Were Brasseur & Eisler underrated

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Gabybackhand, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    While I wasnt a big fan of them when they skated looking back I think Brasseur & Eisler were undermarked, atleast on technical scores. They had the strongest lifts, strongest twists, strongest death spirals, hardest spins, yet their technical marks were often lower than other bigger name pairs, even when they skated cleanly.
  2. Prancer

    Prancer Ray Chill Staff Member

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    They had great tricks. But they didn't have the best speed, edge quality or other elements that also count as part of the technical score.
  3. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    They also completely ate it at the 1992 Olympics and robbed Kovarikova and Novotny of the bronze. Now that was an underrated pair. B&E were fun to watch at times, but I tend to think of them in the vein of Shen and Zhao pre-2003.
  4. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    My answer is yes in some aspects, no in others. In terms of personal enjoyment, just sitting down to watch and be entertained, B/E are one of my all-time favorite pairs teams. Looking back, I do think they were marked correctly for the most part. The things that Prancer listed were counted (I think, mostly) under the tech mark back then, which offset the things that Gabybackhand listed off. I think, for the most part, they were fairly marked at the time they were competing. A few gifts, maybe cheated here and there from time-to-time, but in the end, mostly where they needed to be.

    Where I think B/E tend to get underrated is when people go back and talk about teams of the past and how they fit in. I think in that aspect, people do tend to forget about the things that B/E did extremely well. IMO, when you're just talking about the lifts, B/E are one of the greatest teams when it came to that element. Might I add that those lifts just weren't based on size differential either--they were difficult and executed superbly. No, they're not one of the overall all-time great pairs teams, but they are one of the overall all-time very good pairs.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  5. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    ^^ Well Written!
  6. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realize B&E judged the event and awarded themselves a bronze medal.
  7. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    I saw them skate many times and in my opinion they are one of the all-time greats, so in that respect I'd say they are under-rated certainly by the current group of fs fans. In addition to spectacular lifts, everything they did was done at great speed, they had original and unique spins and entrances to them, as well as a great on-ice connection. I thought they could have won in Halifax in 1990 but they were up against G&G, and one mistake - Lloyd singling a double axel - was all it took to lose them the gold in 1991. I think the judges thought quite highly of them and did mark them reasonably, but unfortunately they were competing against two of the best Russian teams ever. They deserve cudos for always staying competitive with them.
  8. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I personally doubt they could've won the 91 worlds with Lloyd doing a double axel rather than his single. As brilliant as they were in many of the pair moves, that free program was not their best even by their standards. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I strongly disagree with you about their speed (I found them really slow). I think part of my problem with them was (and yes, I know this sounds mean) they (along with Elvis Stojko) always struck me as trailer park trash.
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they were underrated. If at all anything, they were gifted the 1992 Olympic bronze medal. They had great lifts but that's about it. Unfortunately for them, the 6.0 system did not give a lot of extra points (placement) for lifts. Throws, sbs jumps, unison, posture & line, edge quality and speed were valued more, as they should have been). As pros they were entertaining but in terms of skating skills they were not cream of the crop. They had a pretty good career- world silver medallists (2x or 3x?)), Olympic bronze medallists (twice), 1-time world champions. I don't see that as underrated.
  10. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Lloyd's attitude stopped me from enjoying this pair.
  11. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I can understand that, but what does personal enjoyment have to do with whether or not a team was marked and regarded fairly in terms of their athletic ability? If we're going to treat skating as a sport, then our personal feelings about the skaters's personalities, etc. can't enter into the assessments about the skating part of things. All sports--basketball, football, hockey, golf, swimming, etc.--are full of people who aren't that great in their personal lives and actions. We don't use personal life or personality in determining winners elsewhere.
  12. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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    If I recall correctly, Llloyd needed (knee?) surgery after 1990 Worlds but they delayed it until late in the summer (because they were skating in shows), and it turned out he required more extensive surgery and their preparation for the 90-91 season was affected.
  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I don't think that's fair, particularly to Isabelle who has been nothing but classy on the ice and in her personal life, AFAIK. And as aka_gerbil says, it shouldn't have mattered in terms of marks anyway.

    I'm far from a fan of B&E - I would've given their Olympic medals to K&N and S&N. But the rough quality that I think you're talking about was very exciting, especially in galas. They were always a highlight at COI. There is a long tradition IMO of Canadian pairs with excellent lifts and pairs elements who didn't develop the fluidity and basics of their Russian counterparts. Of these, I would say B&E were the best by far.

    My answer is they were not underrated in terms of the overall judging, but are underrated by some fans for the type of team they were and their place in history.
  14. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Kudos to Isabelle if she was classy (no sarcasm intended at all). But stylistically, I found them rather rough. I guess they just weren't to my taste.
  15. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

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    Other than the 1990 Worlds, which was sort of a mess from a judging standpoint, both B&E AND M&D could have won (arguably), I can't recall an eligible competition where they were undermarked - although, I didn't go back prior to 1990 and I've never watched Canadian nationals, beyond certain performances.

    I will say that as difficult and consistent as their lifts were, Isabelle didn't always have great air positions - some times her legs were not straight with pointed toes, that might be splitting hairs but when they were compared to G&G, M&D and even K&N - it's a noticeable difference...

    She seems a lovely person, him, not so much...
  16. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    No and they had the bad luck of being in an era with two of the greatest pairs in the history of the sport.
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to mention the lovely Shishkova (and Naumov) who had the best pointed toes and postures in her lifts.
  18. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

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    I did - and as you said, they BOTH had great posture...
  19. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    This is why my short answer is, NO.
  20. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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    I didn't recall correctly :shuffle: Lloyd injured his knee playing hockey in Dec 1990 and was still wearing a brace by the time worlds rolled around. That contributed to him singling the axel. Whether it was the whole reason for not winning is another discussion.

    He was advised to have surgery after the injury but with the brace he was able to complete and then they did the two tours after Worlds. Then he had the surgery which turned out more extensive etc. They missed Trophee Lalique and he was still wearing the brace at Nations Cup.
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned K &N Kovatikova Novotny;I did not see S&N Shishkova Naumov
  22. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    Before the 1992 Games they were expected to be fighting for the gold with Miskutienok & Dmitriev, and considered locks for atleast silver. Kovarikova & Novotny werent even considered one of the bronze contenders pre Games, those were Becke & Petrov, Shishkova & Naumov, Kuchiki & Sand, and maybe Ubanski & Marvel and the Germans. B&E were 2nd at the 1990 Worlds ahead of M&D and behind the now absent G&G, and 2nd at the 1991 Worlds after winning the SP. K&N were 8th and 6th at the last 2 Worlds and had not even medalled at Europeans yet. The judges took that all into consideration when determining the result, not just their performances there.
  23. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

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    Right - I was agreeing that I had not mentioned S&N. What I was trying to add on was that both Shishkova AND Naumov had great posture. Sorry if confusing...
  24. Prancer

    Prancer Ray Chill Staff Member

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    That was what I always liked best about B&E; I thought they were very entertaining and I enjoyed them in that way more than a lot of other pairs. They brought something different to the table and I appreciated that; I like variety in skating and don't enjoy one balletic performance after another.

    But that's different from thinking they were undermarked.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    No problem. I misinterpreted the "I did". I was using my cell phone at the time, so it was not as easy as using a regular monitor.
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    After M&D's 1991 world title, they were heavy favorites for the OGM. For B&E (or anyone else) to win the OGM, M&D had to make major mistakes. Bechke & Petrov were good enough for silver, but never considered a threat to M&D for the gold because they were inconsistent. Up to that point B&E had been fairly consistent, and may be that's why they were considered challengers to M&D, but only if M&D made major mistakes. As it turned out, M&D did make a couple of mistakes in the 92 Olys, but B&E had a total meltdown. S&N and K&N were not considered bronze medal contenders in 1992; they were the pairs of the future (1994). Kuchiki-Sand and particularly Urbanski-Marvel were nowhere close to medal contenders (I am surprised that you even mentioned U&M). K&N and S&N were in bronze medal position because of their strong SP performances at the 92 Olys and not before the games. This was a somewhat weak pairs field, after the top 3 (M&D, B&E and B&P) with M&D clearly in a class by themselves.

    To get back on topic, B&E were not underrated at all. They won the silver at the 1990 worlds but were not really as good as M&D and even a clean B&P. The 92 Oly results reflected that. When B&E made mistakes, they were rightly marked down, but not enough. K&N should have placed higher, even with a fall in the LP.
  27. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    Brasseur & Eisler were always considered above Becke & Petrov as amateurs. Had Brasseur & Eisler skated even decently they would have easily beaten B&P for the silver atleast. It was only in the pros when B&P began to succeed over B&E.
  28. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

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    I don't necessarily disagree with the thought that had Brasseur & Eisler skated relatively cleanly, they would have placed 2nd, but I think that Bechke/Petrov skated better than they ever had at the '92 Olympics, although there had been previous "flashes" of, if not brilliance, what would have been considered excellent, "classic" pairs skating. There probably would have been some debate around the medal placements had B/E skated cleaner (but not perfectly) and eked out the silver ahead of that particular performance of B/P.
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    They werent underrated. The only time I ever thought they were undermarked was the 92 Worlds SP where they should have won the SP phase over M/D. Their LP was again disaesterous and overscored though, deserving only 4th or 5th but being gifted the bronze ala the Olympics. At the 1990 Worlds they probably should have beaten G/G in the LP, but probably also should have been behind one or both of Selezneva & Makarov and/or Miskutienok & Dmitriev. At the 1994 Olympics their LP marks were a bit low, but so were S/N, and S/N maybe deserved to beat them but didnt, although it was close. At the 94 Worlds their marks were again generous for how they skated, although she showed huge bravery with a bad injury. At the 91 Worlds they were overmarked and lucky to come as close to winning as they did, but that was expected as after their home cook aided silver at the 1990 Worlds they were favored going into the event and the sport was even more political and protocal heavy then than it is now.
  30. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    Anyone who can afford figure skating lessons is far from 'trailer park trash' which is an absolutely appalling thing to say about anyone. As I said, I saw B&E skate and compete and they were both fast and smooth. The 1992 Olympics was without a doubt their worst competition and they were fortunate to win a bronze medal. They skated much better in 1994 even with Isabelle skating with cracked ribs. M&D were one of my favourite teams, but they deliberately placed their throws so that her two-footed landings would be hidden from the judges, and when K&N did win a world title it was with an error filled free skate.
  31. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if their score were ever correct or not but I really enjoyed them, far more than some of the top teams.