What does Ashley Wagner need to do to move up the ranks even further?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    What can she do, technically or PCS-wise, to improve further and directly challenge a clean Carolina Kostner, a Miki Ando who can score around 200 pts., or even Yu Na (if she comes back)?? Anything? Or will she just be an outside medal shot in the future if these ladies come back in great shape? In other words, is she skating close or at to her full potential?

    A glaring problem is the flutz, but will she actually ever fix that? Otherwise, I see her needing to nail the 2x-3t or 3-3 consistently and cleanly.

    Can she do anything to get higher levels on non-jump elements?

    Will her PCS bump up a bit next season internationally due to her new status as a world frontrunner and the US #1? Is there anything she can do to please intl. judges and get better PCS?
  2. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Finally getting her jumps under control where she consistently does NOT two-foot the landings will help. Skating clean short programs will also help a lot.

    She's got the goods, she's shown that she can get past her "almost" problems and perform beautifully, now she has to keep skating clean consistently in both programs and get rid of the little things, like the two-foots that hurt her scores. I think if she can fix up these areas, it will help her PCS and build a good reputation as a strong skater.
  3. BittyBug

    BittyBug Quadless

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    As a long time fan, it was great to see Ashley have such a break-through season. To bump it up a notch, fixing her flutz is a given (if she can manage to do that), but I also think she could improve her power. Watch how many crossovers it takes for her to cover the end of the rink - she could get deeper in her knees and learn to better use her blade and body to extract more power from her stroking.

    I think the key to her future success will also lie in her choreography. She seems to have excelled playing a character this season, so it will be interesting to see what she and her team come up with for next year.
  4. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    It's strange for me as I enjoy watching her but I don't feel a connection to her like Ando, Kostner, Kim or Asada.
    I can't quite work out why.
  5. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I agree about this - she reminds me of Kristi Yamaguchi: nice programmes, good jumps, everything done clean, nice and well recently, but it just leaves me emotionally cold. :shuffle:
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I guess the 2-foots are right now her biggest problem, but not nearly the problem they were even a year ago. The ur /2ft. on the 3toe of the 2x-3t cost her a few points at worlds and maybe a medal (even with the flawed SP). Same with the SP's; much, much better and not nearly the bugaboo they were just a season ago, but when she needed to go clean the most (at Worlds) she faltered.

    I think the flutz is chronic and will stay that way. Any way to skip lutz and get more points, though? She repeats the flip and loop and otherwise performs every triple save the axel. I don't think another clean 2x from Ashley will equal as many points as a flutz.

    -----

    I guess cleaning up the 2-ft's and going cleaner would put her past skaters like Suzuki (maybe) and Leonova, but she would probably need to do longer term work like what someone above suggested - more knees and blade work thereby generating more speed - to catch skaters like Kostner et al
  7. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    She just needs to continue her great work from this past season and focus on clean SPs. :D
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    She needs to work on her edge work. Her edges tend to be a little labroed and it really becomes evident in her step sequence (and work on a level 4 step sequence which pretty much every top lady seems to be getting these days). On top of that, her non-jump elements (spins) could be improved even more. When you look at the protocols at Worlds, everyone in the top 5 was getting +2s for their non-jump elements (namely their spins), while Ashley got mostly +1s. I think the move to Nicks actually made her spins slower...

    And I'm surprised people get emotional value from Miki's performances and don't from Ashley's........... That is a big :confused: for me.
  9. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    If I remember correctly I think she got a level 4 step sequence at world team trophy. Agreed on her spins, they got slower the last two seasons but form has improved I think.
  10. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I think she needs to just listen to Mr. Nicks, and do whatever he says. He seems to have worked magic with her this year.......hopefully that trajectory will continue.
  11. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Ashley needs to simply continue to build on her mental strength and confidence. We have seen how maturity and conviction in presentation and performance, during the most pressure packed moments, is what leads certain athletes to the top. I believe she is such a skater. Sure she could continue to build her technical arsenal. But I always believed she had it "in her." Is mostly a matter of letting it show when it matters. In my book, she's well on her way.
  12. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    One other thing too is that she needs to work on making her double axel bigger. The double axel can rack up a lot of points and when your competitors are pretty much getting +2s for theirs, you should too. She doesn't step up much into it and so she jumps a little low on it and has gotten it downgraded a couple of times in the past.
  13. iggie

    iggie New Member

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    do well in the short program and continue to do well in the long
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She needs to improve her jumps further. She still gives up edge deductions and is prone to two foots and underrotations. I would like by some miracle to see the triple lutz-triple loop she had in 2008 make a comeback too.

    She really needs to improve as a short program skater. She rarely does clean shorts, and her programs and elements in the short are never as strong as the long. If she continues to do so so short programs she wont make the mark she wasnt on the World level.

    The good news for her is I highly doubt Kim or Ando will be a worry anytime in the future.
  15. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    -Improve levels on spins
    -More consistent non-2 footed jumps
    -Stronger short programs
    -The right music (key because so many people loved Black Swan)
  16. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    For me, it's quite simple.

    STOP MESSING UP THE SHORT PROGRAM!!

    It would help to stop 2-footing jumps as well, although she HAS improved in this area over last year.
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    1. stroking and edging
    2. speed
    3. spin speed
    4. fix the lazy free foot (already much improved to be honest)
  18. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Become more poised.
    I recommend her to take a step back when she finds herself wanting something too much.
  19. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Ash needed this year to feel like "a big girl". She was a contender at major events and even placed first in some big ones. The power in her jumps needs to be transferred to her stroking. Her steps are short and rigid instead of long powerful and edgy. Gaining power on the push and the pull of the blade will be useful.

    I understand that she really likes phil Mills but i think her programs were underdeveloped. She could also use some help in her facial expressions as well as interpretation of bigger and more powerful pieces. Ashley's yeah... i'm so happy and seee..i remembered to smile really really big expression is just not appropriate for every selection. All in all, I just think she has a little more maturing to do. One thing that Lori Nichol is better at than some choreographers is teaching a woman to skate like a mature woman. Exploring the power but femininity of a woman will help Ashley. Not saying that Lori is the answer but finding a style identity for ashley will be important
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Wow, Hersh has hidden talents! ;)

    I think and hope the opportunity of skating on the CSOI tour will be beneficial for Ashley's development as a performer.
  21. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    HAHAHAHAH... I CHANGED IT. lol. This is what happens if i post in the morning before i drink coffee:rofl:
  22. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    Very good point. Skaters used to have many more options to perform in front of a tour crowd. It will be nice to see if this helps her relate to the crowd more.

    Agreed also about her double axel being low, though I think that is specific technique to try and have enough speed on the landing to do the triple toe after.
  23. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    She needs to keep doing what she's doing, but also really work on projecting a gorgeous woman on the ice. (which she already is and has, but do it even more so she stands out above the rest for this reason)

    This sounds very shallow, but Ashley is a gorgeous girl. Looks will help PCS, and I personally find Ashley to be one of the most beautiful girls out there so if she really plays up to that a bit more, work on fine tuning her skating skills, get the jumps even better, she's going to be a big-time skating star and her PCS will always be there. Technically fine tune what she has, work on the 3/3 in the SP, but she's a skater that can use her new maturity and use it to her advantage over all of these wonder-kids that will be coming up. I honestly think Ashley is going to be a medal contender in Sochi even with all of the new faces as long as she stays on the path that she's on. She did such a great job this year and blossomed into a brand new competitor/person, I hope to see her go even further the next few years. She's worked really hard and deserves all the great things that are coming her way. :respec:
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think it has something to do with emphasizing each move. Some moves should be dramatic, some should be understated. She tends to skate along at an even pace. I don't know if that is the skater or the choreographer. It's what Peggy Fleming used to call making each move "look important".

    Eliminate the two-footing goes without saying.

    Maybe work on extending more and holding it longer? Let her personality show through.

    She's pretty good the way she is.
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I think she's proved that she's capable of going toe-to-toe with the best of them...it's just the little mistakes that cost her this year.

    First and foremost is getting that SP under control. It's been her undoing for so long and she managed to get over that hump at nationals and again at 4CC, but she's got to be consistent in the SP in order to be in position to make a run at gold. She's a strong LP skater (which is rare) so that's a good thing, but she's got to give herself a chance by skating a decent SP.

    Next, I'd say try to work on the lutz though at this point I don't know if that's something she can fix or is even worth fixing (given the time it takes to rework the technique). The rest of her jumps are solid so she needs to focus on keeping them that way. She's still a bit prone to 2-footing her jumps but she's greatly reduced the number of calls this year...if that trend continues hopefully there will be even fewer next season.

    To really compete, she will probably want to add a 3-3 to her repertoire as well as a consistent 2a-3t. Her 3f-3t is close...she just needs to keep working on it to get it all the way around. Same thing goes for her 2a-3t. That will give her the technical boost she'll need to compete with the girls who have 3-3s or who gain higher PCS than she does.

    I agree about her spins. I actually think her spins are positioned nicely; it's the speed she needs to work on...perhaps a bit more complexity in her combo spin too. But her layback and flying spins are good...

    I think her speed is good but, like people say, she could use a bit more power in her stroking. That's something she can definitely improve with practice. Her jumps are nicely sized, cover good distance and tend to have nice speed and a decent riding edge out of them. Her skating isn't as effortless-looking as Carolina or Mao in terms of her glide across the ice, but she doesn't look labored either. It's an area she can improve in but I don't think it's a weakness.

    I love the energy, power and confidence she projects when she skates. She's always had that but it was a bit out of control; now everything is calm and measured and that really helps her presentation. A big challenge will be finding new music and creating new programs that will connect with audiences and judges the way her Black Swan program did.

    Ashley's go-get-'em attitude really pushed her to the front this season. She's put in the work and you can visibly see her improvements. It's so refreshing to see a US lady who projects confidence and drive...I've missed that and that's what really turned me into an Ashley fan this season. She's the US lady to beat next season and she's the first US champ since Kwan who I'd say has a great chance of winning back-to-back titles. Hopefully she'll have a good summer, work on the areas she needs to work on and come back even stronger next year.

    I'm proud of her. :D
  26. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I think Wagner just has a different style, different strengths than Kostner/Ando/Asada. Instead of trying to mold her to be more like them, her strengths need to be showcased. She's a more athletic/power type skater than those three and if you give her music that fits well, pretty sure she could be amazing. More important, however, is to do further cleanup on the jumps. Although better than before, she is still 2-footing on occasion and getting tech calls.

    Wagner is a good freeskater and this works STRONGLY to her advantage. However, she is only an above-average short program skater and conversely, this works to her disadvantage. If there is only ONE thing I would suggest, it would be to make a statement in the SP, 3-3 and all, and let the FS roll as usual. If she can create a memorable SP, I think she will be on many podiums to come.
  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I would pretty much say Ashley is a well-balanced and all around good skater. She just has a few minor issues to work on if she wants to go from great to outstanding and wants to get to the top (besides skating clean shorts consistently).
  28. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. The SP has been her biggest hurdle for the entirety of her career. She needs to get a sp next season that is equally as impressive as her long and she needs to be able to skate it CLEAN every time. If she can do that, I can see her collecting a bucket full of medals throughout the season.

    She does need to stop the two-footing habit (it has improved significantly) but two-foots, provided the rotation is there, are not treated as harshly as they were in the old system where a two-footed jump was not supposed to count at all.
  29. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I really hope Ashley does well next year. Being the "almost" girl has really seemed to work to her advantage in the long run. I know she was devastated when she did not make the Olympic team in 2010...but look at where Mirai and Rachel are now. Nowhere. And Ashley is skating the best she has ever skated, national champion, 4CC's champion, and has the highest placement at the world championships for a US lady since Kimmie Meissiner in 2007. I think if she keeps making improvements, keeps skating like she is, and just gets that short program in check she will be a podium contender every time she skates. GO ASHLEY WOO HOO!!! I was such a non fan and now i am because of her hard work! It is just so admirable.
  30. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    That's not to infer, of course, that they've stagnated BECAUSE they were on the '10 Olympic team. After 2002, Cohen made improvements after finishing 4th and came back to win silver in '06. Unfortunately, however, we're not seeing the same trajectory with Nagasu. It's not too late for her yet, but time is beginning to run out and this is the final season she has to really make her mark. (As for Flatt, I think that was the farthest she was going to go, frankly.)

    Back to Wagner- it's great that she has made the progress she has, but one has to wonder if she has any staying power, or whether this is her peak as a skater. That remains to be seen.

    P.S. I remember in an interview some time ago (forgot which magazine or website it was) that Wagner said she wanted to be on top of the podium in Sochi and people effectively laughed at her. Is is such a far-fetched dream for her after all?
  31. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Being on top of the podium in Sochi still seems a bit of a far fetched dream to be honest. She has Kostner, going into 2013 probably 2 or 3 Russians, Suzuki, all ahead of her. If Ando comes back strong, Asada gets her act together, or if Kim comes back even not so strong (her worst self nearly won the 2011 Worlds, she is in a different category), then them as well, although frankly I think 0 of the 3 will happen. In the U.S she has Gold, Zhang, and if she gets a fire again Nagasu all on her tail. Still with the determination she is showing and her recent improvement anything is possible.

    I think she was robbed of the 2008 National title and that set her career back for years to come.
  32. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    There are MANY what ifs for all the ladies mentioned. Kostner and Suzuki are getting up there in age, the young Russians are exactly that, Asada has been skating poorly for seasons it seems. If Kim comes back, agreed she is in a class of her own.

    The important thing is that she keeps improving. She needs to start the next season with the technical content she ended this season with.

    She most likely was robbed of that title in 2008, though I don't know if she would have been able to handle the pressure of that title at the time. Agreed that it did set her back for years.
  33. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how being robbed of the 2008 US title (assuming she was in fact robbed) set Ashley back. I hate that victim mentality. Ashley had a chance to shine at 2008 Worlds -- didn't happen. She had chances to win 2009 and 2010 US Nationals -- didn't happen. If anything, maybe her coaching arrangements held her back. I'm glad she switched to Mr. Nicks because everything seems to be coming together for her now.

    As for next season, I think Ashley should continue to think of herself as the chaser instead of the chased, even though she is the reigning US Champion, and not let herself be consumed by the pressures of defending the title. I'm sure Mr. Nicks has it all well in hand. :)
  34. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Ashley wasn't robbed in '08. Mirai had a fantastic short and a very good free to take the win.

    The fact of the matter is...if Ashley hadn't had a double loop downgraded in the free skate in 2008, she would have been the champion.
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think she had any chance to win Nationals 2010. Her long program was about the best she could do and she finished 8 points behind Flatt and would have behind Nagasu too without the URs. Her short program would have been a good 4-5 points back of Flatt, Nagasu, and Cohen even without the lutz fall too. Maybe she could have eked out the team over Nagasu with a clean short and long only due to the 3 URs of Nagasu in the long, but that is it. She wasnt the best skater at that point, her improvements just hadnt kept pace with someone like Flatt's around then, and didnt have the momentum or favor with the judges of some of the others either around then. 2009 was her big chance, and 2012 was really her first big chance since then. 2011 it seemed like she was literally on the way out and wasnt even a U.S contender anymore.

    Nagasu did not have a good free in 2008, she had a fall, another UR, and a couple of other mistakes, and probably should have even been below Zhang in the LP. Wagner's LP even with the one minor mistake should have easily beaten Flatt who she placed behind, and her short program should have been closer to Nagasu and further ahead of Flatt too. She was doing a triple lutz-triple loop that year!
  36. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    How should it have "easily beaten" Flatt? Flatt's FS was flawless with seven triple jumps. Like I said, that downgraded double loop was a killer for Wagner.

    Also, Nagasu had exactly two mistakes in that free skate. A fall on a double axel and a downgrade on the back end of a triple lutz-triple toe combination. She still landed five clean triple jumps, so I would consider that a good free skate.
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Since Ashley's presentation is way better than Flatt, since Ashley is much faster and more exciting than Flatt, and since Ashley had a much harder triple-triple, and since Ashley also landed 7 triples. For Ashley to skate that well herself and even be doing a triple lutz-triple loop and lose the LP by several points to Flatt whose only asset was ever consistency (and decent jump content) because of one tiny mistake is a joke. Thankfully at Nationals this year the judges finally got their acts together and scored Flatt appopriately for the first time ever at Nationals probably.
  38. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    You left out spins and spirals (which counted for more in those days). Ashley really should have won the LP that year and been no lower than 2nd overall.
  39. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Be that as it may, 2008 Nationals did not set Ashley back for years.
  40. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    landing on one foot.