Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Dec 8, 2012.
You haven't read a convincing argument because there isn't one. It's a load of crap.
You know what I'm not even upset (anymore). I think them losing is a blessing in disguise, I expect great things the second half of the season!
I think Rafter means that the goal was to get full levels and the new sequence didn't help them there. I miss the old one, it had more attitude, but I like the ending here too.
Now, I tend not to mention D-W much, but here's something I find puzzling: find me a step they haven't done before. Even last year, Funny Face for all the bad rep it got, still offered something new skating wise. Let's go back to this year: new steps, intricate choreography, new lifts all skated clean vs. a free dance that's basically been performed before. So the thing here is that yes, D-W are very smart and very good at selling steps they can do over and over again and, hey, they do it well. That's not the judges' fault, that's all on the system. If you compare both frees element by element, I can see D-W taking the spin and I am perfectly okay with that. But when you compare the step sequences, the thing here isn't that one is better than the other (which is the truth), the thing is that one team is basically doing the same steps and being rewarded for it because they skate them really well, while the other is still struggling to perform new steps as if they were as old as time, you see? That's not on the judges. We might think this is unfair, that politics are involved, whatever, but it's simple logic: a team skated cleaner than the other. Now, what I do find illogical is the PCS, especially the choreo marks because you would think originality means something there. But I trust my team and I think both programs have more room to grow than those by D-W.
I learned my lesson and I'm not panicking until after Worlds. They skated beautifully IMO but I agree as I said after COR (then kinda backtracked) but the "kick" thingy has to go, it's not something I'd miss and it hasn't really been performed smoothly yet at least it always looks 'flawed' to me. The ending I will be devastated if they change it but they gotta do what they gotta do. Again I like and respect D&W but there's just no way in my mind the FD should even be close V&M were on today, and their FD is the one that will be remembered, D&W's to me is just another FD. Samson and Delilah was their best and this just seems like a rerun.
The Italian commentators liked it very much again. I am little bit busy with yet more work, but I can translate it tomorrow
Guys look at the intensity: http://photos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s720x720/197928_4594903882354_1715079663_n.jpg
Wow. Just wow.
I mean you can only when you look at that and realize they didn't get the highest interpretation marks.
I know some people like to make little digs that Scott gets annoyed with his scores but it has to be frustrating to know you put that much intensity into your work and it isn't noticed by the nine people who control your fate.
That's just awesome. Maybe we should send this pic to the judges and write on the back 'What the heck more do you want?'
Just watched the SD. I like the old ending better why'd they change it? Please don't tell me that was one of the problems the judges had... I'll throw a massive in just in case.
Agree with those who say the last lift needs to go. I also wish there was a way they could speed up the spin....it's looking a little slow.
I'm looking forward to hearing Tracy and Kurt's comments later today.
well apparently in some quarters, all that sexuality in v/m's carmen aint artistic or innovative
Well it's a heck of a lot more artistic and innovative than Davis and White's "been there, done that" Notre Dame de Paris.
Physics isn't it. Stroking her face etc..while in the camel spin position slows down the rotation versus staying in a tight fixed position. I'd like to see them keep working on that for the time being to see if practice makes perfect because I just love the concept of the spin and her position was she comes out of it where she is slouched over with her arms hanging as if she's exhausted from their lovemaking in the spin.
Pity for them. If one can't see what a great job V&M and their choreographer did bringing a fresh angle to one of the most overused pieces of music in figure skating than I don't really think much of their opinion as they apparently lack the depth needed to appreciate art
Interesting (or I could use another word) that the detractors focus on the sexuality as opposed to the modern dance movements...perhaps it's because they can't say that the modern dance movements are not artistic without coming off as moronic (sorry, I really do try to be respectful, but sometimes it's really hard to have a discussion with ***** people).
I agree. It's also physics that makes the choreo lift difficult to get high GOEs on (and it is pretty apparent that the judges don't take into account the physics of the elements in their GOE scoring). Perhaps the problem is that most judges are not former elite figure skaters. I think this is why so many coaches and former skaters appreciate the qualities that V/M bring more than judges.
I prefer 6.0 in the sense that judges were basically given the freedom to consider one lift more difficult than another and mark accordingly, instead of it all being called based on levels. A ridiculously difficult lift where the girl does a backflip then sits on the guys face could be considered more difficult and weighted more heavily in the technical mark than a simple rotational lift with the girl in a split, but under CoP, both can be grouped as “level 4” and considered equal.
This is why I hate CoP ice dance. The way to win is to find the easiest possible level 4 elements and then skate with good speed and flow to get high PCS. Once you find a level 4 lift, you can just repeat it maybe with slight variations every year. Ditto for the level 4 footwork and twizzles. Transitions are actually a negative, because they impede your flow and a difficult entry could cause you to make a mistake on the elements.
Under 6.0, the complexity of the choreography was supposed to be considered as part of the technical mark in addition to skating skills and speed. That may have given polish, interpretation, creativity, and unison more value in the artistic scores than they have in the program components scores.
Granted, this is in the "ideal judging" realm of 6.0, which rarely was the case, and the politics were just as bad.
[If only it were this way for singles skaters – lack of transitions being exalted – that way my boy Plush would’ve won Vancouver! ]
Love your post - especially the Plush part, LOL.
I agree, that "kick" thingy has to go. This was the first time it looked a little smoother and I thought it still looked as if there's a mistake, or an interruption at that point. I'd like to see something that flows better right there.
I love the ending lift and I hope they keep that. Unlike that "kick" thingy, it does fit perfectly. It just sometimes look like it needs more practice to make it effortless.
CBC link to T/S's FD (no commentary)
I don't like the kick either. I would change that and the choreo lift.
Question about the choreo lift:
-Does it have to be the last lift in the program?
-Does it have a time limit?
If not, then I would try to put it in one of the more lyrical sections (which is hard because I don't want to change anything about them!). The lift is really crammed in at the end. There isn't enough setup time. If they had time to breathe during that lift, then Tessa could really stretch out and hold it and it would be glorious. As it is, by the time she's in position, the music is over, lol. It's very ambitious but it's too much (for anyone - P&B have a similar lift in their FD and Nathalie does no better).
I'm assuming though that it has to be the last lift so the caller knows not to assign a level. That's a shame. They should probably replace it with something else, and use the lift in exhibitions to better effect.
And I am NOT saying any of this as a way to improve their scores.... it's solely about how I believe it doesn't work choreographically.
This is from ISU communication
http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU 1721 ID Technical requirements 2012-13.pdf
in glossary section:
Dance Lift of up to 10 (ten) seconds performed after all the other required Dance Lifts. The Choreographic Dance Lift will be awarded a fixed Base Value and evaluated by the Judges in Grade of Execution only.
Darn, I figured. Thank you for looking it up!
Seriously though it's pissing me off! Do we have to break down the program second by second so they finally see the art in this. BTW I'm sorry (not really), but all the idiotic people on twitter that keep making stupid comments that it's porn and #publiccunnilingus are pissing me off too, how old are these people? They sound so immature.
Ok done venting.
Oh and I agree with everybody that that kick Tessa does has to go.
I think T-S show the best Carmen this season. More speed and power, then in Moscow. Last lift was fast. Choreo lift wasnt smooth. DW wasn't so good, like in Japan. I this last SS before was better.
I honestly wouldn't even let people that hold that sort of opinion bother you as they are likely the same people who want to wrap a towel around David.
well with d/w winning both programs, it seems to me that even the judges agree with those who dont see carmen as artistic/creative/innovative, and that it's just all sexuality and no substance with the way the judges are scoring the PCS
See onward and upward. They keep improving with each outing, just think what they can do with the three months they have til worlds considering what they already accomplished in the three weeks they had between Moscow and Sochi.
Exactly. I see Carmen improving more, simply because it's the more versatile program. I think we all need to take a deep breath and see the positives.
Or that they just don't care about those things and therefore and are not taking them into consideration period. Either thought is depressing!
I think the same was said last year at this time too.
I mean at the end of the day .. who are the olympic and 2 time world champions? Whether you personally don't like the program the judges obviously do too otherwise they wouldn't be scored like that. It's obvious there is just room for improvement which V&M have already said.
But what's wrong or bad about sexuality? That's why the twitter comments were bothering me; they make it sound like they're doing something disgusting or unethical.
Thanks. How was the reaction of the audience live?
I was also disappointed in these results.But just remember the Olympic season,when D/W won also the GPF and with better PCS.But at the Olympics V/M brought Mahler on a level that was unreachable for D/W.V/M have that certain gift to create magic,something D/W just can't do (IMO). It happened at the Olympics and I thnk it`s going to happen at Worlds again.
i do hope v/m win the sochi olympic games, if not for themselves this time around, but at least to snuff out the naysayers saying they won the 2010 OG just because it was in their home country. do you guys think they will get that kind of criticism if they win the worlds this year in canada?
Like I see, VM lost in choreo and transitions. This couldn't be IMHo. Even if SW will FD
In Moscow audience was better. VM had more support in Sochi then DW. Hope someone will made translation of Zueva interview with Vaitsehovskay
What did she say in the interview?
She said VM were havy. She have idea to give her teams each others FDs in next season
Can you post a link?
Separate names with a comma.