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What does Ashley Wagner need to do to move up the ranks even further?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    What can she do, technically or PCS-wise, to improve further and directly challenge a clean Carolina Kostner, a Miki Ando who can score around 200 pts., or even Yu Na (if she comes back)?? Anything? Or will she just be an outside medal shot in the future if these ladies come back in great shape? In other words, is she skating close or at to her full potential?

    A glaring problem is the flutz, but will she actually ever fix that? Otherwise, I see her needing to nail the 2x-3t or 3-3 consistently and cleanly.

    Can she do anything to get higher levels on non-jump elements?

    Will her PCS bump up a bit next season internationally due to her new status as a world frontrunner and the US #1? Is there anything she can do to please intl. judges and get better PCS?
     
  2. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Finally getting her jumps under control where she consistently does NOT two-foot the landings will help. Skating clean short programs will also help a lot.

    She's got the goods, she's shown that she can get past her "almost" problems and perform beautifully, now she has to keep skating clean consistently in both programs and get rid of the little things, like the two-foots that hurt her scores. I think if she can fix up these areas, it will help her PCS and build a good reputation as a strong skater.
     
  3. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    As a long time fan, it was great to see Ashley have such a break-through season. To bump it up a notch, fixing her flutz is a given (if she can manage to do that), but I also think she could improve her power. Watch how many crossovers it takes for her to cover the end of the rink - she could get deeper in her knees and learn to better use her blade and body to extract more power from her stroking.

    I think the key to her future success will also lie in her choreography. She seems to have excelled playing a character this season, so it will be interesting to see what she and her team come up with for next year.
     
  4. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    It's strange for me as I enjoy watching her but I don't feel a connection to her like Ando, Kostner, Kim or Asada.
    I can't quite work out why.
     
  5. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I agree about this - she reminds me of Kristi Yamaguchi: nice programmes, good jumps, everything done clean, nice and well recently, but it just leaves me emotionally cold. :shuffle:
     
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I guess the 2-foots are right now her biggest problem, but not nearly the problem they were even a year ago. The ur /2ft. on the 3toe of the 2x-3t cost her a few points at worlds and maybe a medal (even with the flawed SP). Same with the SP's; much, much better and not nearly the bugaboo they were just a season ago, but when she needed to go clean the most (at Worlds) she faltered.

    I think the flutz is chronic and will stay that way. Any way to skip lutz and get more points, though? She repeats the flip and loop and otherwise performs every triple save the axel. I don't think another clean 2x from Ashley will equal as many points as a flutz.

    -----

    I guess cleaning up the 2-ft's and going cleaner would put her past skaters like Suzuki (maybe) and Leonova, but she would probably need to do longer term work like what someone above suggested - more knees and blade work thereby generating more speed - to catch skaters like Kostner et al
     
  7. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness TAT-wannabe

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    She just needs to continue her great work from this past season and focus on clean SPs. :D
     
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    She needs to work on her edge work. Her edges tend to be a little labroed and it really becomes evident in her step sequence (and work on a level 4 step sequence which pretty much every top lady seems to be getting these days). On top of that, her non-jump elements (spins) could be improved even more. When you look at the protocols at Worlds, everyone in the top 5 was getting +2s for their non-jump elements (namely their spins), while Ashley got mostly +1s. I think the move to Nicks actually made her spins slower...

    And I'm surprised people get emotional value from Miki's performances and don't from Ashley's........... That is a big :confused: for me.
     
  9. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    If I remember correctly I think she got a level 4 step sequence at world team trophy. Agreed on her spins, they got slower the last two seasons but form has improved I think.
     
  10. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I think she needs to just listen to Mr. Nicks, and do whatever he says. He seems to have worked magic with her this year.......hopefully that trajectory will continue.
     
  11. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Ashley needs to simply continue to build on her mental strength and confidence. We have seen how maturity and conviction in presentation and performance, during the most pressure packed moments, is what leads certain athletes to the top. I believe she is such a skater. Sure she could continue to build her technical arsenal. But I always believed she had it "in her." Is mostly a matter of letting it show when it matters. In my book, she's well on her way.
     
  12. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    One other thing too is that she needs to work on making her double axel bigger. The double axel can rack up a lot of points and when your competitors are pretty much getting +2s for theirs, you should too. She doesn't step up much into it and so she jumps a little low on it and has gotten it downgraded a couple of times in the past.
     
  13. iggie

    iggie Well-Known Member

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    do well in the short program and continue to do well in the long
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She needs to improve her jumps further. She still gives up edge deductions and is prone to two foots and underrotations. I would like by some miracle to see the triple lutz-triple loop she had in 2008 make a comeback too.

    She really needs to improve as a short program skater. She rarely does clean shorts, and her programs and elements in the short are never as strong as the long. If she continues to do so so short programs she wont make the mark she wasnt on the World level.

    The good news for her is I highly doubt Kim or Ando will be a worry anytime in the future.
     
  15. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    -Improve levels on spins
    -More consistent non-2 footed jumps
    -Stronger short programs
    -The right music (key because so many people loved Black Swan)
     
  16. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    For me, it's quite simple.

    STOP MESSING UP THE SHORT PROGRAM!!

    It would help to stop 2-footing jumps as well, although she HAS improved in this area over last year.
     
  17. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    1. stroking and edging
    2. speed
    3. spin speed
    4. fix the lazy free foot (already much improved to be honest)
     
  18. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Become more poised.
    I recommend her to take a step back when she finds herself wanting something too much.
     
  19. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    Ash needed this year to feel like "a big girl". She was a contender at major events and even placed first in some big ones. The power in her jumps needs to be transferred to her stroking. Her steps are short and rigid instead of long powerful and edgy. Gaining power on the push and the pull of the blade will be useful.

    I understand that she really likes phil Mills but i think her programs were underdeveloped. She could also use some help in her facial expressions as well as interpretation of bigger and more powerful pieces. Ashley's yeah... i'm so happy and seee..i remembered to smile really really big expression is just not appropriate for every selection. All in all, I just think she has a little more maturing to do. One thing that Lori Nichol is better at than some choreographers is teaching a woman to skate like a mature woman. Exploring the power but femininity of a woman will help Ashley. Not saying that Lori is the answer but finding a style identity for ashley will be important
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Club comp. season is here!

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    Wow, Hersh has hidden talents! ;)

    I think and hope the opportunity of skating on the CSOI tour will be beneficial for Ashley's development as a performer.
     
  21. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Well-Known Member

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    HAHAHAHAH... I CHANGED IT. lol. This is what happens if i post in the morning before i drink coffee:rofl:
     
  22. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    Very good point. Skaters used to have many more options to perform in front of a tour crowd. It will be nice to see if this helps her relate to the crowd more.

    Agreed also about her double axel being low, though I think that is specific technique to try and have enough speed on the landing to do the triple toe after.
     
  23. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

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    She needs to keep doing what she's doing, but also really work on projecting a gorgeous woman on the ice. (which she already is and has, but do it even more so she stands out above the rest for this reason)

    This sounds very shallow, but Ashley is a gorgeous girl. Looks will help PCS, and I personally find Ashley to be one of the most beautiful girls out there so if she really plays up to that a bit more, work on fine tuning her skating skills, get the jumps even better, she's going to be a big-time skating star and her PCS will always be there. Technically fine tune what she has, work on the 3/3 in the SP, but she's a skater that can use her new maturity and use it to her advantage over all of these wonder-kids that will be coming up. I honestly think Ashley is going to be a medal contender in Sochi even with all of the new faces as long as she stays on the path that she's on. She did such a great job this year and blossomed into a brand new competitor/person, I hope to see her go even further the next few years. She's worked really hard and deserves all the great things that are coming her way. :respec:
     
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think it has something to do with emphasizing each move. Some moves should be dramatic, some should be understated. She tends to skate along at an even pace. I don't know if that is the skater or the choreographer. It's what Peggy Fleming used to call making each move "look important".

    Eliminate the two-footing goes without saying.

    Maybe work on extending more and holding it longer? Let her personality show through.

    She's pretty good the way she is.
     
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I think she's proved that she's capable of going toe-to-toe with the best of them...it's just the little mistakes that cost her this year.

    First and foremost is getting that SP under control. It's been her undoing for so long and she managed to get over that hump at nationals and again at 4CC, but she's got to be consistent in the SP in order to be in position to make a run at gold. She's a strong LP skater (which is rare) so that's a good thing, but she's got to give herself a chance by skating a decent SP.

    Next, I'd say try to work on the lutz though at this point I don't know if that's something she can fix or is even worth fixing (given the time it takes to rework the technique). The rest of her jumps are solid so she needs to focus on keeping them that way. She's still a bit prone to 2-footing her jumps but she's greatly reduced the number of calls this year...if that trend continues hopefully there will be even fewer next season.

    To really compete, she will probably want to add a 3-3 to her repertoire as well as a consistent 2a-3t. Her 3f-3t is close...she just needs to keep working on it to get it all the way around. Same thing goes for her 2a-3t. That will give her the technical boost she'll need to compete with the girls who have 3-3s or who gain higher PCS than she does.

    I agree about her spins. I actually think her spins are positioned nicely; it's the speed she needs to work on...perhaps a bit more complexity in her combo spin too. But her layback and flying spins are good...

    I think her speed is good but, like people say, she could use a bit more power in her stroking. That's something she can definitely improve with practice. Her jumps are nicely sized, cover good distance and tend to have nice speed and a decent riding edge out of them. Her skating isn't as effortless-looking as Carolina or Mao in terms of her glide across the ice, but she doesn't look labored either. It's an area she can improve in but I don't think it's a weakness.

    I love the energy, power and confidence she projects when she skates. She's always had that but it was a bit out of control; now everything is calm and measured and that really helps her presentation. A big challenge will be finding new music and creating new programs that will connect with audiences and judges the way her Black Swan program did.

    Ashley's go-get-'em attitude really pushed her to the front this season. She's put in the work and you can visibly see her improvements. It's so refreshing to see a US lady who projects confidence and drive...I've missed that and that's what really turned me into an Ashley fan this season. She's the US lady to beat next season and she's the first US champ since Kwan who I'd say has a great chance of winning back-to-back titles. Hopefully she'll have a good summer, work on the areas she needs to work on and come back even stronger next year.

    I'm proud of her. :D
     
  26. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I think Wagner just has a different style, different strengths than Kostner/Ando/Asada. Instead of trying to mold her to be more like them, her strengths need to be showcased. She's a more athletic/power type skater than those three and if you give her music that fits well, pretty sure she could be amazing. More important, however, is to do further cleanup on the jumps. Although better than before, she is still 2-footing on occasion and getting tech calls.

    Wagner is a good freeskater and this works STRONGLY to her advantage. However, she is only an above-average short program skater and conversely, this works to her disadvantage. If there is only ONE thing I would suggest, it would be to make a statement in the SP, 3-3 and all, and let the FS roll as usual. If she can create a memorable SP, I think she will be on many podiums to come.
     
  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I would pretty much say Ashley is a well-balanced and all around good skater. She just has a few minor issues to work on if she wants to go from great to outstanding and wants to get to the top (besides skating clean shorts consistently).
     
  28. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. The SP has been her biggest hurdle for the entirety of her career. She needs to get a sp next season that is equally as impressive as her long and she needs to be able to skate it CLEAN every time. If she can do that, I can see her collecting a bucket full of medals throughout the season.

    She does need to stop the two-footing habit (it has improved significantly) but two-foots, provided the rotation is there, are not treated as harshly as they were in the old system where a two-footed jump was not supposed to count at all.
     
  29. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I really hope Ashley does well next year. Being the "almost" girl has really seemed to work to her advantage in the long run. I know she was devastated when she did not make the Olympic team in 2010...but look at where Mirai and Rachel are now. Nowhere. And Ashley is skating the best she has ever skated, national champion, 4CC's champion, and has the highest placement at the world championships for a US lady since Kimmie Meissiner in 2007. I think if she keeps making improvements, keeps skating like she is, and just gets that short program in check she will be a podium contender every time she skates. GO ASHLEY WOO HOO!!! I was such a non fan and now i am because of her hard work! It is just so admirable.
     
  30. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    That's not to infer, of course, that they've stagnated BECAUSE they were on the '10 Olympic team. After 2002, Cohen made improvements after finishing 4th and came back to win silver in '06. Unfortunately, however, we're not seeing the same trajectory with Nagasu. It's not too late for her yet, but time is beginning to run out and this is the final season she has to really make her mark. (As for Flatt, I think that was the farthest she was going to go, frankly.)

    Back to Wagner- it's great that she has made the progress she has, but one has to wonder if she has any staying power, or whether this is her peak as a skater. That remains to be seen.

    P.S. I remember in an interview some time ago (forgot which magazine or website it was) that Wagner said she wanted to be on top of the podium in Sochi and people effectively laughed at her. Is is such a far-fetched dream for her after all?