Was It A Mistake To Send Czisny & Abbott to the Challenge Cup?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    A number of tweets from Phil Hersh. They read:-

    So, was it a mistake to send Czisny & Abbott to the Challenge Cup?
  2. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Post deleted--I thought he was saying it was a mistake to put Alissa and Jeremy on the Worlds team!
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  3. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    I'm wondering why ANY of the top skaters would have done this event so close to Worlds.
  4. bek

    bek Guest

    Unless the USFSA forced Alissa/Abbott to go to Challenge Cup, seems to me their team deserves some of the responsibility.
  5. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think this can be a good event for these two headcases IF the USFS let them stay in Europe until Worlds. It's the travelling that's the main issue, not the closeness to Worlds.

    I mean, if Czisny beat Kostner and Abbott beat Joubert here, no one would question this assignment for them.
  6. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think results are a fair way to determine if it was a mistake to send skaters to an event. Somehow, if they do well at Worlds, I don't think that Hersh will claim it is because they got fired up by what happened here, although this decision will be to blame if they do badly.
  7. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    I am not so sure that i agree with putting Alissa and Jeremy in the same bag. Jeremy has been excellent in the SP all season. That free skate, i just dont like. Its way too...how can i say it? looks like he smoked one before he choreographed it. LOL. No seriously, he's just not there yet to pull off something so "deep" and introspective. Its quite a depressing overly i'm way artsy fartsy ish. Thats just me. Anyway, I think this season for him has been good overall.
  8. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    The reasons are well-known why they cannot stay in Europe until Worlds even though the USFSA would "let" them.
    And given the results for Alissa, it wasn't a good event whether they stay in Europe or not.

    I do hope that Team Czisny will exercise good judgement and arrive a day or two earlier than normal for Worlds.
    .
  9. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya New Member

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    Not by me. Care to elaborate?
  10. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    I think Alissa said it would be too expensive to stay and train in Europe during the interim period, and anyway she prefers to train at home in Detroit. She also said the traveling back and forth wasn't a big deal as it was "only Europe." Not sure if this is the "well known" reason geod mentioned, but it's what I had heard/read.
  11. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    Those reasons and Jason needed to return to his other skaters that he coaches. I can't recall where I read it....maybe the same place you did.
    .
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Czisny and Abbott wanted to go to Challenge Cup IIRC, USFS did not "make" either of them though. Jeremy was still ailing at the time of 4CC and Alissa was not selected to skate there, so this seemed like a good alternative for the both of them in that it gave 1.) Jeremy more time to heald and 2.) Alissa (well and Jeremy) a chance to compete before Worlds. If one or both of them are injured I'd rather know now so they can be replaced then at Worlds if injuries cause them to bomb and cost us 3 spots. So yeah. USFS is not to blame.

    Anyways I'm not that worried, Jeremy did not skate well here, but his score is still Miner's SB score, so replacing him (unless he's injured) does not make much sense. His PCS are holding him up when the jumps don't work out so well, and if his jumps work better at Worlds, he will do quite well. Ross has been consistent this season, but if he skates well, he scores what Jeremy got here or maybe a little higher, if he is a little off, then he'll likely score lower than Jeremy did here in which case we'd be better off sending Jeremy (unless he's still injured).

    As for Alissa, her PCS won't hold her up when she makes that many mistakes, and they also drop more with her mistakes than Abbott's, but anyways, first alternate is Zaawadzki - not Gold, Zhang, or Nagasu, and well we've seen how Agnes usually skates in her FS this season, at one of her GPs the score was lower than Alissa's bomb here, and even her SB is only 104, which Alissa can manage with a sub-par skate for her (just not a complete bomb like here), so idk how smart replacing her is, unless she's injured. If Alissa happens to skate well, there's a very good chance for 3 spots next year, if she doesn't skate well, I'm not convinced Agnes would score much higher/if at all. So might as well send Alissa because at least if she skates well she has a chance at a medal, which Zawadzki realistically doesn't.

    The way I see it, Jeremy could place like, anywhere from 2nd-12th at Worlds. Ross realistically would probably score from 6th-12th, maybe even more like 8th-15th, so Jeremy is the bigger gamble but there's a chance he gets a much better placement. The same goes for Alissa, 2nd-15th is her range for Worlds. Zawadzki would be like 6th-15th realistically, so again Alissa is the bigger gamble but with the chance for better results.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
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  13. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Simple answer to the question at the title of this thread: YES, IT WAS, especially Czisny. A manouvre almost as 'brilliant' as sending 13th-place Nationals-placer Ricky Dornbusch to 4Cs instead of Armin M.
  14. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how it could be a mistake. For Alissa, I pray this was an opportunity to get that catastrophic skate out of her system so it doesn't show up at worlds. For all of the mental toughness they claim she's gained in the last two seasons (I'm not convinced yet), this is the perfect example of taking what was done here (at Challenge Cup) and making corrections so it doesn't happen at worlds.

    I don't know why Phil's got his panties in a bunch over this whole 4CC vs Challenge Cup deal. I think Alissa needed this event. Despite her results she's been "off" all season. She hasn't had a repeat performance of her victories at the GPF or 2011 nationals this year--where she's had a clean SP and clean LP back to back. She's struggled in one or both segments at every competition she's entered. The difference was she hasn't been giving up...until this competition. Those two falls back to back...you could tell she was about ready to leave the ice right then, especially after that hard fall on her loop. She was completely lost in the air on a lot of those jumps which makes me think her problems were more mental than physical at this competition.

    I really hope she pulls herself together. It's so frustrating every year to have our team consist of one solid link and one weak link...PLEASE pull yourself together Alissa! We need her to place in the top 8. If Ashley skates as strong as she did at her last two competitions, I wouldn't be surprised to see her 4th or higher this year...
  15. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Having a 2 month gap in between competitions would have been too long...interesting that pre 4CC, there would have been only a 6 week gap between US Nationals and Worlds
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I think maybe a way for Alissa to pull herself together would be to strip down her LP - nothing harder than a 3z and 3 jump combo. Repeat the jumps she's best at. This would be similar to Caro's strategy over the past year and a half, and look how well that worked out for her!
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    It sure seems like it may have been- but it depends on the athlete. If they took something away from this competition that will help them prepare for World's then it was not a mistake.
  18. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Indeed. Caro made the Worlds podium last year, even with the watered-down content, because Caro's PSC scores (basic skating quality) are so high. Alissa is another 'high PSC lady.'

    I was re-watching my DVD of recent Nationals and noticed how, just before she takes her starting position for a program, Alissa practices her arm/hand positions for jumps; she does this in s-l-o-w motion whereas every other lady does this sort of thing quickly, with a snap motion. Doesn't this tell it all?
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Actually, fans were discussing these points as possible reasons, not Alissa herself.

    I think you two may be remembering what was posted/being discussed in the U.S. Ladies thread (posts #763-772) before Challenge Cup, along with an IN preview article excerpt I posted: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81991&page=39

    Well put! Only Abbott and Czisny and their coaches can really know the answer to this. And I'm sure we fans can -- and will -- debate this particular question again after Worlds. ;)
  20. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I guess the reasons for Alissa returning to Detroit aren't so well known, then. :lol:
  21. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    1.It's a mistake for Alissa and Jeremy competing in Europe 2 weeks before Worlds. I believe it was the coaches's decision, not USFS. Coach should be the one to be blamed. If they wanted to do it to gain confidence, that's another story, but it did not look that way. By the time they get home after poor performance, it's very difficult to build up their confidence or make any correction in jump technique or program due to time constraint. The anxiety will build up causing more negative thought than anything. It was coach's poor judgement, IMO.
    2. To stay in Europe for two weeks and practice before Worlds is very expensive. Besides food, lodging,transportation, athlete also has to take care of some of the expense, e.g.coach's daily fee (since coach will lose some income during those two weeks when compare with staying at home).
    3. It's not easy to find ice time to practice if you're not familiar with the town/city.
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The whole system is a crap shoot, Dornbush had a better fall season than Mahbanoozadeh and beat him in the FS at nationals so they decided to forgive him the SP bomb there and make him 1st alternate for 4CC. They also made a gamble sending 16th place finisher Farris to JW and he ended up winning silver, placing ahead of 9th place nationals finisher Brown, with a huge score, and came super close to winning the title. In that situation, the gamble paid off, you could have said Warren was more "deserving" of the spot based on the way he skated at Nats, but no way would he have come in 2nd in that field had he been sent. Ricky skating well will beat Armin skating well internationally, USFS knows that, so they sent him. They probably thought his SP at nats was a fluke, turns out he was actually in a bit of a rut, so while it sucks for Armin, his GOOD performances at nats probably seemed like a fluke because he was so lackluster on the GP. What it comes down to is, none of the other US men, if skating clean, can top a clean Abbott in international competition, and of the US ladies, the only ones who, if skating clean, can top a clean Alissa in international competition are Ashley, who is already going to Worlds, and Mirai, who was not solid at nationals and has been off her game a bit this whole season. So they might as well send Jeremy and Alissa to Worlds, if they bomb there, the USFS will take note and I'm sure invest more attention in younger skaters with more potential for the future coming up through the ranks next season.
  23. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    why wasn't USFS doing this for, oh say the past decade where Czisny is concerned?
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    They get some raiting points. So they need this competition. But two time in two weeks went to Europe - i am not sure.
    Why we didnt have B-competition in North America?
  25. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Well, WAS it a mistake?

    I don't think we can truly know at this point. Maybe it was an opportunity to get the jitters out before the real thing, in which case it would seem in retrospect like a smart decision. OTOH, if they tank at worlds as well, it would seem that the Cup was a waste of time/energy which should have been directed to staying at home training.

    Like someone else pointed out, the key to this is whether Team Czisny or Team Abbott learned anything from this comp (for Czisny, maybe it's not worth it to go for 2-3 combo after all if it threw off her timing for everything else). And another key, believe it or not, is how they perform in France 2 weeks from now.
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Neither Abbott nor Czisny needed the ISU World Standings rankings points -- they both already were in the top 12 to be drawn into the final 2 groups of the SP at Worlds. Rippon actually could have used the ranking points since he is just outside the top 12. Joubert's 250 points for the Challenge Cup win moves him up to #13 among the men scheduled for Worlds, with Rippon right behind him: http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm

    There's reportedly one in the works for early next season -- see: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82267

    BTW, for what it's worth, Abbott had a positive-sounding tweet last night: "Did what I needed to do in The Hague. Excited for the next 2 weeks of training & thankful for the support of my federation"

    ETA: Of course, none of us are in the skaters' heads so we can't know their respective mental states heading into Worlds. Only they truly know what they can/have to do in order to be successful and skate to the best of their abilities at Worlds.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  27. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    I really hope Alissa scraps the 2A-3T once and for all, and instead focuses on elements that are actually in her wheelhouse.
    Then again, maybe this is all part of their plan for peaking at Worlds. I sure hope so!
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  28. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya New Member

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    Ok thanks, it makes sense.

    Thanks geo2 as well, sorry i don't even know how to quote two messages in one reply!
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Because no one else stepped up to the plate. Agnes, Gold, etc were just babies until recently. Puberty completely knocked Caroline out for a few years, Mirai hasn't been consistent since she hi puberty, Rachael had nothing else going for her besides consistency, same goes for Emily, Kimmie was never going to do well once judges cracked down on URs with her blatantly cheated jumps and toe-axel, and Ashley was always shooting herself in the foot in competition, especially at nationals, so Alissa when she chose to deliver was the best we had. Now she's getting older and still isn't consistent or a strong jumper so there's no need to invest in her any longer.
  30. genevieve

    genevieve drinky typo pbp, closet hugger Staff Member

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    nope
  31. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Misunderstood.
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  32. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Jeremy's tweet sounds like he's either sucking up to the USFSA or trying to tell the fans to chill out. Although I'm kind of not too concerned about him because he did manage to at least pull in on most of his jumps. This may be wishful thinking on my part but it seemed like he was fairly casual about setting up for the performance and wasn't putting too much effort into doing amazingly. I hope.
  33. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    How anyone can think doing the Challenge Cup for those 2 was a mistake is beyond me...

    they haven't competed since US Nationals, which was what, 6 weeks ago? They've been training since, and are pretty much at the same shape as they will be in a couple of weeks for worlds. They just competed at a low-stress competition is Europe a couple of weeks before worlds, and bombed. Thank GOD they went to the Challenge Cup!!!

    Guess what folks, chances are had they not gone, these would've been their performances at the worlds championship. And all we'd be hearing during the off-season would be what a terrible mistake not going to a pre-worlds competition was. Both had a chance to test their training and preparation, and got a wake-up call. For the next couple of weeks, you better believe that they'll be gearing towards salvaging themselves in Nice.

    Alissa wanted to test a new layout for her LP that felt more comfortable during practice sessions, and realized competition ice is a different ball game. I hope she and her team resort back to her old layout and forget about the 2axel-3toe combo till next season. I was thrilled she was upping the ante this season technically, but after an injury and 4 disapointing - borderline disastrous - performances in a row, she needs to get through a basic 6 triples and a double axel program to to end her season. It took a full season of consistent performances for the judges to finally reward her in the PCS department. she's 1 bad performance away from the judges giving up on her. She took A LOT from her appearance at the Challenge Cup

    And Jeremy, tested the quad in the SP, didn't go well at all. That's what he wanted to test before Worlds. I bet his team will be rethinking his SP strategy for days to come. And lessons were learned for the LP as well. Don't switch the flip and the lutz. Add the combo to the first 3axel if you land it. Get a 3-3 as soon as you can before you tire out. It's good to get this message before Worlds.

    So was it a mistake? Heeells no! A blessing in disguise if you ask me
  34. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    That's the spirit, MR-FAN!

    For Jeremy, the 4toe attempt should be saved for the LP, and if he has a good one to open his program, then he can make the decision to tack on a 3toe to the end of it. The SP is just too risky to attempt the 4 combination when he hasn't been attempting it in the SP all season long.

    Ideal Abbott SP jump layout:

    3flip+3toe
    3Axel
    3Lutz

    If pristine clean, he could potentially score 85 points with this content and with the fact that he has a top quality program that the judges have taken a liking to all season long. Scores tend to go up at Worlds, particularly if a skater skates his/her best and the judges like the program.

    Ideal Abbott LP jump layout:

    4toe+3toe
    3Axel+2toe
    3flip
    x3Axel
    x3Lutz
    x3loop
    x3Lutz+2toe+2loop
    x3Salchow

    Ideal Czisny SP jump layout:

    3Lutz+2toe
    3loop
    2Axel

    Ideal Czisny LP jump layout:

    3Lutz+2toe
    2Axel+2toe
    3flip
    x3loop+2toe+2loop or 3toe+2toe+2loop
    x3Lutz
    x3loop
    x3toe
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  35. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    Ideal only if she skates it clean.
    She has done only one program with 6 triples attempted (Skate America, months ago) and got negative GOE on every one of them (plus a she fell on the 3F).
    Of the 25 Triples she has attempted in 5 competitions this season she received:
    - negative GOE on 18 of 25
    - under-rotation/DG calls on 10 of 25.

    Sadly, but realistically, she doesn't have what it takes to skate 6 clean triples. Period.

    Even though Alissa wants to medal at Worlds (and who wouldn't?) her best strategy is to build a program that she can skate clean.
    That would be 5 triples attempted and completed. Don't take a chance on a fall that will detract from the rest of program and shake her confidence.
    OK that only gets her to 4th-7th. There's a very good chance that Ashley will do well enough that between her and Alissa the U.S. gets 3 spots back again.
    Alissa going for 6 triples is too risky...the (not very) possible upside gain is easily trumped by the downside risk.

    If she takes the pressure off herself and skates a clean beautiful 5 triple (maybe 2 2As) LP she can walk away from Worlds
    with her head held high and no regrets whatever her placement.


    -
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  36. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Her goal should be to skate clean. She cannot take big risks because in her case, if she fails she ends up 10th or worse. It's not like she is Kwan or Cohen who, on their worst day, would probably end up 4th.
  37. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

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    Alissa should just stick to 5 triples program period. Ever. She never skated clean program and landing 5 will be great for her. If she lands all her jumps with no fall or DG, she can def add up more points with her nonjumps elements (currently on senior level, no ones can milk out these points like her) and she can easily get 120+ or more.

    I think her game play should be skate what you can and let the dices fall where they may. Honestly neither Mao, Kostner has yet to skates completly clean program so far and even thou Ashley attempts more triples than her, she does give up points away with her scratchy landings....so its all even out.
  38. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I think Alissa could do -

    3z-2t
    2x
    3f
    x-3z (or 3t - if the lutz is still a huge issue)
    x-3t-2t
    x-3l
    x-3l-2t-2l

    I think 6 triples is doable, as long as no 3-3, no 3sal, and no 2x-3t. She can leave out a 2d 3z if it's a big problem and just do a 3t
  39. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Alissa stand up six triples at the 2010-11 GPF? Or am I remembering wrong?
  40. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    To try things out?