What does Takahashi need to do?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by johndockley92, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    So in other words Dai was punished for using more challenging music and he should stick to grossly overused warhorses like Aranjuez? That sucks. :(
  2. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    No, he's being punished for stripping out much of the choreography which we saw in Mississauga, wherein he seemed to become the music. The version of his program we saw at Worlds was a pale shadow the program he debuted in Mississauga.
  3. snoopysnake

    snoopysnake Well-Known Member

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    Dai needs only to skate to music he feels and to the best of his ability. If he skates clean and still does not get the color medal that he deserves, it is not because he is doing anything wrong. The performances he skates are his legacy and those are what illustrate his greatness. Daisuke's Blues for Klook is a masterpiece.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    Yes me too!!!
  5. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    I think this is a very important point. A lot of the difference between Chan and Takahashi is coming from within GOE.
  6. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    He needs to skate for Canada and change his name to Patrick Chan. Otherwise he has no chance. Not because he woudn't have the skills, but because the judges are only humans and have their favourites. And that's sad!
  7. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    How is that even possible? Do you want the ISU to add a level 5 for step sequences? :rolleyes:

    You're extreme even for an uber, so I won't dignify the rest of it with a response. Past a certain point any attempt at a discussion becomes ridiculous.
  8. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    While I applaud his music choices, is there a way to tone down how frenetic he looks during programs? He always appears to be firing on all cylinders all the time which can leave elements looking unfinished and sloppy.
  9. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    As I mentioned in the Worlds FS thread, Hanyu picked up more GOE points than Takahashi in the long program (13 to 8). Unfortunately, his 3 loop usually gets 0 to negative GOE (as it did in Nice), and the judges have been calling his 3 flip a lip on occasion as well.

    I would like to think that if he cleans up some of his elements (better, longer landing edges as well), he will get higher component scores (one can only hope).

    Interestingly Blues for Klook has been used in programs for close to 20 years, so while not overused, it's still been used in skating (and gymnastics) programs to an extent.
  10. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with your assessment. Dai put his heart and soul into his programs this season, I saw brilliance from him this season, and still Patrick came out ahead, it may always be like that. I am still scratcng my head about the sloppy comments.
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  11. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Asada also has that problem.

    In contrast, Suzuki holds her landings beautifully this season.
  12. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    thanks for that. I've always hated her landings. Worst moment she has.

    Back to the topic at hand...
  13. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    He may have earlier in the season, but I was disappointed with the Worlds version of the LP. I thought the version I saw in Mississauga was one of the his best programs ever, second only to his 2010 Olympic programs (my all-time favourites).

    He performed it brilliantly but it was not the program I fell in love with.
  14. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I'll meet you in the vomitorium.
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I guess the question is whether Takahashi's goal is to outpoint Chan (and Hanyu) at all costs, or go down trying, or to skate the best possible programs that he is capable of skating and to take whatever medals that might earn him.

    With the first approach, I think losing big is more likely than winning big, which is why I'd rather see the latter.
  16. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    I feel it comes down to jumps. Period.

    Chans jumps tend to carry over the ice farther while Takahashi's jumps have an "straight up and down" technique.
    Chan has a bit more speed into, but more importantly OUT OF his jumps: better running edge.

    Also think that Chan has shown a fairly consistent quad for 2 years now and Takahashi seems to be still working his consistency back. That plays in the judges minds...

    I am not a Chan fan btw- I do hope and believe that Takahashi will defeat him soon...
  17. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    LOL- Love it! :rofl:
  18. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    Is there room for one more. ;)
  19. A judge

    A judge New Member

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    Takahashi is 26 years old. His jumps are not going to get any better.
  20. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Chan has such amazing glide over the ice that it's like catnip to judges. That's extremely hard to compete with, and it's also hard to acquire. With that in mind, I think the only way Takahashi can successfully compete with Chan is to continue to play to his own strengths (charisma, characterization and exciting choreography) while skating clean programs that include a clean quad in the short and a clean quad and quad-triple in the long. Only a clean Takahashi with the same technical content as Chan can beat Chan, who typically makes a mistake or two. The fact that Takahashi is finally landing quads again this year is very encouraging.
    I also agree that Takahashi needs to work on holding his jump landings in his programs, especially in the second half when he's a little tired. It won't be easy, but it will be a lot easier than acquiring Patrick's incredible glide.
  21. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Just want to give some specifics on Dai's program and then later compare to Usova Zhulin in 1993. Yes, different discipline, but many of the interpretation criteria are similar. I'll also highlight some pieces from Chan

    Here's a link to Dai in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI
    Usova/Zhulin 1993
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxseLaxl61s
    Chan in Nice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4


    I love Dai; he's charismatic and invests himself emotionally. But you have to pull that out of the analysis because those intangibles only count for so much in the PE IN and CH marks. So many other things matter.

    His two main shortfalls are (compared to Chan)
    1. The number of opportunities missed to interpret the music in a meaningful way and
    2. The lack of variety in his movement and ways to interpret the music.

    As for #1, there are places in the program where he doesn't really acknowledge the music.

    The first main part is through first 3 elements (0-1:20)
    -other than first 15 sec of program not many body movements connected to the music. Three turns after quad count for transitions but don't connect to music. Almost none of the notes acknowledged although some good transitional moves

    Musical transition (2:53 - 4:00)
    -Intensity picks up in the music with more furtive string instrument work. Dai's energy does not similarly amp up and there is very little movement that connects to the music. He does move his arms around but not in relation to the music. This is the best example here of missed opportunities to highlight the music. Arm movements, simpler connecting footwork and head bops. All very good but not worthy of 9s

    Compare that section specifically...2:53 to about 3:10 to Usova/Zhulin 6:10 to 6:40. Same cut of music. U/Z hit the notes and varied their body movement. More importantly their energy and speed surged with the music whereas Dai kept to one level of energy and kept the choreo to simple arm movements. Doesn't compare. Note that just before this section he stripped out a number of transitional moves he had earlier in the year at the J.O.

    As for #2, watching the program again with a more critical eye, I've now become even more aware of the lack of variety in his movement compared to Patrick. I now find that Dai's program is again simple arm movements and simpler footwork movements and sporadic edge work. And, outside of footwork everything he does is completely upright. Comparatively easy.

    With Patrick I see something different. Already in the first 20 seconds he uses almost every edge and rocks on them to the music. His body goes from high to low which you never see from Dai. Impacts choreo and IN part depending on how judges see it.
    -Also unlike Dai Patrick is up and down in his knees to the music even going into his hard early jumps, something Dai never does.
    -3A lands on a musical transition. Harder to do and gets more credit.

    Patrick has a much more well developed vocabulary in edges and turns. He highlights almost all of the notes and with an incredible variety of movement that incorporates his entire body. Lots of hops, directional changes and varied arm movements that are sharp or fluid all relative to what the music dictates.

    I find the more I watch the two side by side the better I find Patrick's program and interpretation. I'll catch a lot of sh*t for this but I think now I'd put Patrick a full point ahead of Dai on most of the components.

    Happy to hear what others see that I'm missing. Again, Dai's emotional investment does count but for much less than some people might think.
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Rock2 - that is an excellent analysis.

    I was actually thinking about downloading the clips of both Dai and Chan and then doing a written analysis over the top of the program, to show where they are hitting the marks with the music or doing set ups.

    It is not only important to do these kinds of things for helping spectators understand how a program is judged, but can also be used as a judging training tool.

    Like I have said it is about percentages which is how you are meant to look at the components. What percentage of the program did they actually interpret? When it comes down to it I think the judges at the event probably did their jobs because they looked at the percentages.
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Jump discussion aside, Takahashi really needs to improve his spins.
  24. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    For you, of course.
  25. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    I remember observing this at Skate Canada this year only I didn't know how to express it in such detail....cudos to you for this post. Patrick uses his whole body to express the music.
  26. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Dai is a magnificent show skater and would have done fine in 6.0 but I dont think he would have beaten Patrick in 6.0 years either.

    Patrick's skating just blows you away. Even his ex program which is simpler and less chock full of goodies than his COP programs catch every nuance of the music.

    No doubt though that Dai is a pleasure to watch but will he be able to catch Patrick's edge work which has been honed over years of hard work under Mr Colson ... I doubt very much.

    Rock 2 really enjoyed and agreed with your analysis. Seeing the programs side by side tells the tale better than any statement.
  27. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    It is really nice to see someone set emotion and fandom aside and do an analysis like that. Thank you, Rock, we should see this more often.:cool:
  28. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    THANK YOU so much for the analysis Rock2, I'd rep you so hard if I could!

    It's great to see tangible analysis on why Chan is above and beyond other skaters unlike some naysayer's repeat comments on him being robotic or soulless.

    Of course there will still be people that will also say if you need such a long explanation on why one is better than the other then figure skating will lose the popularity. This is too bad because Figure Skating is still a sport and like all other sports it needs to expand and grow by achieving human mastery. It's not just about the jumps, under CoP I feel on average skating skills and program composition barring the ugly catchfoots, are much demanding than in the 6.0s days. As a fan it is also more interesting to watch.
  29. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Hope you get better.
  30. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    I would agree here. Dai's spins are competent (they get the levels) but I would score most of them at a 0 GOE. If he could get better GOE on the spins it would definitely help his TES.
  31. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Well, Chan's programs are certainly not same old same old. And he IS PUSHING not only himself, but all other skaters.
  32. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    I am just stating what I think, same as others who think Dai should just wear a Chan mask or change his name or other nonsense.
  33. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Not necessary true. Chan made more mistakes early on in the season, but not late of the season. He was perfect at National on both SP and LP. He had one mistake at 4CC. I think his fall on the 2A at World was an odd case. It's not like he jumped and fell on the landing. It's more like his blade caught something before taking off. Dai made MORE mistakes than him at his National and 4CC.
  34. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Bravo!!!

    But Dai fans will refuse to see it because they are too busy vomiting after reading my earlier post :lol:
  35. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting analysis, Rock 2. Thank you.

    I too would like to hear what others see that I'm missing. Could someone who think's Dai wuzrobbed give an equally detailed explanation as to why?
  36. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Patrick wasn't behind the music for the whole program, just at the very end. And the judges may have in fact given him a lower score for IN than they would have without the timing issue. Given how high he generally scores for IN and how well he meets the criteria, it would not represent a serious reduction in marks.


    .
  37. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I was responding to a poster who suggested that IN is not just about being in tune with the music. I think the ISU criteria shows that IN is exactly about that, and if a skater is behind the music, even for part of the program, than the IN score should be impacted in a noticeable way.

    I tend to disagree with Chan's IN scores in general, but that's irrelevant to my previous post, which was specifically about what the IN component measures. It's also irrelevant to this thread, so I'd prefer not to continue with this subject.
  38. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I just rewatched the program and took note of the end of the program. Something that concerns me with skaters is when they take their music to absolute time limit. I would much rather they give themselves a couple of seconds that if they do run over then they won't incur the time deduction.

    I don't think the fall on the axel impacted on the IN. I wouldn't have even known that he was playing catch up or wasn't with the music until the very end when he finished afterwards.
  39. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lol: You must be a Star Wars fan. I have one at home.
    Seriously, Dai is a brilliant skater and is already up there among the handful few. I love his skating. It just so happen that there are a handful of wonderful skaters now and the coming years. If he can add a couple of quads, he will add more points to his skates.
  40. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, can you please Aussie Willy? I am a non-skater and I find this type of analysis useful in helping me to understand the sport. I always love knowledgeable comments in sports. :cheer:
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012