Virtue & Moir # 23 - Dance Me To The End Of Love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    That choreographed lift, V/M always manage to get a negative GOE somewhere in there and lost almost 0.5 points on TES! That's like half of the difference in TES between them and D/W, just seems so not worth it losing a huge chunk on a meager choreograph lift. I guess they need to change that.

    PCS is just :lol: as always.
  2. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    Maybe they work on showing that more for PCS next time ;)
  3. Bue

    Bue New Member

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    I get why they want to keep the lift. Done right it's a stunning and memorable ending. But it just isn't working for them and maybe it's time to acknowledge that? Also, I 've decided that I hate that move where Scott pulls Tessa up and she does that weird leg kick thing on the ice that never works properly. I'm not even sure she did it correctly today? The whole move is sloppy and it makes me nervous. TBH I'm a bit baffled by the reluctance to address these issues.
  4. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

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    they're very competitive, but then i think this year they also want to focus on the artistry of their programs, hence the reluctance. maybe the next olympic season, to make sure they win, they will focus more on the technical aspects of their programs and will change anything that doesnt get level 4 immediately
  5. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I like the program too much. That lift at the end is important to the story. It's not stubbornness, it's commitment to the artistic integrity of the program. They seem happy with the score, too. Look, we all want them to win, but I want them to skate the hell out of that program more. It will happen, hopefully at Worlds.
  6. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    They changed those gorgeous step sequences and they still got level 3 and 1-2 GOE. Such a shame...

    As much as I absolutely adore the choreo lift, because it's so in the spirit of the story, it may need to go...:( Isn't it totally embarassing that the best FD in years has to be watered down and made less interesting in order to gain a few points in the battle vs. one of least interesting FDs ever?

    Also, as long as we're on the subject, something to ponder... Choreography scores: 9,75 D/W, 9,61 V/M. NO COMMENT.
  7. Bue

    Bue New Member

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    I certainly understand this, but at the end of the day it is supposed to be a sport. You can't always afford to have 'artistic integrity' AND win. But you're right, they did look happy with the skate, and they always eventually pull it out of the bag.
  8. Lissa

    Lissa New Member

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    Those marks & D&W beating Carmen with that mediocre FD is not even worth commenting on, all I will say is this...........:duh::rolleyes::huh::lol:

    This is the GPF so no biggie, not like it matters if you win this anyway, seems the judges like to give D&W a victory over V&M once a season so this is it, come Worlds IN CANADA, V&M will win, it will look like the biggest joke ever if they skate Carmen brilliantly which they will & the judges give it silver again, there will also be a huge WTF from the skating world if this outcome is repeated at Worlds imo.
  9. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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    Oh well, not surprised about the scoring.
    Is there a link up yet?
  10. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    So you say ice dance result already fixed for Worlds 2013. ISU will not like to hear that. They should make rule that who wins most World and Olympic title get all gold titles after that. If it is in rule, it is all good ;) this way there is no question.
  11. Lissa

    Lissa New Member

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    Looking at the results though, D&W only improved 2 points from their last comp...108 to 110.
    V&M actually improved by over 4 points...104 to 108.
  12. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

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    kinda like with indie musicians. stick with your art and go hungry, or switch out your music more commercially and go sellout. it's always hard to balance artistry and winning over critics/judges/audiences.
  13. Lissa

    Lissa New Member

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    No bascially what I am saying is there is NO way that program by D&W is better than Carmen. End of story, Carmen is so far ahead of that ND program it's laughable but they continue to get WAY over scored for some mysterious reason, I think it's time V&M & their team checked to see what is going on cause I have a feeling the American Skating Federation is making a huge push for F&W this season, something fishy is going on....I have watched skating long enough to see this...
  14. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I don't think any of that is helpful or accurate.

    I think Carmen is a far superior and much more challenging FD than Notre Dame BUT D&W typically skate their programs near their potential at the start of the season while other teams take longer as they have the challenge of ironing out kinks and learning new elements. So while it's disappointing to see some of those scores in PCS (choreography and interpretation being the main sticking points for me) I don't think it's indicative of what we will see after the New Year.

    I'm reluctant to say panic now and change things BUT I do think it's time to revisit that final choreographic lift because while incredibly difficult and impressive I think it's not working for them and affecting the final impression the program gives the judges. If you look at the GOE awarded V&M actually get on average more points for their lifts than D&W do, that lift that has some clutching their pearls scored more GOE for them then the recycled DF + straightline. What the judges don't seem to like is the choreographic lift at all. V&M get more GOE than any other team at GPF for their lifts EXCEPT they get the second lowest GOE of the field for the choreographic lift which gives a big point advantage to D&W. I think having that lift as the last impression, a lift the judges don't seem to like, is affecting the overall impression. V&M have the best lifts in the field and I have no doubt they can come up with something else to fit their artistic vision but to make for a more dynamic ending. And that more dynamic ending should be reflected in the PCS. I'm not talking about the final pose, that should stay, just find another way to do that choreographic lift.
  15. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    so in other ways you are saying this is still fixed. no problem end of story. This way V-M can win if they become spectator at home town because their Carmen is so hot:D Scott can be with friends and family in stadium and watch all other skaters loose.
    who is this new team americans pushing for i never hear of them this is very strange. americian federation not have money to do anything. putin can help because he love ice dance
  16. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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  17. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Yes, finally they get rewarded for that lift! Well, except one judge from a different planet who gave them GOE +1.:rolleyes:

    My heart bleeds for the choreographic lift, but I agree with you.
  18. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I just saw the scores. :(

    I know it's not a popular opinion by a long shot, but I have to say I'm with you Lissa when it comes to what you're thinking on this. I've watched this sport a long time as well and have the same feelings on the scoring right now. I think what we're seeing is all political, decided long ago, and has little to nothing to do with the actual skating.
  19. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I hated to see the diagonal step sequence watered down, that got them a level 3 and still low GOE. They are compromising already and I admit that I don't like it. I understand your concern with the choreo lift, but they HAVE performed it well in practice and that's not where they are losing most of their points. It's baffling really. The twizzles, for example, those are amazing. Why isn't the rotational lift getting higher GOE? So, yeah, the judges do not like as much as we do. By the way, how amazing was that Russian audience? Truly great how they reacted after each element, especially the twizzles and the lifts. Another thing, (sorry for my very scattered thoughts) that kick Tessa does was well performed today, I think someone asked. It was clean and precise. I like it. I wish they didn't made any more changes, I wish they got some of those steps back, but like you guys said: this is a sport and well, champions adjust. I just want them to skate this program to their its full potential, win or lose, I think that's all I care about: that this program is remembered as one of the best ever.

    As for politics being involved, I am not too sure? Last year was the same, if not worse. A question, though, to those of you who are more familiar with the new system (V-M are the only team I followed after COP), do judges in the Grand Prix series get to judge 4CC and Worlds? Do they need extra qualifications?
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  20. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I like you, but you are recycling jokes now. I don't like that. A real troll strives for more and always reinvents himself. I know you can do it. Also, too much of a good thing gets boring real fast. Trolls know when to make an appearance too. :)
  21. Judy

    Judy New Member

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    I don't suppose there are any youtube videos of v/m's fd yet?
  22. iNap

    iNap New Member

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  23. Judy

    Judy New Member

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    Big improvement. What is it with the Russians showing it from above grrrr? I think they have to tweak that ending and I agree with whoever mentioned the leg kicking part .. can hardly wait until Canadians now. I'll be at worlds too so I'm really excited about that :)
  24. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much my concern as it is my pointing out the obvious. V&M and D&W have the same base value, the difference is in the GOE awarded and 67% of that difference is down to the choreographic lift. There is a 0.86 difference between their TES scores, 0.58 of that amount is down to the choreographic lift. Even judges who showered V&M with 2s and 3s in GOE for all their other elements gave 1, 0, -1 for that lift. They don't like it and I think it's because it doesn't move well or at least that is the appearance after the really dynamic lift that precedes it so it kind of ends on a whimper. I don't think it's selling out or losing your artistic integrity to realize that your vision might need to be adjusted. Sometimes you buy a beautiful piece of furniture knowing exactly where you are going to place it but when you bring it home you are disappointed to see it blocks the light. So you are disappointed but you really love the piece itself so you move it and discover it's not quite what you imagined but you still love it and it brings you great joy. Just move that lift and let the light of the program shine through to the end.

    Btw..I´m deliberately ignoring the PCS and will wait to see what that is like later in the season before freaking out.
  25. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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    T/S's FD

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQeJ8frvv4

    Now that I've seen it, I actually like the new circular step sequence. However, I prefer the old straight line step sequence (so unfortunate that COP is flawed in the way it assigns levels since I think the original straight line step sequence is more difficult).

    And I agree with others, that choreo lift is too difficult to get good GOEs on and they should revisit that.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  26. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    This is why I'm not panicking so much at this stage of the season. Every time they take it out there it's smoother and gets more and more beautiful to watch. I miss Tessa doing her mad twizzle in the middle of their diagonal but I do like the ending of it.
  27. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    Well, I'll be unpopular along with the two of you and take my lumps along with it.

    I'm sorry, even with the lift that should probably be changed I thought even with all the tweaks that are done each year to the marking system the basics remain. CoP is a marking system in which each team starts with a base score but can rack up points by doing other things correctly. Each segment provides that opportunity. Even if the judges are having issues with the lift and the execution of it, V&M are doing so many other things at such a high standard that continously having D&W outpoint them (higher choreography scores, really?) it's ridiculous. Especially this season.

    It's true that V&M build as the season progresses but what they skated this weekend was more than enough to give them a victory at least in the FD.

    Even many big names and icons in the icedance world have commented on V&M's programs (Carmen in particular) and how their skating is the best in the field. It's not just us whiny V&M. fans. I mean not even coming closer in the FD?
  28. skatingfan12

    skatingfan12 New Member

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    I say this gently because I understand that you prefer Carmen over Notre Dame, but I have to roll my eyes at this :rolleyes: and as I see this, this almost an insult to D/W's integrity. What you are saying is that V/M should automatically win because they have a better program without actually taking into account the actual skating? Truth this, D&W's skated the heck out of that program, especially Charlie. You're also insinuating Tessa and Scott SHOULD benefit from decisions prior to any teams have skated :lol:

    Also, are you really saying that D&W win because the US Figure Skating is politicking? Like the USFS really has the money to do that....
    Cyn and (deleted member) like this.
  29. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Allow me to :rolleyes: back at you. Everybody is politicking. The US fed is certainly no exception.

    And yes, we DO take into account the actual skating when we say that Carmen should win.
    aka_gerbil and (deleted member) like this.
  30. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    It's a piss off that Davis and White won today. Especially with program components. If it doesn't change by 4cc I'll explode.
    clarie and (deleted member) like this.
  31. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I wanted to postiive rep you for this, but I can't right now. I completely agree with you.

    Abso-freaking-lutely. All feds politik and the USFS is no exception. And, yes, we also take into account the actual skating when we say Carmen should win.
  32. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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    I agree that everybody is politicking.
    My concern is with the COP and the judge's interpretation of COP.
    The easiest one to tackle is the choreo. In my mind, the choreo mark should be independent of performance. In essence, the choreo mark should have already been assigned even before the skaters skate (and we know the judges already know the choreo for all the top teams). However, it seems to me the choreo mark always correlates with performance to some extent. Unless the judges are saying that T/S's choreo is not as interesting, complex, or novel as M/C's. To that, I have no words.
  33. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    I posted this elsewhere but it's depressing (and scandalous) that Virtue and Moir lost PCS to that hideous program of Davis and White's.

    I don't know what to think about this season. I don't know if the marking of Davis and White is to make up for last season's worlds results (where a lot of people thought Davis and White should have won with DF), is it because the judges are planning on giving Virtue and Moir the world title so they are throwing D/W the "GPF bone" (like last season), or are they setting D/W up to win worlds (remember no Canadian judge on the panel in London) and so giving them these kind of marks and point difference over Virtue and Moir means it won't be a surprise or scandal if V/M lose to D/W by the time Worlds in V/Ms hometown rolls around.

    What I'd like to know is what Marina Z is doing and saying behind the scenes. :shuffle::sekret:
  34. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    One of my big fears after the manufactured controversy over V/M's win at Worlds last season was that they would pay for it politically this year. I'm starting to think I was right on target with that fear. At this point, due solely to poltiics, I'll be shocked if they win again internationally this season.
  35. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    Guys, I don't think we have to panic yet? Yes, it bothers me too. Yes, what they are doing is not being appreciated, but there's time. Remember all this negativity affected their performance last year. Let's try to focus on the positives: both programs grew. The free dance even gained more than 5 points, that's good. It is a program that can keep growing. You know who should feel sad? C-L. I do not get the Grand Prix judges, which is why I ask again: are these judges allowed to be on international-level panels such as the 4CC, Worlds and the Olympics?
  36. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    You guys I'm actually happy they scored at least 108 I thought they might get 105 cuz the judges refuse to see this incredible, artistic program for what it is. It's so frustrating! I hope that Tessa and Scott don't start making all these changes to the programs like they did last year. Lets be honest they might say all they want that scores doesn't matter, but come on we all know they want to win. And actually this will just motivate them even more.

    How did the crowd react to their performance by the way?

    And pani try to enjoy the rest of your trip! And I'm praying Scott doesn't decide to give any side interviews this year lol.
  37. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Btw, I don't like the changes the made to the diagonal sequence. If they are still only getting level 3, what's the point of changing it??
  38. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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    Didn't they get level 2 previously?
  39. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    When V/M win, other camp cries Skate Canada politicking hard. When D/W win, this camp cries USFSA politicking hard.

    Politicking is expected, except this camp can give solid reasons on why V/W wins when they do(unison, edge work, etc) and other camp can only say they skated well and skated fast. I still have not read a convincing argument anywhere on why D/W won every PCS marks.
  40. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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