Wa-Po article: Evan Lysacek expects to be in Sochi

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by manleywoman, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    All because Lysacek keeps talking about his comeback but the last competition he has had was 2010 Olympics. What do you want people to talk about?:lol:

    God! I hope it won't happen again!:yikes:

    It bothers me. Of course, men's skating is not all about quad jumps but quad has become the backbone of men's skating since Yagudin/Plushenko era, and it should be. It's great that quad has come back into the winner's repertoire. Without even trying it, it seems missing something spiritual. That was the reason that Takahashi was praised by many for his gutsy 4T attempt in his LP at 2010 Olympics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    All season long they were wagering that him being the only one with really consistent quads and 3a would be enough. Sure his program plan indicated 4/3/2loop but he never did that. Never did a 3/2/2 with axel or lutz. They made their wager. They also tried flip once the whole season at COr I think. They wanted to eliminate the possible e on flip or double flip or < on loop or step out. So they eliminated things he made mistakes on in Torino. Do a 2a, put on more jump after the halfway point. That was their view of enough. All because he was the only one doing 4/3 and 2 3a. I guess he did downgrade but was still doing the hardest jumps. It was a mistake that only bit them at the Olympics. Worked at COr and euros.

    And the takahashi flip was at worlds but toe was at the Olympics. Near Zero Points on both For takahashi. Glad that's over!
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I, too, am glad that the underrotation downgrade penalty was changed.
     
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I think this time around, Evan will need a quad, and he knows it. I don't think he would be put on the Olympic team if he doesn't do a quad at nationals. Max Aaron as champion this year showed that USFS judges think a quad is a requirement to compete on the world seen.
     
  5. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Sasha 2.0. If Evan was really serious he would have come back this year and done Yuna 2.0.
     
  6. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    Evan did not compete this year because he was injured and had surgery.
     
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha was injured too. No one is saying he did not plan to come back this season, the fact of the matter is for one reason or another he didn't, and considering the reason is due to injury, that makes it even more difficult for him this season.
     
  8. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, It appears as these "comeback injuries" happen when athletes try to cram too much training in at the last minute. I'm stunned at what Yuna has done.
     
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Actually, if you look at the protocols from Calgary and adjust the point values to the current table (also switching the final fw seq to a Choreo seq), Lysacek's element score would be somewhere in the low-mid 80s, which is well up in the top 10 from 2013 Worlds. (I don't entirely understand the math involved in the factoring of combinations and the 1.1 jump distribution bonus, but I calculate about 82 points.)

    IMO the real question is not so much about what jumps he can add but whether the can even still skate his 2010 jump schedule.

    I was thinking it would have made sense for the USFS to sent him to the team event so he can test himself in competition before next season.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  10. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    As a fan of Evan who follows the news on him, the biggest surprise for me from this thread is that there is not a comment in the WP article about the "horror" of Evan being a "quadless" Olympic champion by caseyedwards, considering casey usually obsessively follows every article on Evan with the usual tired whine about his victory. You are SLIPPING, casey, get back in harness and get your righteous umbrage out there, dammit!!!!:p

    And personally, I find it amusing to imagine how much valuable time casey and others (lala, ad nauseum) have wasted venting their spleen over Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion (oooooh, I can imagine the stomach upset, teeth gnashing and rending of garments those 4 little words set off...Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion...Evan Lysacek, Olympic Champion...)
     
  11. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Why bother posting there now when you brought it up?! Lol.

    I am not a member of wapo and it's not really a wapo article but an ap one. It's in lots of places. Like I have a plushenko news alert so it will probably come up but I just posted here about it. Maybe if posted in a place I'm a member of.

    But like why bother when you thought of what would post anyway.

    Posting about it the main focus anyway would be that Plushenko was a headcase in Vancouver! I wish every headcase performed like plushenko with quad triples and triple axels!!

    Luckily his wretched Win made for so many system changes that now every top 10 performance has quads and it's near mandatory and the sport not going back to the 80's or you have nonsense about "complete" quadless skaters.
     
  12. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    No.
     
  13. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Yeah, I don't see Lysacek being able to attempt all the quads he would need in order to even be competitive with Chan and being able to skate cleanly with all that added difficulty that was absent in Vancouver. It is a completely different game out there now compared to 4 years ago! He would have to attempt a quad in the SP and 2 more in the LP and greatly improve his overall skating quality to have any hope in hell of upsetting Chan and everyone with half a brain knows it. Patrick is completely capable of outscoring Evan and everyone else in the SP by 10 points in that segment alone. He would already have a large cushion ahead of the entire field just going into the LP and could afford to make some mistakes in that segment and still win. Lysacek doesn't hold a candle to Chan in the PCS department either. He doesn't have his speed, edge quality, ease/flow, choreographic sophistication, or musical interpretation.
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Lol!
     
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    So, what is your theory regarding why the quad is worth more now? Joubert's complaints? Something else?
     
  16. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    It was rather amusing.

    I often wonder what the reaction would've been like if someone who people felt was truly outstanding in other categories (Takahashi, Buttle) won without a quad as opposed to workman-like Lysacek.
     
  17. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    From some corners, I think the reaction would have been exactly the same. :slinkaway

    I would have loved to see Buttle in Vancouver, his 2008 program is one of my all time favorites. :swoon:
     
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Frank Carroll, in the recent (pt 2) Kirk/Leese podcast, said that Lysacek needs a quad.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I, like earlier posters, would say Lysacek needs multiple quads. There are just too many skaters now doing at least one quad in the short, multiple quads in the free, some of which are in combination. As much as I admire what Evan did 3 years ago, I think he's been left behind in technical content. I wish him luck.
     
  20. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I believe if he can't get the quad steady and reliable (and multiple) he will likely not compete at Nationals and will give up the Sochi dreaming. I doubt he wants to go there to just place in the top 10 (or lower). And I say that as a big fan, being realistic here.
     
  21. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    This is why I too think quads are needed by the skaters to podium. Perhaps it may change in the future. It depends on the value of quads and how many elite competitors are bringing quads into their programs. I can off hand think of a handful of younger men who have tremendous artistry and very enjoyable to watch. But if they don't have quads, I doubt they can podium easily .. they will then need to rely on others bombing and they have perfect skates.
     
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Many said Lysacek would need a quad to win in Vancouver. A skater can't go into a competition with a lower technical base and assume that other skaters will screw up, but s/he can go out and do the program to the best of his or her ability and see where the medals land.

    Carroll said earlier that the Olympics aren't like the World Championships. How many post-figures World Champions and medalists have we seen be crushed at the Olympics? It's a long, sad list.

    Carroll's logic is that the man who won the FS this year had one beautiful quad. He didn't mention that the man who had the highest TES in the FS at 2011 Worlds, which Chan dominated, was not Chan, but Kozuka, with one beautiful quad.

    At this WC in the FS:

    1-Ten, 1 quad
    2-Chan, 2 quads
    3-Hanyu, 2 quads
    4-Fernandez, 2 quads
    5-Mura, 1 quad
    6-Aaron, 1 quad
    7-Reynolds, 3 quads, 2 <
    8-Takahashi, 1 quad, <
    9-Rogozine, 0 quads
    10-Joubert, 2 quads
    11-Brezina, 2 quads, 2 falls
    13-Miner, 1 quad, <
    14-Kovtun, 2 quads
    15-Amodio, 1 quad
    16-Majorov, 1 quad, 1 fall

    Ten's base technical score was only 2.85 points lower than Chan's. (They each doubled a planned triple.) Ten's was 10.38 lower than two-quad reigning World bronze medalist Hanyu's. It was lower than reigning three-quad Four Continents champion Kevin Reynolds (by 6.74), even though Reynolds had three < jumps. It was even 6.58 points lower than one-quad Andrei Rogozine's, and more than the difference between the 2F Ten did and the 3F Ten planned.

    It was 3 points higher than two-quad Fernandez's, the reigning European Champion. (It would have been about even if Fernandez had only only singled the lutz instead of also doubling another jump.) It was 6.48 points higher than multiple World Champion Takahashi's, and would have been higher even if Takahashi's 4T had not been <, and it would have been higher than two-quad multiple World Champion Joubert's even if Joubert had received credit for a triple jump slot he got 0 for.

    Sure, if every skater got 0 to + 3 GOE on every element like Ten did -- and Hanyu only lost 2.5 points total -- then it might have been another story. (For one thing, no one would be complaining about Chan's win.) Except that Javier Fernandez got 0-+3 GOE on everything, gained 12.73 points over base, and still was in 4th place in the FS.

    Who was Denis Ten, anyway, besides a guy with promise who struggled with injury? It's not like he came in with a great rep, and he wasn't even Top 10 at Four C's the month before. He came, he did the content he had almost the best he could, and he won the FS with his single quad.

    Lysacek comes in with a lot of rep, especially as someone who works hard and comes in and does his job. If he skates at the level he did in Vancouver, and he has a quad, Frank Carroll will likely be right that he'll be competitive. I might prefer Ten multiple times more than Lysacek, but I don't get to pick.
     
  23. allezfred

    allezfred Old and Immature Admin Staff Member

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    Takahashi has only won worlds once. :shuffle:
     
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Really? How is that possible :fragile:
     
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Unlike the run up two Vancouver where two world champions didn't have quads now all the world champions 2011-2013 have done quads. It is true you can do a one quad LP but you also need a quad in the SP. 2012 and 2013 worlds had all medalists with quads in both SP and LP. In 2009 both the gold and silver medalists didn't have any. 2011 is when lots were still doing quad free short programs. Kozuka didn't do one and Takahashi didn't do one. But that allowed Gachinski to win Bronze! So Lysacek and Carroll can look to 2011 and say One quad in the LP and you can do silver like Kozuka! And that was Chan's best worlds with no mistakes. There was real actual proof leading up to Vancouver that quads were unnecessary and there was no need to do them and two different world champions in a row didn't do them at 2009 gold and silver quad free. It's true that few really thought an Olympics would be won without a quad - because it was the Olympics. But the system had been cracked! The math was undeniable. Doing quads was stupid. It's different now. If Ten hadn't have done both SP and LP quads he wouldn't have been that close to Chan at all. He needed that SP quad- it was very important for him. But maybe Lysacek wouldn't need a SP quad. He could try to be like Kozuka in 2011.
     
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Carroll didn't say anything about Lysacek not needing a quad in the SP: he said that Lysacek didn't need more than one quad in the FS.

    Lysacek is neither Ten or Kozuka, who were until they won silver at WC's, at their best, bottom half of Top 10 skaters. Neither had the reputation, and both had been low-balled on PCS. Lysacek, on the other hand, skates with far more power than either Ten or Kozuka, which is disproportionally rewarded by judges, has commanded very high PCS, and is the reigning Olympic champion.
     
  27. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible for Lysacek to win with only one quad.
     
  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The SP was barely even mentioned. No one even mentioned Ten having a quad in his SP. It's a missing part of the whole conversation.
     
  29. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Doing quads without a complete program in accordance with the IJS (at the time) was stupid.
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Considering that Carroll coaches Ten, I'm sure he's aware of what Ten's jump content is. Carroll's point in answering one of Kirk/Leese's questions was that the winner of the FS in London needed one quad. I've already listed a bunch of data that shows who did how many quads, base scores relative to Ten's, and how little any else's quads helped them win the FS.