What does Caroline Zhang need to do to work her way back up to the podium?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Yazmeen, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Those certainly aren't little things. Caroline basically has to do a complete overhaul in order to revamp her skating technique.
     
  2. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    That was why Mirai stood out to me in 2007 Juniors. She had height and technique. There were UR issues, but with more strength it seemed plausible to think her jumps were going to be something. Zhang seemed to 'whip' her jumps. She never had spring, there was always that body twisting going on. It seemed patently obvious that Mirai was going to emerge the victor over time.
    In addition, Mirai skated with infinitely more speed. Speed is a technique issue. It's not just deciding to skate faster now. Zhang does not have good skating technique. I feel badly because she has the presentation basics to be stunning, but she will always skate at a snail's pace. Very sad.
     
  3. Indra486

    Indra486 Well-Known Member

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    What woman's body? Caroline got taller but she is far from having a "woman's body". Her body did not even change like Bebe Liang's did. You've had Nastia Liukin with a near 9 inch growth spurt and she adjusted pretty well. Perhaps, they're not comparable but I do agree that getting taller did make her technical issues even more glaring. That said, even pre-puberty, those issues were pretty noticeable. Caroline probably would have survived her growth spurt if she had good solid technique to rely on.
     
  4. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Caroline is petite but she doesn't have the body of a little kid, when I say "women's body" I don't mean that said skater necesssarily has big hips and/or boobs, just that they are fully grown and no longer itty bitty. Yuna Kim has a women's body but is very thin. Caroline may have a ruler build, but she's the height and weight of a teenager/adult now, not a little kid, and clearly it is having an effect on her skating. Even skaters with solid technique often have issues when they grow up, I mean look what happened to Kimmie Meissner, she had good technique and an athletic build, not too tall or anything like that, and still couldn't get back to her form from her junior days.
     
  5. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Kimmie Meissner having good jump technique is saying the same thing as Caroline having good jump technique.....

    How can you get say Kimmie has good jump technique when she looks down at the ice right before each jump she does, the ugly toe axel, and the sideways leaning toepick!?!?!
     
  6. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Are you implying that they did worse *because* they switched? I think the more likely scenario is that they switched *because* they were not competitive enough to make the U.S. world team.

    For example, Trifun Zivanovic was 2nd at U.S. Nationals in 1999 and 3rd in 2000, then dropped to 5th in 2001. That's when he decided to switch and represent Serbia. If he hadn't done that, he would have never had the chance to compete at the 2006 Olympics, so it was a good move on his part.
     
  7. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Her technique was horrible. She was able to eek out a ratified 3axel, but still, anyone with skating knowledge would have looked at her at age 15 and said, "Jumps will be gone within six months".
     
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    It's a good thing she's gone to Chris Conte to work on her jump technique.
     
  9. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Not to help divert attention away from the topic but Meissner still said she's not 100% sure whether she'll go on this season. She's preparing show programs though so I assume she'll do the odd show here and there. I wonder if SOI will make her an offer.

    I don't know enough to comment on her jump technique but more than anything her body changed dramatically. I bet that was (more than anything else) the reason for her loss of consistency.
     
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Her technique was not particularly bad, certainly better than Caroline's. I mean it wasn't textbook perfect but it was fine. And her body change wasn't that dramatic, she's a bigger person than Caroline is now but she was never itty bitty as a junior like Caroline was either. Mirai had a more dramatic body change than either girl, she grew like 7-8 inches and gained 40 pounds over the course of two years, and most of the change took place over the course of one, and yet she still managed to get back on track, and quickly at that.
     
  11. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Exactly. So if Mirai can recover from injury, growth and weight gain, I see no reason why Caroline can't as well.
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    :lol: She didn't even have a coach that believed in good technique. And she herself also didn't believe in it - that's why she went back to her.
     
  13. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Kimmie had a bit of a weird landing technique, her weight wasn't completely centered over her knee but was putting too much torque on one side. It was OK before her growth spurt, but afterward it caused knee problems, and then she tried to make minor adjustments to the jumps to compensate, which made them go haywire. Now she's working on relearning the correct alignment so that she can jump without pain.
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but in order to do that Caroline should leave Mingzhu and start from the very beginning, because that's essentially what Mirai did when she went to Frank. Her URs were a problem in her Charlene days, even before the growthspurt when she won nationals, she was URing a lot, the judges just weren't as strict about it then. Mirai made rapid improvement this season, shaky at CoC then much more solid at SC but a bit tentative, then awesome at nats and the olympics. It was a fast turnover.
     
  15. key65man

    key65man New Member

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    Thanks for the info. Interesting. Do you know if Kimmie is working on anything else about her jump(s)? Would appreciate it.
     
  16. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    I guess I am still in the minority on this one. ( Maybe that's where I am the most comfortable. ) But I am going to have to guess that Caroline and Ms. Li made a conscious decision to forestall trying to fix her issues until after the Olympic season. ( I have NO inside information whatsoever, so this is only a guess. )

    Yes it was. Olympics to Worlds was also a fast turnover. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm sure she's been working on looking up rather than down at the ice before her jump takeoffs. She also said that she needed to learn how to get over her right side on her jumps.
     
  18. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Kimmie actually needs to be over her left side, as she's a clockwise jumper.
     
  19. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Must be confusing her with someone else because she's definitely jumping CCW here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8aUzZ9bhc

    :confused:
     
  20. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Since when? She's always jumped CCW for as long as I've seen her skate.
     
  21. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Hey! Her SP at Worlds was awesome! She just had a bad FS, happens to everyone, remember Yuna at SA? Also most people bombed Worlds anyways
     
  22. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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  23. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    ...which makes it an even fastER turnover. :shuffle::yikes::scream:

    :p
     
  24. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda harsh. Even Rachael "The Rock" Flatt made a number of mistakes at Worlds, not to mention Queen Yu Na and a truckload of other skaters. 7th is still a great Worlds debut.
     
  25. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I just thought of something, maybe Caroline is slow because her legs are kind of short? I was watching videos of her and she has a very long torso (gives her an elegant look) and proportionally, her legs and arms are shorter. Compared to other skaters of the same approximate height, Mao, Yuna, Mirai, Alissa, etc, they all appear to have much longer legs than Caroline and are all faster.
     
  26. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, brain fade for me. Mea culpa.
     
  27. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    I don’t know the exact mechanics, but normally when skater does a combination, the second jump ( and third and fourth ) must be a loop or toe loop. However, if a skater can jump in both directions, it becomes possible to have something else be the second jump. That’s something I would pay money to see.

    But if you nail the clock to the ceiling, the hands rotate in the same direction Kimmie jumps. :)

    I can just imagine all of you trying to figure that one out. :D
     
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Counterclockwise (CCW) rotators (the majority of skaters) land jumps on their right back outside (RBO) edge. This landing edge could be the takeoff edge of a reverse (CW direction) Lutz. Clockwise rotators land jumps on their left back outside (LBO) edge. This landing edge could be the takeoff edge of a reverse (CCW) Lutz.

    Rohene Ward performed a reverse double Axel (clockwise direction for him) to regular double Axel (CCW) sequence in this 2002 exhibition (after the 2-minute mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  29. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    If that were the case, skaters like Naomi Nari Nam and Midori Ito should have been very slow skaters, but they weren't. ;)
     
    Sylvia and (deleted member) like this.
  30. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Fair point. Although when your legs make up so much of your height like someone like Yuna's do, it probably makes things a little easier. My dad and I walk super fast and my mom thinks its because both of us have really long legs (though neither of us is tall). Watching Caroline, it's actually quite amazing she can land her jumps as often as she does considering most of them she enters at almost a complete standstill. She must be really strong.