an Olympic medal of which Lambiel has one from 3 attempts and Lysacek one (albeit the OGM) from two attempts, Chan pretty much trumps both in terms of medals won and certainly his two silvers and two golds in the last 4 worlds is a better record than either skater. Plus he's the WR holder for SP, LP and combined score under IJS - scores which far outstrip anything Lambiel or Lysacek ever achieved. If Chan is destined to win a medal at the Olympics, it will happen in Sochi.
Rock2 - Excellent posts in this thread. Some sanity amidst the madness
Aren't you forgetting a few World medals (titles) for Lambiel?
Lambiel has two golds and one bronze at Worlds, Lysacek has one gold and two bronze medals, and Patrick has 2 gold and 2 silver. Therefore Patrick's record at Worlds in terms of medals comes out on top
That explains so much...
It wasn't as though at that point he was hitting very specific moments in the music and doing it totally off the mark - like a film that is not synched up properly. He was still skating to the beat and the tempo - the overall feel of the music.
It is similar when you are doing a Compulsory Dance you can start at any beat and still be dancing to the music extremely well.
Well, not any beat. But it's better to be a whole measure or a whole phrase behind and still be on the beat than to be one beat behind.
I only know that he's behind his music because I have seen the program many times. For general people who just saw it the first time, or only whenever that program's skated, they'd not be able to tell that he's behind the music. Thus, the impact is minimum.
Thanks for the correction! That is what I meant!
If a CD starts on beat 1 then as long as you start on beat 1 you are still on time. And the dance still works in style and rhythm in a different section of the music.
Chan also won four World medals in a row after his first Worlds, in which he placed 9th.
To give credit where it is due, while Chan beat Lysacek at the 2009 4C's, Lysacek beat Chan at the 2010 Olympics and at 2009 Worlds, their only encounter at Worlds, and Chan only went head-to-head with Plushenko once, in Vancouver, while Lysacek competed against Plushenko three times: at 2005 Worlds, from which Plushenko had to withdraw due to injury, and at 2006 and 2010 Olympics. Lysacek also won bronze at his first senior Worlds.
Lambiel competed against Yagudin at 2002 Worlds and Plushenko at 2003-2005 Worlds and at the 2006 and 2010 Olympics.
That's because the choreography was only made to collect points and his body movements had nothing to do with the music to begin with.
I would notice if the picture and audio are out of sync for a fraction of a second in Takahashi's video.
Takahashi is a charismatic skater. He's very musical and is already very good among the top few. Just skate his best and continue his great skating.
That is mean... But I have to agree. Chan's free program reminds me a little bit of a cd as well. Very precise footwork, great transitions... not much emotionality, definitely no crowd pleaser.
Anyway, I would rather ask what Chan needs to do. By now, he is certainly on the top. He is on the peak of his abilities, but still not very appreciated by the crowds and, according to his own complaints, not even very popular in Canada. Furthermore, he has to make sure that he needs to worry if he will be on the top in two years. Not to win in Sotchi would be really a disappointment for Chan.
For Takahashi, I think, this is an encore. He had serious injuries, and came back, planned to finish his career years ago but is still there. He had an olympic medal, a world title. Plus he is the first man from Japan to achieve this and a top star in his country. Whatever he will achieve in the future is the icing on the cake.
I just hope he will find new music and get new programs he loves to skate... get more consistent with the quad and continues to compete till 2014.
That's the whole point. Could Abbott skate his entire program a measure off (or even a portion of it) and still have the same impact? Absolutely not, because his movements are so detailed and so in tune with the harmonic changes, not just the rhythm. That is where skaters like Abbott and Takahashi are miles above Chan, and they should be rewarded for it in the appropriate PCS categories.
No it means he was still hitting beats of the music and he was still with the music. For me it still worked.
That is what I noticed about Takahashi. He was stroking between elements and not to the music. It was jarring.
I am afraid I completely disagree. I watched Takahashi's LP many times, concentrating on his feet and the rhythm he gives to his every turn of the blade. What is remarkable is his use of synchopation throughout the piece, the way he accentuated the rhythm and phrasing, and how he accelerates with the rhythm towards the end as the complexity grows. That last straight-line step -sequence is a marvel of musical precision. I get really upset with posters ( not talking about the poster above whom I quoted) who try to reduce Takahashi's artistry to facial expressions and "charisma". I could not care less about facial expressions, and am often wary of charisma. I look at the feet, at the upper body, and at the ways they relate to music; how upper body relates to melodic gesture, and how the feet relate to rhythm.
... and I am sorry, Rock2, I disagree with your musical analysis as well. The first 50 seconds or so of every skater are a 'set-up time', when they do the first, often hardest jumps, and neither Chan nor Takahashi nor anybody in the world is expected to interpret a 4T. But afterwards, I do not understand the claim that Takahashi does not have an interesting musical interpretation.
Difficulty of talking about those things lies in the fact that it is hard to verbalize music. With the best of them ( and certainly Takahashi, starting from about one minute in), I feel that I can write the rhythmic variation they do with the blade above the existing score, and it will become its own melodic/rhymical line, enhansing the music; every measure is different and thought- out, not interchangeable. Like polyphony, with an added line for a skater's feet. There are no contrasting moods in "Blues for Klook"; what there is is a constant pull between the tension of long vibrating notes and the emotion of the quick ones, with the build-up towards the end ( not unlike Ravel's "Bolero", only of more sensual nature). That is exactly what Daisuke does with his footwork throughout; with speed and amplitude of movement increasing towards the end. But alas, talking in terms so general does little, and it is frustrating. All I can suggest is watching his feet, feeling 123123 of the music, feeling the melodic ups and downs and looking at how Daisuke's blade weaves an additional musical line.
Whole post. Thanks for your astute analysis, dinakt. Do you feel Dai should have beat Patrick? How would you have scored them on PCS?