What does Takahashi need to do?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by johndockley92, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I know a lot of Chan supporters who seperate him from Takahashi, and I was wondering, in what area do you all think that Takahashi needs to improve in order to make himself as good as Patrick? What do you feel he is lacking?
     
  2. A judge

    A judge New Member

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    He is only lacking a clean quad and a clean quad triple. Then he will win.
     
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  3. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Let's see--in this thread and another, you've posted almost exclusively on the necessity of quads in a program to be scored well.

    Why does this remind me so much of another poster who had a similar quad obsession :shuffle:?
     
  4. Roxanne

    Roxanne Member

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    He needs a quad in the short and two in the long then maybe he can beat Patrick. He also needs a better music choice next season. I think maybe the reason he didn't get PCS close to Patrick's was because some judges didn't like Blues for Klook.
     
  5. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

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    Eh, besides QUADS, he needs better SPEED, better SKATING SKILL, better EDGES, better TRANSITIONS, better CHOREOGRAPHY, better PROGRAM to show off his skill and body line, better STYLE, more COMPLEX FOOTWORK...
     
  6. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    - Semi-consistent 4-3 in the short
    - 4-3, 4 in the long
    - More transitions into/out of his jumps and less time setting them up, especially on his non-money jumps, like the solo 3S he puts at the front of his long
    - Don't rely on cool variations for the spins in order to get levels, no matter how awesome they look and go with the program :( Sad to say, but it's true. Patrick's spins are very bland and he is not the best spinner, but whoever puts them together is very good at making sure they are ones he can pretty much do in his sleep and get the levels on. Daisuke's team has not always been good at that. Frankly, neither of them should really be getting much in the way of positive GOE because neither is that good a spinner (I think Daisuke is a bit faster but Patrick is better at staying centered), but levels >>>> GOE for points anyway.
    - Just more transitions/balanced program construction in general. He still has a lot and his programs are much better than a lot of the other men, but they're not on Patrick's level yet, and there are still parts where they feel almost like he's skating from element to element. Then again, it's not like PCS are always based in reality, so maybe not, but it is a difference I notice between their programs, although I don't think it's necessarily always scored correctly.
     
  7. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    Have you ever skated? Honest question.
     
  8. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    One thing that impressed me with Dai was how much had improved on his flying sit spin. Earlier in the season I kind of cringed when I watched it because it was clearly inferior to his other elements. This time both of them were really good.

    If you are looking at components I agree with doubleflutz about going from element to element. His step sequences when it comes to the musicality are superb, but I felt in his FS when he was getting the first few elements out of the way there was a hesitation and a lot of set up. He "fell out" of the performance at those moments when he focussed on setting up the big elements. It would be good to see those elements happening more out of the choreography.
     
  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    So in other words he just needs to be BETTER!!!!
     
  10. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    He's improved everything so much this season, honestly, it's really inspiring. Actually, Patrick and Daisuke both have, but I'm amazed at how much Dai has upped his game in the skating skills and the spinning from just a season ago. I remember how impressed I was with the sequence in his Hip-Hop Swan Lake, and then I look at the back part of the steps in Garden of Souls and it's like he's a whole different skater. Just insane. And he's been beaten up and injured for like a million years! Honestly, so many of the guys have improved so much since Vancouver. It's really wonderful to see. I think Patrick does deserve a lot of credit for that.
     
  11. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I am glad Chan and Takahashi kinda pushed each other to become better. Takahashi has much better spins (and jumps) now and Chan is expressing himself much better as well.
     
  12. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    This is true! My 2 favourites are making each other even better!
     
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    He needs more time. His quad progress has been astounding! Since he came back in 2009he has gone from no success to so much success in both SP and LP. Now there was the change in rules to introduce underrotation and not just automatic downgrade but there is no doubt that there has been tremendous improvement in that jump for him. He has not just benefitted by the new rules but improved the jump. He has been completely serious about getting to where he was at 2009 4CC and is getting there. He has it all!
     
  14. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me while I vomit.
     
  15. arcuel

    arcuel New Member

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    He needs to conquer more than 6 inches.
     
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  16. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    If we compared all of Patrick's and Dai's programs the past two seasons, I am fairly certain that Patrick has made more mistakes. Granted, Patrick's programs are more difficult, hence more mistakes, especially when he's working on a new program. But he's also less experienced than Dai, who has overcome past consistency issues.

    Patrick's 3-A has become amazingly consistent this season, but he's made mistakes on at least one that I remember, as well as mistakes on quads and footwork.

    I'd suggest Takahashi include a 4/3 in the short and aim to skate a completely clean short to take advantage of any mistakes made by Chan. This might give him a good enough lead to have a better chance of beating Chan overall.

    He also needs to study the system and get feedback from judges about how he can improve his PCS and where he leaves points on the table.
     
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I daresay as a top skater in Japan he probably gets plenty of feedback. He probably understands the system very well, it is a matter of applying it.
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I was just watching Chan's and Takahashi's exhibition skates last night and thought to myself: Takahashi is the better performer / artist but Chan is definitely the better skater. Takahashi is effortless in his expressions and Chan is effortless in his glides. If they both push each other into improving on the other person's strength, they can soon become super skaters.
     
  19. skating is fun

    skating is fun Member

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    I`ve seen Dai as a 15-year-old at Nations Cup and he fell all the time. But he recovered quickly and seemed to be unimpressed. Even then you could see his enormous talent and it was great to see how he improved every year.

    He is no doubt one of the two best skaters in the world, but I must admit that for the first time I was a bit disappointed in his free program. The choreo was a little empty and I had flashes of KvdP and Joubert in mind - maybe because of the music, but still. His spins have become better, but are not centered and I think his footwork was not as strong as in the previous years. Usually his programs are extremly interesting, but he needs to find both music and choreo that expresses his style and strengths. And of course he needs the quads.

    Patrick has become extremly confident this season, he grew up (I had to love when I watched his 4CC exhibition, it is so true) and I think is is way superior when it comes to natural skills. He still needs to focus more to avoid stupd mistakes and his spins could be better. But overall he is a notch above Dai in his abilities and will be hard to beat. I have been watching skating for more than 35 years now and for me he is the most talented of all - if he is able to hold it together.
     
  20. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    ^^ This And it is because of them both, men's figure skating is soooo good right now.

    And in the meantime Hanyu will continue to improve leaps and bounds and eventually take over from them both for the OGM Sochi :p

    He is rumoured working a 4S for next year, can't wait!
     
  21. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Keep being as cool! I think the choice of music prevented him of getting better PcS....feel the judges didn't buy into that music, although I feel Dai is the only one that can do it justice. Aranjuez is much more judge pleasing in comparison, though IMO hate that violin version ad nauseum
    About transitions, Dai has more than enough! Every jump except the 2 3A and the quad had transitions going in and out and his footwork is out of this world
    What happens right now, is that Patrick Chan atm is at his peak and he clearly has qualities above the rest of the field that make him almost unbeatable. just compare Takahashi from last season to this one, the advance in his ss and everything else is superb. I don't know what he has to do to have Chan glide, but I still enjoy him the most out of everyone and he's one heck of a skater!
     
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  22. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Kevin van der Perren mentioned in his IN interview that it's easy to see which skaters started out in the 6.0 system and which one grew up with the IJS, and I think it's pretty obvious that he's right; the emphasis in the training would have been very different and it's so difficult to change some things at an older age. But Dai is among the few skaters remaining who made the transition to senior even before the current system came in, and it's harder to see those 6.0 origins in his case. It's a credit to him that he has been able to adjust to the IJS so well.

    I'm not sure what more he can do. His quad may never be as consistent as those of some of the other guys, probably due in large part to the injury he sustained back in 2008, so adding it to the SP or putting in a 4-3 will remain a risk. He's improved his spins. His programs this year have been fantastic and at times should probably have gotten him better marks than they did. Some things are just out of his hands.
     
  23. mikeko

    mikeko Member

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    In FS, Chan was clearly behind the music, and even he admitted that in an interview and said probably that was why he fell and missed the 2A. He got one point of deduction for time violation because he couldn't finish his performance with the music. Yet, he received more points in IN than Takahashi, who was in perfect tune with the music from the first to the last note.

    So, what does Takahashi need to do?
     
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  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    He needs to wear a Patrick Chan mask so the judges think he is Patrick Chan, and thus score him how they would score Patrick Chan for skating that particular performance, which in many cases this season would have been higher than what they scored the real Patrick Chan. However since they know he is not Patrick Chan, outskating the real one still gives no chance whatsoever of victory.
     
  25. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Actually, just the mask wont do it his feet will let him down as an imposter. What he has to do is get Patrick's feet.

    Once he does he will get Patrick's marks.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    He would also have to fall and stumble several times and be sure to keep a zombie expression on his masked face to convince it is Chan. A clean performance or any feel or passion for the performance or music would immediately give away that it is not Chan.
     
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  27. A judge

    A judge New Member

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    But there is more to IN than being in perfect tune with the music.
     
  28. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Daisuke need to develop those Patrick Chan psychedelic eyes capable to hypnotize the judges into submission.

    Or

    ask ISU to enforce the new rule: skater must wear boxes on their head to hide their true identity while doing their bits and pieces, so anonymous judging can meet anonymous skaters!!!

    ...but

    even that won't work! Because you know the ever resourceful Patrick Chan will manage a way to boost those PCS somehow, after all what does PCS stand for except for Patrick Chan Score? It was a destiny made in heaven.

    Takahashi can not fight destiny, so he must over throw it by revolution! 4 revolutions TWICE in the same program infact!! It would be the battle of all ages, but I suspect a young obiwan may soon sneak past them with his own Pooh bear force.

    It would be awesome to watch... so Epsiode 1 - The Phantom Menace has already began. Will we start to experience the Attack of the Patrick clones? Or will we be seeing the Revenge of the Seethe [aka skating forum eyeballs]? Personally I am leaning on A New Hope in Hanyu who will hopefully lead the Empire Strike Back until finally we have Return of the Jedi to defend the figure skating universe again, maybe Plushy or Evan or Lambiel?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
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  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Your definition of interpretation does not seem to align with that of the ISU:
    • Effortless movement in time to the music (timing)
    • Expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm
    • Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music
    Perhaps you can explain how a skater who is behind the music can possibly be doing any of those things?

    The other bullet points are for pairs/dance. There is a longer explanation of the criteria here.
     
  30. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Takahashi in competition cuts the natural rideout of his jumps short. In practice his jumps are nice and clean looking but in competition he rushes his landings and they look stiff and stilted.

    He does need reliable quads in every outing as well. I'm glad he's not playing around with that quad flip in big events anymore. The toe gives him enough trouble. That goes to show how hard those jumps are. Clearly Dai has been doing them for about a decade but they are tough. The improvement in his axel over the past couple years is superb.