Virtue ~ Moir n. 20. L’amour est un oiseau rebelle

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Sep 8, 2012.

  1. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I think they will compete, in fact, I am sure they will. I understand why you are worried, but there are three key competitions at home this season and I doubt Scott's injury is that bad.

    As for C-L using Carmen, I have said before that I think this was not a coincidence and I stand by my opinion.
     
  2. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    You know , guys , I like Anna and Luca very much and have very often liked their short programs , whether OD or SD..but sometimes haven't been so fond of their FDs ( some yes , some no ).

    Though I like some moves , some sections in their Carmen , I can't say the program as a whole excites me. It just seems very generic to me. (I loved their La Strada , and think it will always stand out in my mind more.)

    Knowing the emotional power V/M can bring to a program , and knowing that they are greater technicians than C/L..I just can't imagine that V/M will be the ones to suffer from any comparison . I think this will end up looking like a poor choice for C/L.

    We'll see very soon now , at SC .. but I'm starting to get more intrigued by the annual "What will Tessa wear ?" games.;)

    ETA : Golightly..I wish I could think you're wrong .. but I wouldn't bet against you ...sadly.
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Let's all keep in mind that even if it's not a coincidence, C&L didn't necessarily know about it (I'm not saying anyone is accusing them of anything). Could be that Igor and Marina were working with the Carmen idea in the early stages, and after they split, he suggested it to C&L and they loved it, having no idea V&M had been considering it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    C-L said at FT, they work on another idea in FD at first.
    This is coaches war, not skaters. But i feel bad for skaters, because coaches couldnt separate buisness from there relationships with each other. Dont think this will play well for Igor, because he did this.
     
  5. maggylyn

    maggylyn Well-Known Member

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    He did?

    How can anyone possibly know that?

    Besides, it doesn't really matter since we do expect each team will be judged on their own skating, right? I'm kind of looking forward to the two Carmens this season. :)
     
  6. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    V/M haven't done sectionals for many, many years. I can't imagine them skating at sectionals now. They'd certainly never skate sectionals as a substitute for CoR.

    W/P are technically Northern Ontario skaters, not Western Ontario. I don't think all sections necessarily place "bye'd" skaters on their entry lists, some may, some may not. It could even vary season to season, depending on who inputs the list. I wouldn't read anything into it.
     
  7. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    To clarify: I am not saying C-L were in on it, they probably did not know. This is between Igor and Marina.
     
  8. martyross

    martyross Active Member

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    thank you so much, flowerpower!
     
  9. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    Here's the thing with the two Carmens .. Whoever had the idea , I don't think it was wise.

    Given that C/L were working in Canton before the split , it's quite possible that they and people around them could know or at least have heard strong rumours of V/M's choice.

    So what's the best the lower placed team could hope for ? They're not going to be seen as better than V/M under any circumstances..because they're not as good.. so it seems to me the best they can hope for is to catch a bit of a tailwind off V/M by setting up a false equivalency. This could also backfire big time.

    Of course the skaters are going to be judged on their skating , but we all know that perceptions still count , though to a lesser degree , under CoP. There's a chance that it could take the shine off V/M's program a bit , but I doubt that would be to C/L's benefit. It might give a slight advantage to D/W , if anything ( just because D/W's program could seem more unique ), while C/L could wind up looking like a poor imitation.

    I never understand the logic in these situations , but if it was me ,even in the case of coincidence, I'd maybe go back to the original idea, rather than get caught up in this kind of scenario. If I really had a burning desire to use Carmen , I'd save it for another season.

    It's not really the same as most cases of just coincidentally picking the same music . In this case , Carmen has such a well known story, it comes with the music. So the two portrayals will be compared.

    Like pani , it makes me feel bad for the skaters.
     
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    You could call me crazy, but i think C-L could try to show they are much better actors, then V-M. Especially, when so many people thinking Tessa couldnt do Carmen well. But Anna is the star. So it could be coaches thought, why to give C-L the same program with V-M.
    But i never could underatnd, why this teams couldnt took different music arragment.
     
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yes, I expect to hear this in every pbp thread, how about Tessa is a piece of white bread, and Anna portrays Carmen so perfectly, etc.

    If V&M wanted to do a Carmen FD, this would be the time, since N&K won the Olympics with Carmen just before V&M won their gold. I wouldn't be too scared of being compared to N&K's Carmen, but still.
     
  12. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    We shouldn´t forget that Carmen was originally meant for the SD according to an interview. Maybe *if* C&L did get the idea in Canton they didn't think it was a big deal to use the same music since it was originally worked on as a SD for V&M. When the split came they might not have known when they decided to change their FD to Carmen that V&M had decided the same thing.
     
  13. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I hope Tessa proves them (and some of you) wrong. I think many are forgetting that she's the best dancer of her generation.
     
  14. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    If you were referring to my comment, I agree about Tessa's dance skills and I think she'll be an amazing Carmen if Farrucas is anything to go by. I'm just bracing myself for the snarks that will come.
     
  15. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying that it hasn't happened before; a team purposely "stealing" or copying the music from their competitors FD but at the moment I'm also giving C&L the benefit of the doubt. Didn't V&M get a relatively late start on their programs? Given that most teams (even the top seniors) have their programs finished by mid summer then wouldn't C&L's dance have been done by the time V&M/Marina chose Carmen and had it choreographed?

    I really like C&L's Carmen FD. True that it's nothing ground breaking; it's kind of a classic interpretation of Carmen, what you would expect but Anna does do a great job with this piece and it shows off the improvements in C&L's skating. That doesn't mean I think she will upstage Tessa. Honestly you can't compare the two except for the artistic merit as even though C&L have improved they still aren't in the position to go head to head against V&M. Any advancements C&L might make this year (possible podium finish) will probably be at Europeans.

    I'm also not really phased by V&M's names being listed for sectionals. If Scott's injury was worse than team V&M are letting on then I would expect there would be no competitions in the fall and then coming back for the major ones in the final half of the season. And since V&M competed all of last season, wouldn't they have a bye to Canadians anyway? Sectionals wouldn't be required of them would it?
     
  16. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    ^
    That is right, they have a bye straight through to Canadian nationals.

    ETA: IIRC the last time they competed at sectionals was back in 2004 or thereabouts (that was in the fall of their first season competing as seniors nationally).
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  17. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    We didnt know that, but C-L said they want to use something different at first. So they could change there minds after Igor tell them about "Carmen".
    And problem is why C-L use the Shedrin? They never look like ballet team and i think opera will suit them much better, where face work is very important, but different story in ballet interpretation ;)
    From the other hand, they could thinking about V-M will change FD, like D-W did last season with "La Strada". But honestly - when C-L last time skated at the same war-up with top teams at competitions?
    And i am sure, people will talk about "Carmen" is worst choice for Tess, but this could play in another way - judges could see how bad C-L are compare to T-S :D
    I dont know what will happened, but wish all the best to T-S. I only hate they are part of there coaches games and need to prove Marina is right.
    I like C-L too so good luck to them. But it will better for them to change FD this time. But again - Igor need to prove he is right.
    I think skaters dont need to take part in such games and Marina isnt V-M mom, so why they need to work on her reputation?
     
  18. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's going to be really annoying how people will jump on the CL bandwagon to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the judges. But honestly I don't think that Anna has very much personality and does not portray Carmen very well.
     
  19. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    The more I watch different dance performances to Carmen on youtube and watch the program C&L have I´d be surprised if V&M don't come up with something different. C&L's performance and choreography I find performs more to the audience and judges whereas V&M tend to interact more intimately with each other giving the impression you are watching a private moment. I just can't picture them skating similar style as C&L. If they do their choreographers should be shot ;) <----doesn´t mean I don´t like C&L, it suits them, but V&M should be capable of a much deeper emotional performance.
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  20. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Thank you. Finally someone puts it into perspective. That sort of intimate interaction is something that V/M are masters at, which stands out, especially since very few teams are capable of it (D/W certainly aren't, and neither are P/B, but I would argue that W/P can do it really well, though in a different way than V/M). I have no doubt that they will interpret the piece this way. Why wouldn't they? That "in your face" performance style that C/L have has never been V/M's style (I love C/L by the way, so I'm not trying to insult them here at all, just pointing out a style difference). I don't think the two programs will end up looking anything like each other, and with all of the music from Carmen that is available, I wouldn't be surprised if the music ends up being quite different as well. Never mind the fact that V/M are much better ice dancers, in general, than C/L (and pretty much everyone else).

    As for Tessa not being able to act, that's a joke. We've seen her nail characters time and time again. I expect this will be no different. Sure, scott might be a bit more intense, which has always been the case, but it's not like her's going to outshine her or anything like that. Tessa has always held her own, and what I've loved about V/M from day one is that they always perform as a unit, and the focus is always on both of them together and not individually.

    If giving C/L Carmen was Igor's way of getting back at Marina, which I honestly doubt (they cannot possibly be that immature), then it'll backfire. Regardless of V/M's choreo, they will always look better than C/L based on skill alone. And besides, we fans might be discussing this to no end, but at the end of the day I really don't think the judges are going to care who's skating to what.
     
  21. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Such a long way untill SC....
    Did you notice, there will not be Canadian judge at WCh? Like it was in Nice with USA judge. So will Canada have two medals in ice dance in London?
     
  22. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Just surfaced from a bad cold and a trip to California. Hoping for some new tidbits but have come up short.

    Counting the days....
     
  23. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    skatingfan04,

    I don't think I was trying to put anything into perspective but instead just stating my opinion based on viewing a number of Carmen's now. I was initially a bit worried about a direct comparison because I think C&L are charming characters on ice. But having now seen their program and having watched a number of Carmen performances (skating and ballet) I feel more confident V&M can do a better job. Just a matter of whether their choreographer does ;) I think there is much more you can bring to Carmen then C&L have done. I don't see the passion and intensity I see in the version Bestemianova & Bukin did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iju_RarH3rk or the dancers here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAbrB8R0E . I think Tessa and Scott can do this.
     
  24. iggie

    iggie Well-Known Member

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    marina isn't doing the choreography on her own, remember. jennifer swan is helping out so there will be outside help and a breath of fresh air. i too watched so many ice dance carmens and they all began to look alike and i thought that there was so much more that tessa and scott could do.
     
  25. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I'm glad Jennifer Swan is working with them. I just didn't see her name in the ISU bio that went up but I hope her input is more than is reflected on that.
     
  26. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    She's an outside choreographer, that's why she isn't listed there.
     
  27. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I notice this too and hope she really worked with Tessa and Scott on choreo ;)
    Only i wonder T-S didnt have Epshtein in there coaching list, like D-W and Shibs. And Shibs have Margalio in choreograhfers. Did he really made some choreo for them? This will be interesting to see if it was so :)
    And Mrinas husband is only in T-S profile.
     
  28. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Well, Pani, I believe that is what they said.

    Haven't you guys noticed that V-M seem to be working more at home? I very much doubt they train full-time in Canton, I think they are spending more time training in Canada.
     
  29. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i last interview, wich PJ posted, Tessa said they spend 180 days in USA.
    But in last season ISU profile London/ON was post in traning location, but now only Canton.
     
  30. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Did you read, that Igor did entire choreography for C-L Free Dance?
    So the war will begin at SC? :rollin: