Virtue & Moir # 23 - Dance Me To The End Of Love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Is the podcast out already?

    Re: the kick. It was perfect here, look how she finds her leverage with her other boot with a pretty extension and the matching lines of their legs, the pose at the end is very pretty too. I've been a fan of that movement from the start and I hope it stays, but I understand if they decide to remove it.

    Isn't it awesome that we can sit and talk about each little movement? Deconstruct the whole dance and just talk about it? There's so much to see and to praise.
     
  2. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Yes, the podcast is out. I was a little confused at first, because it's marked in iTunes as "Grand Prix of Russia". Then I looked at the date and figured it out.

    Speaking of "deconstructing", the camerawork makes it difficult to see the details of the new diagonal step seq, but after rewatching it I think it's just as difficult as the original one - even if a little less spectacular. The middle portion, where they switch from a side by side position to dance hold and back is quite challenging and they'll need to polish that.
     
  3. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I was going to say that too. It still looks quite different and demanding. That's the step sequence they need to nail because it leads to the most spectacular section of the program. You can feel the tension building and building and hey, it's only fitting considering the theme of the program.

    Anyone knows who made the music cuts? I don't think we have mentioned it, but they did a very, very good job in selecting the perfect cuts. And then the choreographers did an even greater job at making the music part of the program. Let me explain, music is of course always a part of programs, but here it's another character. They are not only skating together, but they are interacting with the music: the twizzles, his kick, then hers, the first lift. These are movements that elevate the accents in the music, it's not just them timing their movements to the music, it's them elevating the beats and pauses.
     
  4. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I think the kick was just as awkward here as it's been in previous outings (except SC obviously). The only time it has looked good to me was in one of the earliest practice videos we saw, it might have been the CTV one.

    I can't believe we wouldn't see them compete again until next year. I'm nervous cuz I hope they don't make changes that will water down the artistic qualities of Carmen just for the sake of gaining more points.
     
  5. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    and those are what the judges are missing on.
     
  6. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    lmao exactly! m/c cant NEVER execute carmen like v/m however considering how basic ND is v/m could execute that better considering how versatile they are:lol:

    eta: heck im even sure P/B can make ND more interesting
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  7. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    That's one of the reasons it's such a great program. Tessa mentioned last year that they had a hard time selecting the pieces from Funny Face, because they liked so many of them. My guess is they choose the music themselves, together with Marina. Jennifer Swan may have contributed as well, after they decided to change the choreography. What I really love is that they've picked "La fleur que tu m'avais jetée" for the lyrical part, which I don't remember having been used in the previous famous Carmen programs and it's perfect for the mood they set in that portion of the program.

    In the podcast, Kurt mentions the last lift and the fact that they had some trouble with it and it cost them in the score. He also says they should maybe put a few cross-overs between that lift and the previous one - but that's not possible without completely modifying the choreography, which I don't think they will.
     
  8. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Five things I loved about V/M at the GPF and Five Things I want them to improve on

    1. LOVED the cleanliness of the polka. Beautifully skated.

    2. LOVED the time they took to set a mood throughout the SD - even if it wasn't SD appropriate.

    3. The combination lift in Carmen is exquisitely timed.

    4. The transitions/linking movement throughout are insanely awesome. The madness leap/lift!!!!

    5. The rotational lift. The insane entry (seriously guys - a fricking twisting assisted backflip?), the two positions and switch. This lift is remarkable. The timing needs to be spot on or it fails. The passion needs to be extreme or it doesn't hit hard enough. Extreme passion cannot be too wild because being too wild means the lift becomes too scary to watch. There's a reason the commentators are gasping.

    ----

    1. This dance could've been hotter.

    2. Tessa's final expression was more forlorn than triumphant. She needs to be triumphant at the end. It's an empty triumph, but that final gesture needs to feel like a violent decapitation.

    3. The choreolift. I love the lift. I think they can make it clean (maybe shorten the time between the second step sequence and the f. If so, it will be spectacular.

    4. The footwork and transitions need to be smoother.

    5. The spin. Needs to be faster.
     
  9. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    idk about you guys but i like to think v/m's carmen is literature on ice considering its like a deconstruction of bizet's opera (and the novella it was inspired by)
    because they deconstructed it it's more like a focus on how abusive carmen and don jose's relationship is (this why i get so pissed of when people call carmen just another romantic routine)
    don jose really just wants to control carmen's sexuality
    he wants to subjugate her
    and the reason why their relationship is abusive is because they have these huge ideals about the place of women and men in a relationship
    carmen wants to be free, don jose just wants her for himself
    and because it's deconstructed you can compare it to other works of victorian literature in which the characters relationship with other characters are quite similar
    for example, it really reminded me of Lulie and Campbell's relationship in D'arcy's The Pleasure Pilgrim and Monica and Edward Widdowson in Gissing's The Odd Women. it also kind reminds me Ellen Olenska and Newland Archer's relationship in The Age of Innocence and i guess why they are all similar is because the characters occupy the same binary oppositions and like v/m are protraying the oppositions carmen and don jose occupy and placing them in a hierarchy (in which carmen wins) or something. idek my knowledge of derrida's deconstructionism is rusty but i like to think he would approve of their dance. I feel like its so easy to apply derrida's deconstruction theory to their dance and it kinda helps me understand his theory more (thanks tessa and scott! :lol:)
    if my memory of deconstructionism/post-structualism wasnt so rusty i would be able to analyze their dance using derrida's theory

    eta:
    her facial expression was triumphant you just couldnt see it because the coverage at GPF sucked so much (but you can see it here in the slomo replay :http://youtu.be/NTIYowCzhVA?t=6m26s)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
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  10. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Very good comments, Proustable, as always. I agree with everything you said, except I have my doubts about the spin. It's gorgeous, with interesting positions and the exit is one of my favourite moments in the program (I so love their expressions). But I don't know if they can make it faster, especially the first position. If they manage to make it a bit more tight and centered than yesterday, it should look good (although it already looked improved).
     
  11. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Anyone who perceives Carmen as just another romantic routine is either blind or has the most f***ed up love life imaginable.
     
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  12. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Re: Showcasing the Yankee Polka...

    Yes and no. Last year's pattern dance was rhumba, and I don't remember anyone debating who best captured the rhumba feeling, just the overall "Latin vibe." The only couple who put a great emphasis on rhumba was R&T, and they generally got reamed for it being too boring. When Denkova & Staviyski did the baroque OD and had a slow start, everyone was all "it's illegal, it's a minuet and not a waltz, it's beautiful but it's not within the grand ball theme." And in the end they won their first world medal and it is remembered as a classic. If V&M were getting the scores, then everyone would be saying that the modern dance vibe of their program is so brilliant and they managed to make polka work in a way that isn't expected. So I think these concerns are overstated.

    However, it was dumb of them to go on the record saying they hate polka and crammed in the least possible amount of it they could. I personally loved those comments because of the refreshing honesty, but it's not good strategy. It's like when Plushy admitted prior to Vancouver that he didn't have many transitions. Why give the judges the reason to mark you down? These comments always come back to bite you in the ass, and I think D&W's interviews about how they hate ballet will do just the same eventually.

    Re: Artistic integrity vs winning

    Ideally, they'll just tweak one or two things in Carmen in a way that doesn't effect the dance, all the while continuing to work on polishing each step, and will be able to win Worlds with this program.

    However, if it came down to making big changes in order to win, then as much as it sucks, I would rather see them do it and win. They are athletes first. They are here to take titles, not to be martyrs for art. I appreciate their concern about their legacy, but remember, many felt that A&P's best performance of Libertas came at Lalique, and the version from SLC was watered down. It has not diminished their legacy in any way, IMO. We'll always have the videos from their Grand Prix outings of Carmen, and we'll always know what it meant in their career.

    If FDs are no longer the vehicles for artistic growth, then let them go back to doing Umbrellas of Cherbourg type FDs, just as D&W are still doing Phantom type FDs, and they can use their exhibitions to show off their dance skills. I always wished V&M would push it more in exhibitions anyway. They tend to skate to a lot of ballads, why not do something really out of the box? Their Beethoven violin concerto is my absolute favorite, but I think they only performed it like once. K&P and T&D both did their most avant garde stuff as pros, so I hope V&M explore that.
     
  13. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    i love the elaboration, but are the judges and general audience smart enough to know that? they just see all sexuality and applaud/approve/reward the upfront speed and drama, but they cant get it into their heads that the carmen FD is more layered and nuanced. v/m's FD is too cerebral/intellectual (how's that for something that's sexual?) for the general public consumption.
     
  14. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    To be honest they didn't say a whole lot that I remember. Tracy said it was a great podium adn mentioned that Sccott said they'd have to go home and see where they lost points. She said they lost points on the last lift and the spin and that it's just fractions and Kurt said something like nothing against the judges but sometime when it's this close they look for you to give them a reason to 'pull the trigger' or 'pull out the gun':lol: something like that. Nothing very insightful.
     
  15. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    :lol: or they just don't like V/M so they make s*#t up.
     
  16. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Except the pro-circuit is very far from what it was in the 90s and I doubt it will get any better. There's no incentive for the skaters to push the limits, to show originality. That's why I'm so happy for Carmen and I'm sure they won't disappoint us next year either. It's their last chance at something memorable.

    You made me revisit A&P's Lalique video which I hadn't seen in years! I had even forgotten the ending was different. You're right, the Olympics version was watered down a lot, but for me personally watching the SLC dance event in the middle of the night in my college dorm will always be a great memory!:) I was a big A&P fan and still am.

    Sequins, thank you for the comments!
     
  17. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    yeah i had someone tell me that v/m's carmen is the most misogynistic carmen and that its too sexual but like its their interpretation that is misogynistic and they're the ones being anti-sex etc. as they are only viewing it at surface level
    really tho if people find v/m too vulgar and obscene perhaps they should'nt be watching ice dancing and perhaps they should be watching baby einstein instead :lol:
     
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yeah, I wish there were a serious pro circuit again. :( I'm sure they could do something more esoteric on SOI if they wanted.

    I love A&P's Olympic performance also, it's a great memory for me as well. :)
     
  19. elle123

    elle123 Member

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    I have all the faith in the world that Tessa and Scott will pull it off at 4CC and Worlds. I was feeling really down after yesterday but you all have made me feel much better! Even if people don't believe that V/M are better ice dancers than D/W, I'd like to make the assertion that V/M have the best fans ;) (YES! I said it and I will most likely take abuse for it)

    Onward and upwards indeed, my friends :)
     
  20. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    yup, some quarters are saying that they can't show v/m's fd to their kids, that it's too pg13 or something. they and their kids can certainly watch baby einstein. ;) with the hope that their brains evolve enough to understand more intellectual subjects. otherwise, they can just watch barney too. hehehe
     
  21. elle123

    elle123 Member

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    I guess they can't show their kids pairs skating either when a good chunk of time, the guys are holding up the girls by the butt/thigh. HOW SCANDALOUS! :rolleyes:

    BTW, I love this quote from Marina from the Dimanno article:

    “It’s not too risky, no way. They’re Olympic champions. If you want to be Olympic champion, you have to bring newness to the sport.’’

    Well said, Marina. I don't want to be snarky and call out other teams but you guys are smart enough to read between the lines :)
     
  22. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    OMG are you serious? That is absolute ridiculous, nonsense. I guess these people never watched skating back in the 80's, 90's, the costuming alone would've sent them into a frenzy. I remember going to SC in 96 and Marina Anissina's OD costume caused everyone to have a good chuckle but I didn't see anyone running for the exit with blindfolded children. People need to grow up and get a life. 'Protecting' your kids from V/M 'Carmen' should be the least of a parents worries. Sorry but I can't believe the stupidity of this. Why don't they say 'I don't like V/M' cause that's about what it boils down to.:rolleyes:

    Oh and you're very welcome IoanaC!
     
  23. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

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    yep im dead serious. someone actually posted that, that carmen is not appropriate for kids under 13 hehehe
     
  24. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Hi, guys. I'd just like to get it out here. I just finished watching their gala at Sochi, and it really felt like they were healing each other's disappointment and sorrow skating to Hallelujah. I truly believe that the best is yet to come for them, and that they will grow on this letdown and only get better.:swoon:
     
  25. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Tessa with Vasilisa Davankova (Jr. pairs) at the banquet, I presume.

    http://instagram.com/p/TBm1d3jOEY/

    I don't know if google translate got it right, but the twitter message seems to be "Oh baby, it's so cool!":lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  26. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Um Tessa's dress is wow! Where did you find this pic, tumblr? Are there others?

    I've been told some people out there say Tessa is fat! I want to cuss all of them out right now...to their face.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  27. ceg15

    ceg15 New Member

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    Hello all,

    I do not post here much, but just wanted to give my two cents about this weekend...

    I too was very dissapponted, but as elle123 said, I have no doubt that they will pull off wins at Four Continents and Worlds...those comments by Marina saying to "wait and see at the next competition" are interesting as well. It is frustrating though that they don't get rewarded for what they do, when Meryl and Charlie seem to speed around the ice each year doing recycled elements to sweeping music...(same old, same old). Also very frustrating that they get higher marks than them in choreography, etc. However, I am trying to remain positive!! I just cannot imagine them not winning in London :)

    My friend's mother works at Parliament Hill, and got me a personalized autograph from them that she surprised me with last night, I'm so excited, just thought I'd share :)

    I too am concerned with the kick move... I thought it looked better here as well like some posters said, but it still seems a little off. I think though, that it's look of imperfection adds to the notion of the struggle in their relationship. Not sure if they'll change it or not or if they even should. As for the final choreographic lift... I LOVE it and thing it works perfectly with the end of the program...however if it's losing them points, then maybe they should change it.

    I loved listening to Kurt and Tracey's comments...it's obvious who Kurt's favorites are but they still manage to stay objective :)

    Also, thanks rainbowkisses for the slow motion video of Tessa's expression...wow, just wow.

    I love reading all of your posts guys, and it's great having a place to come to like this to see what all the other V/M fans are saying, and all of the analysis is great too. :)
     
  28. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    I have no idea, I found it by chance while I was searching for information about some junior skaters.

    Nice to meet you, Ceg15!:)
     
  29. ceg15

    ceg15 New Member

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    P.S. Has anyone found a video up of their gala performance today yet?
     
  30. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    This is something I've been noticing for the past few weeks and didn't want to react, but it's becoming a sort of invasion of craziness. I don't know if it's because things get more tense between the fans of the two teams, as we're approching the Oly season... I like reading Golden Skate, even if I don't post there, but every ice dance thread, and especially the GPF one, is full of cheap shots to Tessa and Scott. Tessa "doesn't have a slight frame" as the other dancers, their lifts look laboured, poor Scott is a martyr and she will end up breaking his neck. So I've decided to avoid GS for a while, although there are a few posters there whose opinions I enjoy reading.
    I know we can also be nasty when we criticize their skating, but no one here has ever delivered personal insults to Meryl or Charlie, as far as I remember.
    And youtube commentaries aren't any better. I'm wondering what's gotten into people... This is a time when I really hope Tessa and Scott stay away from the wonderful world of the internet.