What do Volosozhar-Trankov need to win the gold in Sochi?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously they have to skate clean in the actual competition, but other than that, what else do they need to beat the other pairs?

    For a pair in their first year together, they looked very good in 2011. IMO there are areas where they can improve. They seemed very technical this past year, and it was understandable. They had to get the moves down- different throwing technique, getting the unison down, etc. For a first year pair, their unison was quite good, but it could be better. I would like to see a better line (though under COP it's not that important), and a better connection between them. Tatiana has always been strong technically and I hope she will maintain that. We don't know yet how they will react to pressure. S&S and Pang & Tong cannot be ignored, as they have been on top for years. What do V&T need to do to surpass them? Also other pairs that are going to develop- Sui-Han, and young Russian pairs could challenge them. What will give them the edge? Will skating consistently clean give them the edge by becoming the judges' favorites? Do they need more difficult throws, jumps, etc.? Certainly not the quad throw since it's high risk and not enough reward under the COP.
  2. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    I think they should just continue to improve the way they did last season. They still need a bit more time to feel each other better and skate more like a pair, try different styles in their programs to see what suits them better... Technically they are already good enough to win anything they want. Well, maybe they should add a 3F throw, but even without it they are more than able to compete with S/S or the Chinese
  3. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Show up...
  4. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    :eek:
    Any names? No other Russian pair can challenge them in this or the next season.

    +1000.
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    They need more complex choreography. I think if they can get that, they will be real challengers for the gold. They seem more consistent than Aliona and Robin.
  6. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I agree, although they have only had two competitions as a pair so that really isn't enough to judge consistency and he did mess up the 3S at worlds. They will need to have a couple of seasons under their belts before consistency can be judged properly.
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Yep I think that is it.

    One season together and they are already amazing. Give them to Sochi and they should be fabulatastic.
  8. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    They should hope that the German retires before Sochi :p.

    V/T did very well in their debut last season, but let see how they'll do this season when more pressure will be on them to at least duplicate their Worlds' silver medal.
  9. Libertango

    Libertango New Member

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    They should add more transitions once they get really confortable with all the elements. Like the triple twist where they said they only get Level 1 because of the lack of difficult entrance. Their lifts are a little cautious but it's perfecly normal for such a new team.

    Overall I'm not too worried because from their interviews, they seem totally aware of what they need to work on.
  10. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    The problem with S/S is they can be the team that skated last year or the team that skated during the Olympics. You never know. My fondest hope is that V/T and S/S will push each other and we'll see fantastic pairs skating all the way through 2014. And, for that matter, I hope V/T pushes the rest of the Russian pairs teams as well.

    I don't have a lot of hope regarding the young Chinese team. I think she'll outgrow him fairly quickly and they'll fade away. Either that or the attempts at quad throws will injure her. :(
  11. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I guess so.. maybe I've just noticed the extreme inconsistency of Aliona and Robin, lol.
  12. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    S/S have been around for a while. It's impossible to be in peak form year after year, so it's hard to know how they'll hold up by the time Sochi rolls around.
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think there are several young Russian pairs that can develop in two years (though the RSF may try to hold them down in order to keep V&T as the top Russian pair for 2014).

    Gerboldt & Enberg have a lot of promise and a great coach in Tamara. It typically takes her only a couple of years to bring a pair into top form.

    Bazarova-Larianov: They have shown progress each year and they are moving up. They need more consistency and more experience, but they are in a position to challenge V&T next year if they continue to grow.

    Kawaguchi-Smirnov can challenge V&T right now, but they are not young anymore, and I don't think they will be even around in 2014.

    Stobova (sp?) & Klimov have time to develop.

    My favorite pair Iliushechkina-Maisuradze could become very good but they have not support from their fed, so they should be looking at 2018, and not 2014.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont see them having that tough a time of it to be honest. Savchenko & Szolkowy will definitely want the Oly Gold after their Vancouver dissapointment but he will be pretty old by then, and they will likely need perfect performances to have a chance against V&T by then which given their consistency issues are rare. Pang & Tong will also be pretty old by then and they are no Shen & Zhou. I dont see them getting better at this point, she has always had inconsistent jumps, and V&T already beat them easily at Worlds this year.

    The others? I dont see Sui & Han rising so quickly to be gold contenders by 2014. Who knows if this team even has that much of a future, if she grows much more they are toast. V&T will definitely not be passed by a younger Russian team before Sochi, not a chance unless they completely implode. Their only domestic competition is possibly Kavaguti & Smirnov, but I dont see them winning back favor over V&T at this point.

    If they continue to do the right things they will most likely win Sochi gold. It would be surprising if they dont.
  15. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I love Gerboldt and Enbert, but I don't see them catching up to or passing V/T.
  16. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    She said Dmitriev is actually their coach, she helps them but don't forget they are not just a new pair; but she is new to pairs skating only a year so it's going to take her a little longer than normal. I don't see them going to Sochi, maybe 2018 is a more realistic goal for them.

    I don't think next year, maybe in a 2 or 3 years.

    Smirnov is actually a year younger than Trankov and even though Kavaguti is a few years older than Volosozhar they both started competing in the same year, so they have been around a while. If anyone is not going to be around (especially due to age) it will be the Germans or Chinese.

    I'm sure that's what Ingo (and many others) thought about S/S after worlds in 09 and looked what happen to them...you just never know what can happen.....
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The moment Shen & Zhou announced their return nobody any longer expected S&S to win the Olympic Gold. The Olympic season results are nowhere near the surprise you are trying to make them out to be.
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:

    You sure love to lump everyone together don't you?

    S/S started out the Olympic Season pretty strong at Nebelhorn, imploded at TEB. Came back strong at SC with a new program (and a perfect 10 in PCS) and by the Olympics were only 0.70 away from S/Z and an OGM. It should also be noted S/Z didn't win the free skate, P/T did and S/Z would have lost another gold medal if P/T would have done a little better in the SP, so S/Z gold medal wasn't a lock as you seem to make it out be. It's easy to be right after the competition is over.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Unless you were living under a rock you would realize that pretty much everyone picked S/Z to win the Oly Gold once they returned. I fail to see what you find funny about me just stating a simple truth. Yes S/S were seen as the favorites for the Oly Gold BEFORE S/Z announced they were coming back, and once they did everything changed. I did not say S/Z were a mortal lock for the Oly Gold, but they were clearly the favorites all along for it. S/S were not ever thought of as the team to beat for the Oly Gold with S/Z back, it is that simple.

    Really the only surprises of the season were P/T being stronger than expected and Z/Z worse. S/Z besting S/S was what the vast majority of people expected to happen. Then considering S/S did not miss a podium all year they did not do much worse than expected (considering they were no longer favored to win any event S/Z were entered in).
  20. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Because I'm so in love with Aliona and Robin and want them to be the oly champions, I hope V/T would keep Morozov as their choreographer :p
  21. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Then trying to explain it to you again would be a waste of my of my time...anyway...back on topic...
  22. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    All the pairs mentioned are really very nice and very professional and I really love Bazarova-Larionov, but most of them lack the experience which VT have. Kavaguchi-Smirnov are probably the closest if not equal, but Yuko was not very much successful in the past two seasons and honestly, I don't believe she will ever recover again.

    G/E are rather young to compete with V/T this or the next season.

    B/L definitely need to become more emotional and less concentrated on the skating, otherwise every time the skate you just feel the stress and pressure they are under.

    I/M are great, but they tend to have constant ups and downs, which is not very good.
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am looking at two years later; not next season.
  24. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget who their coach is.
  25. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Only two competitions together? I must have hallucinated those 2 or 3 Russian regional events last season, Russian Nationals, Mt. Blanc Trophy and Worlds...or some combo of them for V/T to have only competed twice together. :rolleyes: And remarkably, except for his step out of the 3S at Worlds, they pretty much improved from one event to the next (and she had a few mistakes as well; I'm sure that's part of learning to become a pair together, getting timing right together, etc).

    I would love to see them dump Moronsov as choreographer, but his craptastic programs get the scores and results. Hopefully they will continue on the upward trajectory (and they said in their blog that they have been training a throw 3F at this point), skate together as a pair better, and then let the chips fall where they may.
  26. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    See, I have no problem with them keeping him as a choreographer, precisely because he does know how to choreograph a winning program. Regardless of what fans may think or want, he understands COP and gets results. If I were a skater, I'd be knocking on his door.
  27. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    THIS. And I want everyone to stay injury-free!
  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Who was their main competition at the MBT? The only reason they had to go was to get the minimum score to compete other wise they would not have bothered going in a normal competitive season. And they really just phoned in the performance anyway. So that leaves Russian Nationals where they were flawless (although her double-footed landed had been debated) and Worlds where he had a step out on a 3S. That is why I said consistency can't be judged on two competitions; meaning big competitions. It needs to be judged based on years of being togther.

    No, as senior world class skaters I don't count local competitions as anything more than glorified practices. I'm sure some skaters take them more seriously but the score are usually way off and should be taken with a grain of salt.
  29. bek

    bek Guest

    What about the fact that Voloszhar and Trankov were both very consistent jumpers in their previous partnerships. Yes Trankov had those Olympic mistakes but in most times he was landing the jumps it was Maria who wasn't. Same goes for Tatiana with her old partner. The other elements from what we've seen have been fairly consistent too.

    And for a new pair a competition is still a competition. They performed brilliantly at their first worlds together.
  30. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    They were pretty consistent, they were certainly the better partners of the partnerships they were in. But I'm not going to hop on the I hate Maria and Stas bandwagon that seems to be so popular. The fact is Maria and Stas weren't as bad as some make them out to be. Stas was a terrible jumper (actually he couldn't land jumps) but he was a fabulous thrower and lifter. He made her look really good and was 1/2 of a World 4th place pair, Tatiana couldn't have done it without him. She had her fair share of falls, step outs, two footed landings; you just may not have noticed because of his mistakes or you were just focusing on her better attributes like her posture of body lines.

    Same with Maria and Maxim; No way could they have won all those medals with just Maxim holding up the two all on his own. He too has has his fair share of falls, step outs and mistakes. Maria wasn't the most consistent of the pair but all the blame can't be laid at her her door any more than it can be laid at Stas'.

    Both Tatiana and Max will make mistakes, they are humans, and like I said they only have had two big competitions under their belts so far. Russian Nationals was as close to perfect as far as I can remember and Max had only one small error on a jump in the free at Worlds. They will have about 30 or so competitions before the Olympics, I'm sure they will be far more consistent than their former partnerships once they get into their groove.
  31. bek

    bek Guest

    So what if the have only two big competitions under their belt, they've been consistent so far. Why would the somehow get less consistent later on? And I don't know why only big competitions count either. Those little competitons qualified them to Nationals and qualified them to worlds. They may not have been the biggest competition ever but they were important.

    In terms of Stas /Maria. I think Stas was holding Tatiana back. While he had lovely throws and lifts, his skating in and of itself was a huge mis match.

    However, Maria is a different category and I actually think its an insult to compare her to Stas. Maria is an absolutely gorgeous skater to watch on the ice. She's just not the best jumper although she was getting better. Obviously Trankov is more to blame for their bad placement in the Olympics. But Maria has messed up plenty of words.
  32. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    I believe both Maksim and Tanya have had enough of the "big competition" experience and they will somehow manage the "consistency" issue.

    Both pairs, M/T and V/M were great. Every skater in the pair was great. I guess it was a great idea to take the partners, who were developing a little bit faster and put them in a new, outstanding, pair.
  33. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I guess it depends on your terms of consistency. If I told a student driver to drive three miles and said they were a consistently good driver because they didn't get a ticket would be a premature assessment. Is it too soon to judge V/T consistency? No, they did perfectly at nationals, a step out at worlds and if your want to count MB (where they both did sorta :( ) their Constancy at this point isn't perfect. No, they won't get less consistent, only better, but like all teams they aren't immune to mistakes.

    You're mis-understanding me. I wasn't comparing Maria and Stas like apples to apples, I was comparing them as the slightly weaker of the pairs. Stas was very athletically built, probably not built so much for jumping; where as Maria was a gorgeous dancer on ice who's jumps were also hit or miss. Anyone is prone to mistakes and all skaters make them.

    The original statement that was made was that someone hoped Tatiana and Maxim can be more consistent than Aliona and Robin. But Aliona and Robin have already skated over 50 competitions together and I don't think S/S are inconsistent. They make a few errors from time to time and every team does that, no matter how early or how late it is in ones career. Sometimes a pair can go a few competitions looking fine and sometimes they can't go one without messing up.

    V/T could go their entire career together without making a mistake in competition, but they have made several errors in their past that can't be blamed on their former partners. I hope it doesn't happen to them, every fan hopes for that skate where the crowd is standing before the skate is done. I hope as skaters they can experience that.
  34. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    I think by definition of consistency floating here, the only team that can ever be classified as consistent would be Totmanina and Marinin. All the other team manages to fall at least once every two competition or double one of their jumps. I am yet to see V/T fall on any of the program they have done (exhibition or competition program). Mount Blanc, they both stepped out of SBS(mount Blanc event was held at high altitude as well), yet they did not fall... They did not fall or double their jumps at Russia cup event in perm to my knowledge. This for me among current crop of pairs is an enviable track record. As much as I like S/S, they make uncharacteristic mistakes very often, P/T just can't do their SBS jumps with falling or doubling.


    AS for beating savchenko and szolkowy depend very much on how S/S does their jumps. If they skate like at Moscow, then Tania and Max will need a different choreographer.
  35. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Technically, not entirely true. Evidence here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfX-sPtVCmg and when that happened it happened with a bang:eek:
    But despite that I agree they were the most consistent team in Pairs skating.
  36. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    I know, that was a scary fall.
  37. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Totmianina-Marinin and Gordeeva-Grinkov were the most consistent pairs. G&G's 1990 worlds problems (due to Katia missing her 3t and later the 2A combination) were an exception, IMO. Rodnina-Zaitsev were also very consistent but they were not doing the difficult jumps and throws those days, so it's hard to compare them with these two pairs.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2011
  38. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    I think that David Pelletier may have been the most consistent pair skater ever. I might be wrong, but I don't remember him missing a single jump in competition in the years he competed with Sale.
    Erin and (deleted member) like this.
  39. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    An injury-free stretch of time between now & the Olympics and better costumes. :) They have the goods right now to be at the top of the podium. Their big competition by 2014 will likely come from Sui/Han and (I hope) Aliona/Robin.
  40. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    They only skated for 3 seasons at the world level. My vote for the most consistent male pairs skater goes to Sergei Grinkov, despite his minor errors at the 1994 Olympics. Before that, I never saw him miss a jump.