Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Dec 8, 2012.
I don't suppose there are any youtube videos of v/m's fd yet?
Big improvement. What is it with the Russians showing it from above grrrr? I think they have to tweak that ending and I agree with whoever mentioned the leg kicking part .. can hardly wait until Canadians now. I'll be at worlds too so I'm really excited about that
It's not so much my concern as it is my pointing out the obvious. V&M and D&W have the same base value, the difference is in the GOE awarded and 67% of that difference is down to the choreographic lift. There is a 0.86 difference between their TES scores, 0.58 of that amount is down to the choreographic lift. Even judges who showered V&M with 2s and 3s in GOE for all their other elements gave 1, 0, -1 for that lift. They don't like it and I think it's because it doesn't move well or at least that is the appearance after the really dynamic lift that precedes it so it kind of ends on a whimper. I don't think it's selling out or losing your artistic integrity to realize that your vision might need to be adjusted. Sometimes you buy a beautiful piece of furniture knowing exactly where you are going to place it but when you bring it home you are disappointed to see it blocks the light. So you are disappointed but you really love the piece itself so you move it and discover it's not quite what you imagined but you still love it and it brings you great joy. Just move that lift and let the light of the program shine through to the end.
Btw..I´m deliberately ignoring the PCS and will wait to see what that is like later in the season before freaking out.
Now that I've seen it, I actually like the new circular step sequence. However, I prefer the old straight line step sequence (so unfortunate that COP is flawed in the way it assigns levels since I think the original straight line step sequence is more difficult).
And I agree with others, that choreo lift is too difficult to get good GOEs on and they should revisit that.
This is why I'm not panicking so much at this stage of the season. Every time they take it out there it's smoother and gets more and more beautiful to watch. I miss Tessa doing her mad twizzle in the middle of their diagonal but I do like the ending of it.
Well, I'll be unpopular along with the two of you and take my lumps along with it.
I'm sorry, even with the lift that should probably be changed I thought even with all the tweaks that are done each year to the marking system the basics remain. CoP is a marking system in which each team starts with a base score but can rack up points by doing other things correctly. Each segment provides that opportunity. Even if the judges are having issues with the lift and the execution of it, V&M are doing so many other things at such a high standard that continously having D&W outpoint them (higher choreography scores, really?) it's ridiculous. Especially this season.
It's true that V&M build as the season progresses but what they skated this weekend was more than enough to give them a victory at least in the FD.
Even many big names and icons in the icedance world have commented on V&M's programs (Carmen in particular) and how their skating is the best in the field. It's not just us whiny V&M. fans. I mean not even coming closer in the FD?
I say this gently because I understand that you prefer Carmen over Notre Dame, but I have to roll my eyes at this and as I see this, this almost an insult to D/W's integrity. What you are saying is that V/M should automatically win because they have a better program without actually taking into account the actual skating? Truth this, D&W's skated the heck out of that program, especially Charlie. You're also insinuating Tessa and Scott SHOULD benefit from decisions prior to any teams have skated
Also, are you really saying that D&W win because the US Figure Skating is politicking? Like the USFS really has the money to do that....
Allow me to back at you. Everybody is politicking. The US fed is certainly no exception.
And yes, we DO take into account the actual skating when we say that Carmen should win.
It's a piss off that Davis and White won today. Especially with program components. If it doesn't change by 4cc I'll explode.
I wanted to postiive rep you for this, but I can't right now. I completely agree with you.
Abso-freaking-lutely. All feds politik and the USFS is no exception. And, yes, we also take into account the actual skating when we say Carmen should win.
I agree that everybody is politicking.
My concern is with the COP and the judge's interpretation of COP.
The easiest one to tackle is the choreo. In my mind, the choreo mark should be independent of performance. In essence, the choreo mark should have already been assigned even before the skaters skate (and we know the judges already know the choreo for all the top teams). However, it seems to me the choreo mark always correlates with performance to some extent. Unless the judges are saying that T/S's choreo is not as interesting, complex, or novel as M/C's. To that, I have no words.
I posted this elsewhere but it's depressing (and scandalous) that Virtue and Moir lost PCS to that hideous program of Davis and White's.
I don't know what to think about this season. I don't know if the marking of Davis and White is to make up for last season's worlds results (where a lot of people thought Davis and White should have won with DF), is it because the judges are planning on giving Virtue and Moir the world title so they are throwing D/W the "GPF bone" (like last season), or are they setting D/W up to win worlds (remember no Canadian judge on the panel in London) and so giving them these kind of marks and point difference over Virtue and Moir means it won't be a surprise or scandal if V/M lose to D/W by the time Worlds in V/Ms hometown rolls around.
What I'd like to know is what Marina Z is doing and saying behind the scenes.
One of my big fears after the manufactured controversy over V/M's win at Worlds last season was that they would pay for it politically this year. I'm starting to think I was right on target with that fear. At this point, due solely to poltiics, I'll be shocked if they win again internationally this season.
Guys, I don't think we have to panic yet? Yes, it bothers me too. Yes, what they are doing is not being appreciated, but there's time. Remember all this negativity affected their performance last year. Let's try to focus on the positives: both programs grew. The free dance even gained more than 5 points, that's good. It is a program that can keep growing. You know who should feel sad? C-L. I do not get the Grand Prix judges, which is why I ask again: are these judges allowed to be on international-level panels such as the 4CC, Worlds and the Olympics?
You guys I'm actually happy they scored at least 108 I thought they might get 105 cuz the judges refuse to see this incredible, artistic program for what it is. It's so frustrating! I hope that Tessa and Scott don't start making all these changes to the programs like they did last year. Lets be honest they might say all they want that scores doesn't matter, but come on we all know they want to win. And actually this will just motivate them even more.
How did the crowd react to their performance by the way?
And pani try to enjoy the rest of your trip! And I'm praying Scott doesn't decide to give any side interviews this year lol.
Btw, I don't like the changes the made to the diagonal sequence. If they are still only getting level 3, what's the point of changing it??
Didn't they get level 2 previously?
When V/M win, other camp cries Skate Canada politicking hard. When D/W win, this camp cries USFSA politicking hard.
Politicking is expected, except this camp can give solid reasons on why V/W wins when they do(unison, edge work, etc) and other camp can only say they skated well and skated fast. I still have not read a convincing argument anywhere on why D/W won every PCS marks.
Italian link to V/M's FD
You haven't read a convincing argument because there isn't one. It's a load of crap.
You know what I'm not even upset (anymore). I think them losing is a blessing in disguise, I expect great things the second half of the season!
I think Rafter means that the goal was to get full levels and the new sequence didn't help them there. I miss the old one, it had more attitude, but I like the ending here too.
Now, I tend not to mention D-W much, but here's something I find puzzling: find me a step they haven't done before. Even last year, Funny Face for all the bad rep it got, still offered something new skating wise. Let's go back to this year: new steps, intricate choreography, new lifts all skated clean vs. a free dance that's basically been performed before. So the thing here is that yes, D-W are very smart and very good at selling steps they can do over and over again and, hey, they do it well. That's not the judges' fault, that's all on the system. If you compare both frees element by element, I can see D-W taking the spin and I am perfectly okay with that. But when you compare the step sequences, the thing here isn't that one is better than the other (which is the truth), the thing is that one team is basically doing the same steps and being rewarded for it because they skate them really well, while the other is still struggling to perform new steps as if they were as old as time, you see? That's not on the judges. We might think this is unfair, that politics are involved, whatever, but it's simple logic: a team skated cleaner than the other. Now, what I do find illogical is the PCS, especially the choreo marks because you would think originality means something there. But I trust my team and I think both programs have more room to grow than those by D-W.
I learned my lesson and I'm not panicking until after Worlds. They skated beautifully IMO but I agree as I said after COR (then kinda backtracked) but the "kick" thingy has to go, it's not something I'd miss and it hasn't really been performed smoothly yet at least it always looks 'flawed' to me. The ending I will be devastated if they change it but they gotta do what they gotta do. Again I like and respect D&W but there's just no way in my mind the FD should even be close V&M were on today, and their FD is the one that will be remembered, D&W's to me is just another FD. Samson and Delilah was their best and this just seems like a rerun.
The Italian commentators liked it very much again. I am little bit busy with yet more work, but I can translate it tomorrow
Guys look at the intensity: http://photos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s720x720/197928_4594903882354_1715079663_n.jpg
Wow. Just wow.
I mean you can only when you look at that and realize they didn't get the highest interpretation marks.
I know some people like to make little digs that Scott gets annoyed with his scores but it has to be frustrating to know you put that much intensity into your work and it isn't noticed by the nine people who control your fate.
That's just awesome. Maybe we should send this pic to the judges and write on the back 'What the heck more do you want?'
Just watched the SD. I like the old ending better why'd they change it? Please don't tell me that was one of the problems the judges had... I'll throw a massive in just in case.