What does Takahashi need to do?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by johndockley92, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,863
    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
     
  2. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,090
    Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

    I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

    It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.

    Like I have said it is about percentages which is how you are meant to look at the components. What percentage of the program did they actually interpret? When it comes down to it I think the judges at the event probably did their jobs because they looked at the percentages.
     
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.
     
  4. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,641
    For you, of course.
     
  5. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,506
    I remember observing this at Skate Canada this year only I didn't know how to express it in such detail....cudos to you for this post. Patrick uses his whole body to express the music.
     
  6. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,584
    Dai is a magnificent show skater and would have done fine in 6.0 but I dont think he would have beaten Patrick in 6.0 years either.

    Patrick's skating just blows you away. Even his ex program which is simpler and less chock full of goodies than his COP programs catch every nuance of the music.

    No doubt though that Dai is a pleasure to watch but will he be able to catch Patrick's edge work which has been honed over years of hard work under Mr Colson ... I doubt very much.

    Rock 2 really enjoyed and agreed with your analysis. Seeing the programs side by side tells the tale better than any statement.
     
  7. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,281
    It is really nice to see someone set emotion and fandom aside and do an analysis like that. Thank you, Rock, we should see this more often.:cool:
     
  8. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    THANK YOU so much for the analysis Rock2, I'd rep you so hard if I could!

    It's great to see tangible analysis on why Chan is above and beyond other skaters unlike some naysayer's repeat comments on him being robotic or soulless.

    Of course there will still be people that will also say if you need such a long explanation on why one is better than the other then figure skating will lose the popularity. This is too bad because Figure Skating is still a sport and like all other sports it needs to expand and grow by achieving human mastery. It's not just about the jumps, under CoP I feel on average skating skills and program composition barring the ugly catchfoots, are much demanding than in the 6.0s days. As a fan it is also more interesting to watch.
     
  9. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Hope you get better.
     
  10. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    7,139
    I would agree here. Dai's spins are competent (they get the levels) but I would score most of them at a 0 GOE. If he could get better GOE on the spins it would definitely help his TES.
     
  11. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Well, Chan's programs are certainly not same old same old. And he IS PUSHING not only himself, but all other skaters.
     
  12. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    I am just stating what I think, same as others who think Dai should just wear a Chan mask or change his name or other nonsense.
     
  13. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Not necessary true. Chan made more mistakes early on in the season, but not late of the season. He was perfect at National on both SP and LP. He had one mistake at 4CC. I think his fall on the 2A at World was an odd case. It's not like he jumped and fell on the landing. It's more like his blade caught something before taking off. Dai made MORE mistakes than him at his National and 4CC.
     
  14. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Bravo!!!

    But Dai fans will refuse to see it because they are too busy vomiting after reading my earlier post :lol:
     
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    12,902
    Interesting analysis, Rock 2. Thank you.

    I too would like to hear what others see that I'm missing. Could someone who think's Dai wuzrobbed give an equally detailed explanation as to why?
     
  16. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    12,902
    Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.


    .
     
  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,043
    I was responding to a poster who suggested that IN is not just about being in tune with the music. I think the ISU criteria shows that IN is exactly about that, and if a skater is behind the music, even for part of the program, than the IN score should be impacted in a noticeable way.

    I tend to disagree with Chan's IN scores in general, but that's irrelevant to my previous post, which was specifically about what the IN component measures. It's also irrelevant to this thread, so I'd prefer not to continue with this subject.
     
  18. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,090
    I just rewatched the program and took note of the end of the program. Something that concerns me with skaters is when they take their music to absolute time limit. I would much rather they give themselves a couple of seconds that if they do run over then they won't incur the time deduction.

    I don't think the fall on the axel impacted on the IN. I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.
     
  19. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    :lol: You must be a Star Wars fan. I have one at home.
    Seriously, Dai is a brilliant skater and is already up there among the handful few. I love his skating. It just so happen that there are a handful of wonderful skaters now and the coming years. If he can add a couple of quads, he will add more points to his skates.
     
  20. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Oh yes, can you please Aussie Willy? I am a non-skater and I find this type of analysis useful in helping me to understand the sport. I always love knowledgeable comments in sports. :cheer:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  21. mikeko

    mikeko Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    73
    Check the protocol before you post.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

    Spins in LP:

    Chan:
    FCCoSp1 2.00 0.79
    CSSp4 3.00 1.00
    CCoSp4 3.50 1.07

    Takahashi:
    CCSp4 3.20 0.50
    FCCoSp4 3.50 0.71
    CCoSp4 3.50 1.00
     
  22. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    15,834
    Takahashi has it all! He needs just more luuuuuurve from us, putting more banners for him than for Chan!

    And a haircut.
     
  23. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    871
    NOOOOoooooo he certainly does not!

    Hair cut I mean... it is purrrrrrfect thank you very much!
    Don't mess with the Hair! He ain't the Elvis of Figure skating for nothing!!

    Patrick Chan on the other hand can stick with his old altar boy hair cut in the church of COP, don't really care.
     
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,343
    So Chan messed up the levels on his flying spin. Other than that, you will see that Chan gets higher GOEs on each corresponding spin than Takahashi.
     
  25. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,431
    Great post, indeed :) :respec: (why there's no simple thumbs up smiley?).

    I too am one of those who love Dai much more than Patrick. and I've always almost taken it for granted that Dai also interprets the music better than Chan. I had my doubts with his LP this season, although the wonderful Latvian commentator thought that he interpreted his music better than Patrick this time as well. And now you've helped me to understand why (that is, why I had those doubts). Thank you for that, Rock2, really.
     
  26. skaterdelight

    skaterdelight New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    145
    ALL I WANT IS FOR DAI TO KEEP SKATING SO I CAN KEEP ON SEEING HIS WONDERFUL ARTISTRY AND INTERESTING PROGRAMS AND SOUL!!! Hopefully, along the way he'll continue to get medals - gold or otherwise and gets satisfaction from his efforts. It takes courage to come back from injuries and compete inspite of them. The PCS scoring is sh______t as far as I'm concerned.

    I can enjoy Chan and appreciate what he's got to offer but one program is like another to me. Let's see if he can continue to do 2 quads next season and the next season or if he comes down with injuries which so many other competitors have done and see what his scores will be like then. This year his skating skills have shown weaknesses with bobbles, slips and falls in every competition and his program lacks any emotional commitment, yet the judges have still overscored his skating skills in PCS. What will happen if he doesn't have those quads all the time.

    As a skating fan though, I'm always glad to watch great competitors, whether they are jumpers, artists or just fierce competitors. Having a whole bunch of any of those in a competition is like being in a candy store with all my favorite candies.
     
  27. skaterdelight

    skaterdelight New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    145
    Double post.
     
  28. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Your love for Dai's great. No need to insult Chan and his look. :rolleyes:
     
  29. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Besides his quads, he has great skating skill, great body line, great artistry, great speed, great transitions, great spins, great footworks, great interpretation of music, great edges and smooth and effortless overall of his skate.
     
  30. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,607
    Takahashi beats Chan on spins because he does spins with a higher base value and gets +GOE on top of that, for a higher total spin score. If Chan can do higher valued spins and get the same GOE, then he should. Takahashi and Kozuka are both brilliant at selecting spins that have the highest base values, then getting level 4's and +GOE on them.

    ^ Much appreciated, Rock2! I am a huge Takahashi fan, but Patrick's skating has some qualities that a well-trained eye will really value and that are hard for any other skater to match. The only thing I disagree on is Takahashi's "head bops". It's really hard to stay upright and balanced while moving your head like that, so I give HUGE props to any skater who can do it!
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012