What about the audience, Mr. Cinquanta?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by somcutza, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    The actual mangement of the ISU is clearly divided, with the direct management of Speed Skating and Figure Skating being under the two Vice Presidents. At the Congress the two section meetings are conducted separately and the decision made by each section are brough back to the Federation Delegates for ratification. The final say fof all Congress proposals rests with the Federation.

    The ISU President and all elected members of the ISU can be replaced by a vote of the Delegates sent to the Congress by each Member Federation. The revolt as mentioned was not a revolt is was and attempt to replace the ISU rather than replace management. As it turned out it was a mistake. Several well respected and competent Officials were lead down the path the destroyed their ability to serve the sport.
     
  2. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    And watching over Skating's interests for the Olympics is not important?
     
  3. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

    14,620
    3,349
    113
    You answered the question about management but you did not address the issue of the money. FS should not be subsidizing speed skating and visa versa (as if). Why did FS every allow this to happen & why hasn't the various federations, esp the big feds, put a stop to it?

    There is no good reason for it to have ever happened. It would make as much sense to subsidize hockey - after all, hockey is played on skates.
     
  4. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    I am not sure if we are dealing with a time warp here or a troll. Finances for skating are very dear to my heart as the US and Canada lead the way for TV rights fees in the 90s. ABC paid US Figure Skating a total of 112 Million dollars for the rights to figure skating events. The ISU made like deals. Now for today. There are no more rights fees. It is cheaper to do a reality show and pay a winner one million dollars than a figure skating event. In fact it is cheaper to do a speed skating event than figure skating. There are less cameras and crew needed. The result is that in many countries , speed skating is better for the TV bottom line.

    Now lets look at support from the ISU. The ISU directly suports and conducts more Figure Skating events than it does Speed Skating.

    Financials do not support the belief that Figure Skating provides the income to conduct Speed Skating events.
     
  5. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    6,485
    524
    113
    It still doesn't explain why they're the same federation (which has allowed Cinquanta, who isn't truly a figure-skating person, to be in control of figure skating against its best interests). Why not include hockey, too? Everyone in all three sports skates and there's a lot more venue overlap between hockey and figure. Heck, curling shares the use of ice...
     
  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    10,801
    2,390
    113
    The answer to that goes back to 1892 when the ISU was first founded, at which time speedskating was a more mature sport than figure skating. E.g., Axel Paulsen was primarily a speedskater.

    So at any time in the intervening century-plus figure skating could have determined that it needed its own federation and separated from the ISU. But in general inertia wins out and it was easier to continue the status quo.

    Except for that one attempt in 2003, which not only wanted to separate from the ISU but also consisted of some political factions within the figure skating branch wanting to distance themselves from other factions.

    I think in order to succeed, such a secession would need support from all the national figure skating federations.

    Of course, some national federations also combine speedskating and figure skating into a single federation -- and a few cover other winter sports as well. So they're less likely to support a split.
     
  7. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

    420
    11
    0
    " the ice dance final at the Worlds in London: the audience – a Canadian audience this time – felt that Virtue and Moir did everything in order to keep their World title; according to the scores, they didn’t."
    :respec: finally
    if only this came from an authoritative source :lol:
     
  8. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    This answers the question in my last post, Time warp or Troll. :rolleyes:
     
  9. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

    14,620
    3,349
    113
    I don't know what attribute you think your rudeness enhances.
     
    victorskid and (deleted member) like this.
  10. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    2,587
    227
    63
    I don't think I said or even implied that. Of course, it is important, but it hardly seems like a monumental problem to schedule things so that both events could have been attended.
     
  11. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

    29,678
    6,102
    113
    Several years ago, I went through the list of federations and the majority of them combined speedskating and figure skating into a single federation. I haven't checked in the past few years so I don't know if that dynamic has changed.

    What I *am* curious about is the claim made by several people that figure skating subsidizes speed skating. I really have no idea if that's true or not. Has anyone seen financial statements from the ISU to say one way or the other?
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  12. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    18,167
    2,721
    113
    Is Cinquanta the only person in the ISU capable of making Olympic site visits, or qualified to do so? I sincerely hope not - otherwise the ISU has some big problems.

    I agree with Iceman. Missing the world championships in a sport which you preside over is inexcusable.
     
  13. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    Mr. Cinquanta is on the International Olympic Committee and, as such, he is the only person that could represent Figure Skating (and pardon me, Speed Skating) at the Olympic site.

    David Dore, ISU First Vice President is capable of, and did represent the ISU in his home country very well. Now just how did Mr. Cinquanta's absence hurt Worlds?
     
  14. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

    2,285
    447
    83
    Mr. Cinquanta not showing up at Worlds, the premiere and most important figure skating event of the season and year, certainly suggests a lack of interest in a sport that is currently hurting for positive attention and promotion.

    That's how I see it anyway, and I suspect I am not alone in my opinion.

    O-
     
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    18,167
    2,721
    113
    So only one person from each Olympic sport is able to make site visits? That's incredibly poor organization and/or lack of delegation on the part of either the ISU or the IOC.

    It certainly doesn't look very supportive of the event or of the athletes or the hosts. I'm finding it hard to imagine why Cinquanta's visit was so absolutely crucial to the Olympic construction on those particular days that he could not have visited Sochi before or after Worlds.
     
  16. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    12,997
    1,793
    113
    But the process is far more complicated and there are lot more numbers to crunch, plus two panels. Do you think the judges make up the scores in advance and memorize them? That is way too difficult to coordinate to ensure a rank order for a number of skaters on a given day. Sure, judges will have an idea of a skater's PCS before they skate, but that is no different than preconceptions in the 6.0 system artistry mark.

    Again, working together in a coordinated manner to ensure a certain result is pretty much impossible IMO. Results vary from competition to competition and tiny point differences add up to make a difference. To manipulate the scores perfectly, judges would have to be doing the math for both tech and PCS as the event takes place. I don't see where they have time for that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  17. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    Japan fan has given a very thoughtful and insightful of the process as it is today. It is my joy to regularly judge events in the US using IJS. The thing that strikes me is that at the end of a large event most of us have no idea of where we placed a skater. This is especially true when using the computer entry system. The plus side of this is that at the end of an event you do not have explain to a parent why you placed his Daughter 10th instead of 5th.
     
  18. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

    1,326
    308
    83
    Look, I now realize that this is bash Cinquanta thread, so let me say, you win. It is useless to present information on how the organization really works.
     
  19. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    18,167
    2,721
    113
    I asked you two questions which are straightforward. First, why is Cinquanta the only ISU person who can visit the Olympic sites? It is not "Cinquanta bashing" to ask this. I'm sure there are many other organizations in the world who would consider it bad management practice to have site responsibility for such a major event rest solely with one person (if for no other reason that the organization would have huge problems if that person was suddenly unable to do that job).

    And second, what was so important about him having to visit on those particular dates that he could not go to Worlds? I am sure you recognize the symbolic importance of a sport federation president attending his sport's annual world championship. Sending a representative in his place does not look very supportive. I don't see why his trip to Sochi, if indeed he was the only person who could go, could not have been delayed or moved ahead by a few days so that he could attend Worlds.
     
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,938
    816
    113

    Mr. Stillwell, there are probably many fans who appreciate your sharing insider information as well as your personal viewpoints, so thanks. OTOH, what’s the point of calling posters trolls because they are asking questions which you are unable or unwilling to answer, or prefer were not asked?

    There’s surely a lot that many of us fans don’t know and don’t understand about what goes on behind-the-scenes in figure skating. Obviously, there are many complicated problems existing in figure skating which do not have easy answers. But with all due respect, I doubt anyone can seriously argue that the management of the ISU is squeaky clean, A-okay and above being criticized. If nothing else, Sonia Bianchetti Garbato’s revealing, if poorly written book, Cracked Ice, shed light on some of the problems regarding “management” of the ISU. Ms. Garbato told her story from her vantage point and apparently she was involved in a power struggle which she ultimately lost.

    That Mr. Cinquanta has remained at the top position of the ISU for so long shows that he wields a great deal of power. Under his tenure, the sport of figure skating has deteriorated. This is due to a number of factors, but IMO some of those factors seem to include a combination of ineptitude, poor judgment, lack of vision, lack of knowledge, and blind power-mongering. The bottom line: it’s past time for the sport of figure skating to be unshackled. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    This thread is not about "bashing" Cinquanta. Its about fans asking questions about a sport that we love. Its about fans trying to get Cinquanta's and the ISU's attention. But clearly neither fans nor skaters actually count in any of what goes on in terms of "ISU management" directives. What's useless is everyone keeping their heads buried in the sand and making excuses for the current state of affairs that exist in figure skating.

    BTW, this isn't a contest and there are NO WINNERS.
     
    OliviaPug and (deleted member) like this.
  21. 4rkidz

    4rkidz plotting, planning and travelling

    9,820
    1,716
    113
    I was an official with speed skating and I understood this to be true.. in fact we were told that at the Olympics and several other high level events, televised speed skating and viewership actually made more money than figure skating.. ditto with the management it is quite separate - so don't blame speed skating ;)
     
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,938
    816
    113
    ^^ Well then, it shouldn't be any problem at all for these separate and individual sports to be completely ripped asunder, if they are managed so separately, eh? I don't think anyone is "blaming" speed skating for anything in any case.


    I repeat my previous post:


    Mr. Stillwell, there are probably many fans who appreciate your sharing insider information as well as your personal viewpoints, so thanks. OTOH, what’s the point of calling posters trolls because they are asking questions which you are unable or unwilling to answer, or prefer were not asked?

    There’s surely a lot that many of us fans don’t know and don’t understand about what goes on behind-the-scenes in figure skating. Obviously, there are many complicated problems existing in figure skating which do not have easy answers. But with all due respect, I doubt anyone can seriously argue that the management of the ISU is squeaky clean, A-okay and above being criticized. If nothing else, Sonia Bianchetti Garbato’s revealing, if poorly written book, Cracked Ice, shed light on some of the problems regarding “management” of the ISU. Ms. Garbato told her story from her vantage point and apparently she was involved in a power struggle which she ultimately lost.

    That Mr. Cinquanta has remained at the top position of the ISU for so long shows that he wields a great deal of power. Under his tenure, the sport of figure skating has deteriorated. This is due to a number of factors, but IMO some of those factors seem to include a combination of ineptitude, poor judgment, lack of vision, lack of knowledge, and blind power-mongering. The bottom line: it’s past time for the sport of figure skating to be unshackled. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    This thread is not about "bashing" Cinquanta. Its about fans asking questions about a sport that we love. Its about fans trying to get Cinquanta's and the ISU's attention. But clearly neither fans nor skaters actually count in any of what goes on in terms of "ISU management" directives. What's useless is everyone keeping their heads buried in the sand and making excuses for the current state of affairs that exist in figure skating.

    BTW, this isn't a contest and there are NO WINNERS.
     
  23. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

    29,678
    6,102
    113
    I apologize for failing to read carefully back just a few posts to where Mr. Stillwell explained the current realities of financial support between the two arms of the ISU.