What can Savchenko & Szolkowy do to get Olympic Gold ?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by PashaFan, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,777

    Indeed, this is so sad - expecially because the above is true, or at least percieved as such by too many (including me).


    S/S are an incredible pair. Thanks to that, in my opinion there is one thing they could do to win gold: forget about anything else (the scores, the critiques, the judges, the odds, the outcome) and just focus on being the best possible skaters they can be.
    Too much effort, too much worrying about what's out of their control (like the possible bias towards Russian skaters, expecially Pairs since it's the strongest Russian event), the anticipation of a lost gold, all of that can get them under the weather and make them skate worse than they could.
    But if they thrive, if they focus solely on being the amazing skaters they are capable of being, they can wow the world, anf put the Russian bias in a difficult spot. Put pressure and V/T too, and make them handle it instead of letting V/T forcing pressure on competitors.

    In my opinion S/S have to think about their job, fly high, dream big; if that shows it could work a miracle.

    What worries me the most, isn't even that dangerous 3A, but the fact I'm seeing them less confident and less happy than thier talent and work should make them.
     
  2. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages:
    917

    Great comments, I totally agree! If S/S can skate with energy and emotion and just really believe in themselves, it would be wonderful, and could have some surprising results.
     
    loulou and (deleted member) like this.
  3. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,628
    My only dream gold Olympic medal is Savchenko & Szolkowy.
    I am sad to see my dream will probably not come true...
     
    loulou and (deleted member) like this.
  4. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    40,818
    I like S/S a lot, but it annoys me to read about Russian bias implying that V/T won't deserve gold if they win. They have been flawless so far this season and S/S haven't been close to flawless. If S/S want to be competitive, they need to be flawless as well. They haven't been for two years and I don't mean the 3A. I don't think that's bias. If V/T were falling all over the place and their twist was crashy, maybe there would be an argument for bias, but that flat out hasn't been the situation. And, whining about transitions is nonsense and just the viewers perspective. A "transition" that slows down the program, or is poorly executed does not trump a well executed element. And none of the judges mark them thusly. And, it doesn't matter what a skater or team did two years ago. They're being scored on what they do now. If S/S want gold, they have to skate like a gold medal winner. They didn't at Worlds last year and they haven't at the GP relative to their top competitor. We'll see how they match up at the GPF and Europeans (assuming V/T go). But, the whining about V/T is misplaced in a discussion about S/S. They are their own team and have to skate for themselves. When you have to count on another team making a mistake to win, you're in deep trouble.

    And the judges don't care that Maxim is wearing yellow pants or skating to JCS. Lord knows S/S have had some, shall we say, unusual costumes over the years. :lol:
     
    Finnice and (deleted member) like this.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466

    I like S&S too but reality is they are the ones with a list of controversial wins and results in their career, not V&T. In fact I dont believe V&T have ever had a controversial win or medal ever. S&S have had 2008 Worlds, 2011 Europeans, their silver at Worlds last year, just for starters. Also the only two close decisions between the two pairs which could have gone either way both went to S&S (2011 GPF, 2012 Worlds).
     
  6. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,628
    I think V&T are very smooth and consistent. I just find their LP in particular boring and bleh....

    Savchenko & Szolkowy made me love pairs again.
     
  7. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,777
    I don't think comments are implying that. But some people say that, unless V/T implode, they will win gold no matter how good or clean S/S go (if they do). One would also think that kind of perception would affect both V/T and S/S, in different ways.

    While the above would be ugly, if the best pair on ice wins I think everyone will be fine with that. Some might be sorry their favourite couldn't step up, but still fine with the result (being a huge Cohen's fan, I oughta know).


    I don't even know if I'll keep watching the Pair event after they'll be retired. My other favourite couple used to represent Japan, and we all know how that went.
     
  8. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    40,818
    All I know is I will be thrilled for one team and heartbroken for the other no matter how things shake out. I don't think V/T think they'll win gold no matter how S/S skate. They've honed their skills to the best of their ability so they can earn gold. Both teams are about as equal in skills as any two teams can be, especially, Tatiana and Aliona. I fully believe gold and silver will be determined by Robin and Maxim.
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    I'm not saying V/T don't deserve it. They certainly are skating the best. This isn't like in ice dance. We're simply saying that even if they skated clean and put on a great performance they wouldn't win. We bring this up, not to hate on V/T, but because the OP asked what can S/S do. The answer is nothing.

    Pairs is such a weak field, that S/Ss experience and overall technical ability will probably hold them at Silver, even though they aren't performing to their full potential.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  10. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,743
    Maybe I focus too much on the negative but was their a major title that they won with two flawless skates? So are they really on a decline or have they now just tough competition in V/T that they didn't have a few years ago? Are V/T maybe just better because they're consistent?
    That said, I really do want to see S/S win gold at the Olympics. I'm biased anyway, being German, however, I think they deserve it. They have so many great qualities to their skating and I could watch them skate for hours and hours and wouldn't care if they jumped or not because, for me, they don't need the jumps to be great.
     
  11. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    I'm not going to pretend that I remember every program accurately, I definitely have a more fond rose colored glasses thing going on, but I do remember their Worlds 2011 Pink Panther LP was clean.
     
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,034
    Savchenko/Szolkowy were very good at 2011 Worlds. I think they had one real mistake in 2009 but it's been a while so I could be wrong.

    Winning competitions with two flawless skates is not something most skaters manage regularly, even good ones. V/T were not flawless in winning Worlds, BTW, and I don't believe they were completely clean in their Euros wins, either.

    Anyway, I think the issue many people have with V/T is the scoring - especially PCS - rather than the absolute placements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  13. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    721
    This!

    I think that fans are more impressed with the idea of Pina and even that this team brought something that was not well known into skating spotlight. The choreography was blah and the music cuts were not impressive as you mentioned. To me, from an expression standpoint, this program highlighted Aliona's lack of facial expression. Anyway...back to the thread...
     
  14. Jessiebanana

    Jessiebanana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,477
    Yeah they did really well that year. Their 2009 Worlds SP was done really well, it was definitely colorful and odd, but it made sense why people had them pegged for Gold in 2010. It's a bit sad it didn't go that way and she was ill. That's life. We all have fave skaters who were never Olympic champions.
     
  15. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,422
    You said it better than I could. They should keep the focus on being the unique pair that they are, do something that is unique to THEM.
     
  16. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    719
    They have to skate clean and hope for V&T to make mistakes. Considering S&S are very likely to make mistakes, and V&T likely to make none, both of the reverse happening in sync is extremely unlikely.
     
  17. Nours

    Nours Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    If I remember well, 2011 Worlds in Russia. They also produced several clean LP performances.
     
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,577
    I do recall at the last GPF more than a few people said they should have got the silver and B/L should have won the gold.

    V/T have only been competing together for less than three years, they don't exactly S/Z's legacy in regards to competing with some of the best pairs skaters in the world like Sale & Pelletier, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze and Totmianina & Marinin. With only around 20 competitions under their belts (and some are too small to count) how much controversy can there be.

    S/S don't have a chance of winning gold unless V/T bomb severely and S/S are perfect, 3ATh and all. I doubt that will happen. Unless V/T get hurt or DQed, they will win gold. S/S needs to do the best they can and win the silver. I would hate to have them bomb and have someone else push them to 3rd or God forbid 4th.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Given that most people seem to think B&L are one of the most overrated pairs today and gripe constantly about their scores, I highly doubt that.
     
  20. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,577
    And I'm certainly one of them; but on that day I can see why some would have thought that V/T's competition win was controversial. No matter who the team is anyone can have a good day and great ones can have a bad one.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...n-Till-The-End-Of-Time!-Levels-Going-Up-Up-Up Page 5 or 6

    If V/T perform as badly as they did at Worlds in 2012 and only get 131 in the free like they did at the GPF last year, they can be beaten, by a few teams.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    For sure which just means if V&T dont deserve the Olympic Gold, they wont win it. If they skate like they have in every competition this year they do deserve the OGM though.
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,111
    I agree. I watched it after some here gave an impression that it was some sort of artistic masterpiece, but it just showed me the attributes that annoyed me about this pair when they first came out. Yes, the choreography can be complex. However, I always felt this pair always over-complicated their routines to the point where many of the moves are incongruent with the interpretation or music. Also, their facial expressions and interpretation leave a lot to be desired, IMO. They just aren't convincing to me as interpreters of music (which is why Out of Africa rang so false with me). I also think they're pretty messy and unclean with their choreographed moves that I find it distracting (like the way Aliona was picked up by a kneeling Robin in Pina…she stumbled exiting that move and instead of a seamless transition, it was just distracting).

    I also found it baffling when S/S's lack of consistency was constantly excused (their routines are so difficult that of course they're going to mess up a few times as opposed to thinking that maybe if they can't handle their programs then they should hone back on the choreography to a level that they can handle then move up from there). I think it just brings me back to the arbitrary "transitions are everything type of doctrine" that was so popular here for a few seasons…even at the expense of other qualities. Of course, now that their choreography seems to have simplified a bit (still not simple), they still haven't gotten any consistency. Of course, the focus of the throw 3 Axel can be blamed for that.

    This team has a lot of brilliant qualities, and I understand why people prefer them over generic and artistically-uninspired V/T. However, I find S/S to be one of the most overrated pairs in modern times, and Pina being a very overrated program. That said, with the dearth of interesting pairs since COP was implemented, I will say I rather have pairs follow in the footsteps of S/S who seems to try to bring something of a signature and advancement to the discipline artistically.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  23. Knigolubka

    Knigolubka New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    +1 They starting winning over S/S, when they started deserving it.

     
  24. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,409
    I think your post is extremely patronising to those of us who have noted why Pina was such a good programme chroepgraphically speaking.

    Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make it better or more correct than anyone else's.
     
    loulou and (deleted member) like this.
  25. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    670
    S&S were amazing at the 2011 Worlds, they did not miss anything. If they skate like that in Sochi I still believe it will be difficult to get the Gold. The judges have kind of dumped them since V/T have come along.
    V/T started their season early in fantastic form. S&S are more interesting for me. They always do something a little different with their choreography.
    I don't think they were gifted their World titles in 2008 & 2009. The Zhangs had very bland choreography & made errors too. 2012 was tight but V/T lost the title with a very poor SP.
    V/T had a few big errors in last seasons GPF but still won.
    I really hope S/S can improve their form for the GPF.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    They definitely deserved their 2009 title, but in 2008 I would have had the Zhangs and Dube & Davison both beating them. So would the EuroSport team who were flabergasted with the result.
     
  27. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    670
    I remember that. D/D were the best in the free. But I felt that the Zhangs were quite bland in their free skate. But stunning in the short program.
     
  28. Dolore

    Dolore New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    I can't recall all the performances now so I can't comment on that but the Eurosport commentators are - as entertaining and pleasant to listen to as they are - not always very reliable. Especially when it comes to the technical content they often put their foot in their mouth. Nicky Slater mostly provides fashion commentary and ignores the technical aspects aside from jumps.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Oh they were definitely bland but still should have scored atleast equal to S&S`s hot mess of a performance with glaring errors, and as they were ahead in the short they would have then beaten them. D&D deserved to beat S&S by atleast 5 points in the LP IMO, again enough to beat them overall. Over the 2 programs they had 5 significant errors:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcF0pTUfOLQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAxTbMwnf6o

    An overrotated and step out of the triple toe by her in the short (still was very good otherwise and definitely deserved 2nd in that phase), an overrotated and step out of the triple toe by him in the long, him falling on the triple salchow attempt, she stumbling and putting hands down on hers (atleast 1 of them looked underrotated too), spins badly out of sync. In this case I think their reaction was justified and very technical based. It is like it was some magificient program either. One lo long hum of music all the way, a bit boring frankly. Still good enough to win overall had they skated it fairly cleanly or with less substantial errors but with that performance, no way.


    Still not anywhere in the league of about 15 of Chan`s ridiculous wins or anything. However I doubt V&T will ever have a World or Olympic win as controversial as that either.
     
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,450
    S&S need more political support ;)