What does Caroline Zhang need to do to work her way back up to the podium?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Yazmeen, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    ^ Good point. Let her take the time and be patient. Results won't happen overnight even though some seem to want it to. It worked for Rochette after all. Years of inconsistency and then it suddenly clicked.

    Not saying the same thing will happen with Zhang but it's her only choice if she wants any kind of success in today's skating comps.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Who's her current coach? Still Li Mingzhu?

    I agree about patience. I am sure this period is more frustrating for her than it is to anyone else. I wish her all the best.

    But to digress a little, flutz aside, Rochette has always had solid technique and a good feel for jumping. It wasn't a miracle that she fixed her flutz rather quickly. I am not sure if I can say the same about Zhang. Best of luck I guess.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  3. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I am with you ChibiChibi....I would really love to have her succeed.
     
  4. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  5. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Rochette actually had some of the nicest jumps even before she fixed her flutz, which coated her two seasons of inconsisency with that jump. Carolne in comparison has A LOT more issues with jumping. I'd be beyond impressed if she's able to fix them all. All the best to her!
     
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Because her issues are not jumps. She needs edges...in fact basic skating.
     
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Her jump issues are epic.

    She has technique issues with 4 out of 6 types of jumps. Only her toe and sal jumps are decent. She overtwists her shoulder and hips on the loop takeoff, mule kicks and overtwists her hip on the flip takeoff, mule kicks; overtwists her hip and flutzes the lutz takeoff, and way overskids the axel takeoff.

    Because of her unorthodox technique she doesn't get much size to her jumps at all and virtually no flow in and out. That's a big quality issue.
     
  8. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Her issues ARE jumps, and edges and basic skating on top of it. Mostly jumps though. But even if she fixes her jumps she needs to figure out how to get her PCS up because this season her PCS in the LP internationally has not broken 50, and really to be competitive internationally you want PCS in AT LEAST the mid 50s for the LP, preferably 60+. So she really needs to work on presentation and basic skating and speed and jumps. Lots of things to work on.
     
  9. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    To put things in perspective, Amanda Dobbs and Christina Gao beat Caroline in PCS in the LP at nationals, I think that speaks a lot to the level Caroline's basics are at.
     
  10. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Possibly, but Caroline had the same basics the previous season and got higher PCS. In fact, the Japanese paid her $30,000 at the World Team Trophy for her poor basics. So what happened? Something must have been going on last season that we still don't know about.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  11. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    13-15 y.o. Caroline was a tiny kid with amazing flexibility and spins, she was lovely to watch and in such a young age, so the judges forgave her poor basics and gave her high scores. And she had no reasons to fix her technique then, 'cause her scores were high enough. But now she is a senior skater and it doesn't work. She has grown a lot since last season and obviously not a tiny kid anymore, now judges are demanding with her just like with any other senior lady
     
  12. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    As you said, she sold whatever basics she had to the Japanese for $30,000. :sekret:
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Caroline's technique has always been awful, but her jumps were actually higher when she was a 4'9" wunderkind than they are now. Also speed, you know it's one thing if a tiny little girl skates slowly because she has short legs, but I mean, Caroline is now as tall as Yuna Kim and still skates as slow as the itty-btty junior skaters she towers above. Also, Caroline's PCS have never been much better than they are now, they just seemed better when she was competing in junior competitions where the PCS are always lower.
     
  14. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Last year, Caroline was top American lady at Four Continents. Was she skating in the junior segment of the competition? :confused:
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    What a rip-off! :mad:
     
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Ahead of Dobbs and Gilles. :duh:

    And this was the pre-Olympic 4CCs :duh:

    Dobbs was a nobody, only landed 3toes, 3sals and 2axels, fell and still equalled Zhang's PCS and was only behind by 2.5 points overall. Dobbs actually beat Zhang in PCS too. Get a clue. :duh:

    This refusal to acknowledge her flaws is just :wall:
     
  17. carrot

    carrot Member

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    At 4CC 2009, Caroline beat both Alissa and Rachael.
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Oh that 4th place was very respectable and absolutely the best she could have done.

    Unfortunately her beating Czisny and Flatt was more of a negative reflection on the latter than it was a positive for the former. :lol:

    She got the lowest PCS in the final group and even lost it to Czisny who didn't skate in the final group. So ultimately she didn't medal even though she won TES on the night.

    I am not sure if people realised the trend for the judging: her PCS hasn't been improving much in the past years and her ability to rely on TES has reduced. She needs to work on both sides if she wants to become competitive again.
     
  19. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    With all the talk of PCS, TES, GOE, whatever, .... there is one metric that no ISU rule can distort. That is the standing ovations. Caroline received several in the '08 - '09 season, but none last season. This proves that something was wrong. She did not skate as well last season as she did the season before. I never believed that her lower scores last season were the result of judges making a conscious decision to score her lower.

    Unless maybe the audiences all agreed to subdue their applause. :lol:
     
  20. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Are you trying to suggest that judges only base their scores on the loudness of applause from the audience? Huh??

    In that case maybe the judges are just no longer excited by her flexibility and spins after a couple of years since her debut and are starting to notice her glaring weaknesses just like the rest of the audience. It's not that hard. :lol:
     
  21. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    I do not accept that audiences have changed the way they applaud. What excited them in the '08-'09 season was the same as what excited them in the '09-'10 season. If audiences responded to Caroline better in the '08-'09 season, it was because she skated better, despite her serious flaws.
     
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah exactly. Min-Jung Kwak beat Caroline in TES and wasn't far behind in PCS, Caroline's FS score was about 4 points higher than Min-Jung's at 4CC. I think this 4CCs results really shows who she is on par with right now: Dobbs, Imai, Kwak. That is the reality. She's not on par with Flatt or Nagasu or even Czisny and Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette are head and shoulders ahead of Caroline now, whereas before they weren't. Skaters like Sarah Hecken and Cynthia Phanuef showed at Worlds that if they skate well, they can easily be ahead of Zhang. I mean, Caroline's FS at nationals was not that bad for her and she was still beaten by Czisny, Hughes, Gilles, Liang, Dobbs, and Gao. I think that should be a wakeup call.
     
  23. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.
     
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  24. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and Miss Dobbs was competing at the senior level in two events last season, and placed well in both of them. Pretty good for a first-year senior without even attempting a triple loop or triple lutz!
     
  25. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    And it was the first Senior Championship for Imai, Kwak & Dobbs.
     
  26. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    One thing you have to remember is that Caroline also messed up the triple lutz in the long at 4CC and even more, there isn't much of a point difference between triples such as a sal and a loop (Dobbs does two sals and Caroline does two loops), so the TES isn't must different.

    That's one of my complaints about the judging system now. Under the old system, without a lutz and a flip there was NO WAY you could end up on any podium, but now with the new one in place, it's much easier. There needs to be a much bigger difference between a lutz and a toe--two points is simply too small.
     
  27. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but Caroline's scores were much closer to those girls than to Akiko's and Mao's. Mirai and Rachael had very disappointing LPs at Worlds and still matched Caroline's 4CC LP score. Also Caroline was 11th at nationals, 11th, meaning even as a USFSA darling, the judges see her skating as inferior to that of Liang, Dobbs and Gao.
     
  28. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Yes, that's true. It also seems the USFSA judges see her skating as inferior to how the ISU judges see it. Then again, she is not a USFSA darling. She never, NEVER, got any favors at a national event.
     
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    You have a point, though until this year it didn't stop her from placing well. And I'm not so sure about your ISU claim, I mean Skate Canada?? That was a nightmare, Caroline got like 40 for her PCS in the LP, and at TEB she didn't get great scores either, and in the 08-09 season she was always grumbling about her scores and didn't break 60 for her SP in the last two seasons. I think some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner) but then a lot just get pretty much the same scores at nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu). Caroline would fall into the second category.
     
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    No, actually while some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner), and some get pretty much the same scores nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu), Caroline got always much lower scores at nationals than at internationals. This last season I believe that she did deserve the low scores, although to be fair she has been injured and had back problems, but in the past I think she was robbed a few times at home competition. Caroline being a USFSA darling? That's a joke? :rofl: