Virtue ~ Moir n. 20. L’amour est un oiseau rebelle

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Sep 8, 2012.

  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yes, I expect to hear this in every pbp thread, how about Tessa is a piece of white bread, and Anna portrays Carmen so perfectly, etc.

    If V&M wanted to do a Carmen FD, this would be the time, since N&K won the Olympics with Carmen just before V&M won their gold. I wouldn't be too scared of being compared to N&K's Carmen, but still.
  2. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    We shouldn´t forget that Carmen was originally meant for the SD according to an interview. Maybe *if* C&L did get the idea in Canton they didn't think it was a big deal to use the same music since it was originally worked on as a SD for V&M. When the split came they might not have known when they decided to change their FD to Carmen that V&M had decided the same thing.
  3. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I hope Tessa proves them (and some of you) wrong. I think many are forgetting that she's the best dancer of her generation.
  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    If you were referring to my comment, I agree about Tessa's dance skills and I think she'll be an amazing Carmen if Farrucas is anything to go by. I'm just bracing myself for the snarks that will come.
  5. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    I'm not saying that it hasn't happened before; a team purposely "stealing" or copying the music from their competitors FD but at the moment I'm also giving C&L the benefit of the doubt. Didn't V&M get a relatively late start on their programs? Given that most teams (even the top seniors) have their programs finished by mid summer then wouldn't C&L's dance have been done by the time V&M/Marina chose Carmen and had it choreographed?

    I really like C&L's Carmen FD. True that it's nothing ground breaking; it's kind of a classic interpretation of Carmen, what you would expect but Anna does do a great job with this piece and it shows off the improvements in C&L's skating. That doesn't mean I think she will upstage Tessa. Honestly you can't compare the two except for the artistic merit as even though C&L have improved they still aren't in the position to go head to head against V&M. Any advancements C&L might make this year (possible podium finish) will probably be at Europeans.

    I'm also not really phased by V&M's names being listed for sectionals. If Scott's injury was worse than team V&M are letting on then I would expect there would be no competitions in the fall and then coming back for the major ones in the final half of the season. And since V&M competed all of last season, wouldn't they have a bye to Canadians anyway? Sectionals wouldn't be required of them would it?
  6. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    ^
    That is right, they have a bye straight through to Canadian nationals.

    ETA: IIRC the last time they competed at sectionals was back in 2004 or thereabouts (that was in the fall of their first season competing as seniors nationally).
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  7. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    We didnt know that, but C-L said they want to use something different at first. So they could change there minds after Igor tell them about "Carmen".
    And problem is why C-L use the Shedrin? They never look like ballet team and i think opera will suit them much better, where face work is very important, but different story in ballet interpretation ;)
    From the other hand, they could thinking about V-M will change FD, like D-W did last season with "La Strada". But honestly - when C-L last time skated at the same war-up with top teams at competitions?
    And i am sure, people will talk about "Carmen" is worst choice for Tess, but this could play in another way - judges could see how bad C-L are compare to T-S :D
    I dont know what will happened, but wish all the best to T-S. I only hate they are part of there coaches games and need to prove Marina is right.
    I like C-L too so good luck to them. But it will better for them to change FD this time. But again - Igor need to prove he is right.
    I think skaters dont need to take part in such games and Marina isnt V-M mom, so why they need to work on her reputation?
  8. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's going to be really annoying how people will jump on the CL bandwagon to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the judges. But honestly I don't think that Anna has very much personality and does not portray Carmen very well.
  9. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    The more I watch different dance performances to Carmen on youtube and watch the program C&L have I´d be surprised if V&M don't come up with something different. C&L's performance and choreography I find performs more to the audience and judges whereas V&M tend to interact more intimately with each other giving the impression you are watching a private moment. I just can't picture them skating similar style as C&L. If they do their choreographers should be shot ;) <----doesn´t mean I don´t like C&L, it suits them, but V&M should be capable of a much deeper emotional performance.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  10. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Thank you. Finally someone puts it into perspective. That sort of intimate interaction is something that V/M are masters at, which stands out, especially since very few teams are capable of it (D/W certainly aren't, and neither are P/B, but I would argue that W/P can do it really well, though in a different way than V/M). I have no doubt that they will interpret the piece this way. Why wouldn't they? That "in your face" performance style that C/L have has never been V/M's style (I love C/L by the way, so I'm not trying to insult them here at all, just pointing out a style difference). I don't think the two programs will end up looking anything like each other, and with all of the music from Carmen that is available, I wouldn't be surprised if the music ends up being quite different as well. Never mind the fact that V/M are much better ice dancers, in general, than C/L (and pretty much everyone else).

    As for Tessa not being able to act, that's a joke. We've seen her nail characters time and time again. I expect this will be no different. Sure, scott might be a bit more intense, which has always been the case, but it's not like her's going to outshine her or anything like that. Tessa has always held her own, and what I've loved about V/M from day one is that they always perform as a unit, and the focus is always on both of them together and not individually.

    If giving C/L Carmen was Igor's way of getting back at Marina, which I honestly doubt (they cannot possibly be that immature), then it'll backfire. Regardless of V/M's choreo, they will always look better than C/L based on skill alone. And besides, we fans might be discussing this to no end, but at the end of the day I really don't think the judges are going to care who's skating to what.
  11. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Such a long way untill SC....
    Did you notice, there will not be Canadian judge at WCh? Like it was in Nice with USA judge. So will Canada have two medals in ice dance in London?
  12. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Just surfaced from a bad cold and a trip to California. Hoping for some new tidbits but have come up short.

    Counting the days....
  13. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    skatingfan04,

    I don't think I was trying to put anything into perspective but instead just stating my opinion based on viewing a number of Carmen's now. I was initially a bit worried about a direct comparison because I think C&L are charming characters on ice. But having now seen their program and having watched a number of Carmen performances (skating and ballet) I feel more confident V&M can do a better job. Just a matter of whether their choreographer does ;) I think there is much more you can bring to Carmen then C&L have done. I don't see the passion and intensity I see in the version Bestemianova & Bukin did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iju_RarH3rk or the dancers here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAbrB8R0E . I think Tessa and Scott can do this.
  14. iggie

    iggie New Member

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    marina isn't doing the choreography on her own, remember. jennifer swan is helping out so there will be outside help and a breath of fresh air. i too watched so many ice dance carmens and they all began to look alike and i thought that there was so much more that tessa and scott could do.
  15. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I'm glad Jennifer Swan is working with them. I just didn't see her name in the ISU bio that went up but I hope her input is more than is reflected on that.
  16. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    She's an outside choreographer, that's why she isn't listed there.
  17. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I notice this too and hope she really worked with Tessa and Scott on choreo ;)
    Only i wonder T-S didnt have Epshtein in there coaching list, like D-W and Shibs. And Shibs have Margalio in choreograhfers. Did he really made some choreo for them? This will be interesting to see if it was so :)
    And Mrinas husband is only in T-S profile.
  18. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Well, Pani, I believe that is what they said.

    Haven't you guys noticed that V-M seem to be working more at home? I very much doubt they train full-time in Canton, I think they are spending more time training in Canada.
  19. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i last interview, wich PJ posted, Tessa said they spend 180 days in USA.
    But in last season ISU profile London/ON was post in traning location, but now only Canton.
  20. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Did you read, that Igor did entire choreography for C-L Free Dance?
    So the war will begin at SC? :rollin:
  21. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Where did you read that? Thought they said in an earlier interview they chose Igor over Marina in the split because they had their own choreographer?
  22. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I knew it.

    As for the "war", you are giving this supposed battle way too much importance. It's like comparing Roger Federer to Tommy Haas, two players who are part of the same generation with two very different careers.
  23. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    http://www.artonice.it/?q=en/node/12256

  24. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Thanks and hmmm :lol: It's weird to explain but knowing that he choreographed that makes me less impressed with the FD. Probably because of all the posts I read about how Igor would have been the better choice over Marina for better programs and I don´t feel that program is unique or outstanding. It does however explain why some movements reminded me of Tessa and Meryl.
  25. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    At one message board a lot off people said Anna look like Tessa in FD, but not in SD. Now i understand why.
    And thats why this FD didnt look so great like Paola Mizzardi and Luidmila Vlasova work. (at this point).
    But we didnt saw Marina work in this season yet.
  26. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Yes. We need to see what they did. I feel confident they are capable of better but it will be interesting to see them side by side at SC.
  27. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    I've always tried to resist thinking the worst of Igor...( Why did I bother ?:rolleyes: )

    I tried to think he couldn't have encouraged the C/B pairing ,which left Emily high and dry ( and IMO has far less potential than S/B had )...

    Tried to refrain from taking sides over the split ... But I have to say this seems petty and vindictive.

    I feel sorry for all the skaters .
  28. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thats my point too :( And this show how skaters belive in there coaches and there ideas. Before split Tessa never thought about "Carmen", Anna and Luca had another idea for FD.
    Coaches will be OK, they have a lot off years of coaching ahead of them. But some skaters have only 2 years ahead.
  29. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone think Scott's injury might have given them time to work on another FD? I hope this isn't a stupid question, but if you think it is, then ignore it :).
  30. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    No because they've known they were skating the same FD for a while now and in the middle of September at HPC they said they were skating to Carmen. Doesn't make sense they would then suddenly switch FDs.
  31. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Hm... Considering D-W changed FD after USA traning camp, this could happened.
    From other hand - i think if Tessa-Scott have made something special in FD and they both sure in this FD, they need to save it. Just IMHO.
  32. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  33. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    The "Part 1" was just probably some sort of template. R/H's and W/P's profiles are the same, with part 1 even though with just a single music entry.

    Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje

    ETA: Oops, I was thinking more in the lines of changing the music, as was speculated above, not the original opera versus Shchedrin ballet suite. Hope that was just an error, just like the nonupdate of the coaches entry.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  34. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Davis/White didn't change their FD after the USA camp. It was said long before the camp that they had considered Sinatra for their FD at first, but had chosen different music. There was no actual dance made to that Sinatra music. Besides, they also said long before the training camp that their FD music was something that they had wanted to skate to for a long time. And recently they said in an interview that 'Notre Dame de Paris' was that music they had wanted to use for a long time.

    As for Tessa and Scott's FD - I too think that they haven't thought about changing their FD if they really like it.
  35. shsocu

    shsocu Active Member

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    They didn't change any of their programs after Champs Camp this year. Last season they changed their FD and the season before that it was their SD.
  36. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Which one of the two coaches/choreographers was the first to give Carmen to their students, Marina to V/M or Igor to C/L? Whichever one it was, I find the other stealing the theme just as a way to pay back to be a totally immature thing to do for someone their age and experience. Anyway, I hope Tessa and Scott will come up with more valuable and convincing Carmen material than what I've seen from Cappellini/Lanotte recently.
  37. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I was talking about last season, not about this year Champs Camp.
  38. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I think we will never found who was the first. But i think this was V-M, just because this was idea for SD.
  39. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Which is exactly what Tessa wanted to imply when she said they initially considered Carmen for the SD. She's a smart kid, she knew what she was saying. I am sorry, but from the moment I found out about C-L doing Carmen, it did not sit well. You could tell. And, again, I am not blaming C-L, who I like very much, they probably did not know. But I do not buy for one second that this was a coincidence.
  40. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, at the new FSU layout!

    I don't even know what to say. The more articles I read, the more I definitely feel this was done deliberately. It's kinda sad.
    Do you think that they changed their music from the suite to the opera because wasn't it confirmed somewhere else that they too were using the suite like C/L?
    I don't think that's enough time to change a FD, but like I was inquiring above, they might have changed the music.
    I don't understand, what was she trying to imply when she said they initially considered Carmen for the SD?