Virtue and Moir, número 31: The Best Is Yet To Come

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Golightly, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    Golightly, thank you for quoting bournekraatzfan's post in the new thread. She, you and everybody else are spot on about how the difficulty within technical elements and movements V&M do keep going unrecognized. And these are things that make what Scott and Tessa do so difficult whether that difficulty is more obvious as in the Carmen program or more subtle as it is in the new FD. These are the things that place them above the rest of the field. Or at least these are things that by the rulebooks should be gaining them points.

    It's seems the crowds and judges have been condition to think difficult are only those blatant things that smack you in the face. The lifts with the changes in position (although V&M excel at those as well) and the spins but the rest; the things that you might have to look a little close to appreciate aren't appreciated.

    The ISU seems to be enouraging the skaters from all the skating disciplines to do little more than string together the elements; connect the dots. Many of the difficult connecting moves, skating with deep edges, being able to hold those deep edges throughout constant changes of foot placement and upperbody postition don't seem to mean much. It's why I was so happy and continue to applaud Jeff Buttle winning Worlds a few years back. IMO the judges got it right; not just the big tricks but all the inbetween movements as well. It reminds me of how once upon a time Dick Button, as he watched Lucinda Ruh spin (fast, centered and maintaining that speed through changes of position - different creative postitions) that things like her spinning wasn't counted enough.

    On a positive note, I've observed that with each viewing of the new piece, we notice the things that everyone has put into words more and more. I find with V&M's programs every time I see them something jumps out at me that impresses me with the difficulty inherent in those moves the more I watch. With Tessa and Scott being careful to pace themselves over the season, hopefully (I think) the judges will start picking up on all those things as well.
  2. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  3. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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  4. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    When I met them at the M&G @csoi in Van this year she looked to be about 5 inches shorter than Scott
  5. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    Carmen, it seems to me the sport cares about these things and rewards it when Patrick Chan does it, but not when ice dancers do it. And that's insane.
  6. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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  7. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  8. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I would like to address the "toe hopping" fallacy.

    - Have you ever tried to stand on your toe picks? It's harder than standing on the center of the blade.
    - Have you ever tripped over a toe pick? It is a hard part of the blade to control if something goes wrong. You're not going to try being on the toe unless you have complete mastery.
    - The USFSA Junior & Senior MIF tests (the highest tests) include toe turns in the patterns, which means they're so hard that only the highest level skaters are testing them. The USFSA has toe turns in the highest level tests because they believe that toe turns should be included in the mastery of MIF.
    - The USFSA rule book includes a list of allowed ice dance maneuvers. Since these maneuvers are listed in the rule book, they are clearly meant to be utilized in competition.
    "Section DG 5.00 - Steps: DG 5.20 - Toe Step: A step where the skater steps from one toe to the other without jumping."
    "Section DG 7.00 - Spins, Lifts, Jumps and Movements: DG 7.03 - Jumps and Dance Jumps: C. Hops: A small jump without revolution."

    Maybe the judges think "toe hopping" is hard, and that's why they are rewarding D/W. No conspiracy necessary.
  9. Happy123

    Happy123 New Member

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    V/M don't stand on the center of the blade though. They skate with deep edges + complex closed holds. That to me is more difficult than open, two-footed skating + skips.
  10. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  11. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    It looks like they are "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet" in that gif, so toe hopping must not really be as big of a deficiency of skating ability as you are making it seem.
  12. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    A gif of the opening seconds of V/M's 2011 FD is not representative of the whole program, in which they used their skate blades to get from place to place since the sport is skating, not toe picking.

    There are plenty of skaters and teams who have utilized pick work in choreographic highlights. There is a difference in using pick work in that fashion and using it to cover large stretches of ice instead of using the blade edge.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  13. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that you are the one who is making something seem the way it is not now, although I choose to believe that it's unintentional - probably you don't remember (or haven't seen :confused:) Tessa and Scott's Latin FD very well. If you would remember then you'd know that what that gif shows was a little moment in their program, not "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet".


    Edit: I see that aka_gerbil already responded to that quite appropriately.
  14. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    No one is talking about bits of choreography like V&M do in that latin dance, that D&W did in their SD just before the polka pattern last season or that is done in the Finnstep this year.

    We are talking about using your toepicks to propel themselves forward, to gain speed instead of their edges. That sort of thing that made your coach yell at you in stroking class "I don't want to hear those toepicks"!
  15. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    Of course you'd confuse actual dancing with hopping. Nothing to do there :) I would advice you to look at the hips. See, they are on their toe in order to help their hips sway and produce a latin ballroom movement. See? There is a purpose rooted in dancing. However, during step sequences and transitions, in ice dancing, what is the a purpose to toe picking other than jumping from A to B? Where's the action from hip to toe? Where's the edge hold? So, yeah, toe picking is, undoubtedly, a technique, but it should never be aimless. The fact that ice dancers, and mind you, not just Davis and White, but many others, use it to transition? If you see nothing wrong with that, there's nothing I can do. So, thank you very much for trying so valiantly to defend it instead of simply denying that they do do that, as many others simply do :)
  16. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    That "hopping and skipping" is just the opening dance sequence, not the whole "program in two feet." It is also a direct translation on ice of real Latin ballroom dance movements. "Skipping and hopping" as part of choreography to translate off ice movements on ice (like in this Latin bit and Like in D/W SD last year) is much different from skipping around the rink to get from point A to point B.

    ETA: Okay. I guess others explained it much better.
  17. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Theres no skipping in that GIF....
  18. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Methinks someone has wandered into the wrong topic.

    Please LG, go back to your regular reading topics. We really don't need you to come in here and tell us what the USA considers to be a difficult MIF.
  19. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    What skating skills/ MIF turns are you referring to as "toe turns" ? Are you saying that the actual turn pattern requires skaters to use their toe picks? No one said that using toe picks was illegal, just that it doesn't take more skill to master one's toe picks. The mastery of the running edges is a much more difficult and desirable skill in figure skating. Sorry but this seems like such an obvious statement. it feels kind of silly to write it.
  20. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    To be completely fair, Tessa and Scott also do some bits of running and really small hops in their FD - particularly in the second half and the second step sequence. Of course, in their case it's also to accentuate the music. But the same could be said at least about some cases of running and hopping in Meryl and Charlie's programs. That said, I do realize that Tessa and Scott do that less anyway. I also know that this is not exactly about toe pick technique, or whatever it is called, I am just referring to the ongoing on and off discussion about running and hopping in Meryl and Charlie's programs.
  21. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    To be completely fair we already covered that...
  22. iNap

    iNap New Member

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    but very ok to repeat every five six post some people has memory so weak can not even remember which team they watch or what tread this is ;)
  23. Zazy

    Zazy Member

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    Yes, and it's the first time they've ever had that kind of stuff in a program. I find it disappointing, but if their rivals fill all of their programs with it and get huge skating skills scores, what are they supposed to do? At least they don't do it nearly as much as D/W.

    The ISU has sent out the message that, outside of step sequences, blade work isn't important and is an unnecessary risk. I still don't understand in what universe V/M don't have the best skating skills, but the rules seem to have changed and they need to adapt, skate a little more like D/W. I'm not sure that's a good thing.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  24. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    To be completely fair, Marina did say she was going to give them eachother's programs. She really wasn't lying.

    I find it dissapointing too :( Maybe this time they'd get monster scores like DW :) (I know its not going to happen I am being an opitimist)
  25. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    Hmmm, I don't think Marina totally gave D&W and V&M each others programs. I've seen V&M's new FD several times over and have seen the SLC performance of D&W and while V&M have appropriately (IMO) adjusted their programs to what the ISU seems to want and rewards IMO, D&W are still doing the style of skating they have become known for this quad.

    I'd also add that IMO while V&M have tried to create a FD that is in more in line with what the ISU has indicated they prefer, Tessa and Scott's technical skills and all the things that we've discussed that makes their basic skating so incredible are still there. Those things just aren't as in your face as in the Carmen FD when it was more obviously loaded beginning to end. The new FD has comparable difficulty but the presentation is softer and more sublte. If that makes sense.
  26. Mokesh

    Mokesh New Member

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    I get the distinct feeling that this part of the program simply isn't done yet, that they're still filling in the gaps. Examples:

    1. It looked like they entered the first rotational lift too early (not on the music), because the choreography leading up to the lift isn't all there yet. If this is the lift that was too long (where they got the deduction), it would make even more sense- because they extended the lift in order to end with the music.
    2. Going into the second step sequence, there are a few seconds where the music is very fast and busy, and they're more or less gliding along, not dancing to the music. I'm pretty sure there's choreography to come there, as well.
    3. In the second step sequence, there's a part where they finish a turn and Tessa sort of runs a little to get into the next hold- I think one of them probably made a mistake there, it doesn't look intentional.
  27. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes it seems to me that VM are the novice skaters. Always have something wrong with them - costumes, programs, music, choreography, and the elements. And at the other ice dancers- masterpieces, perfect skating? costumes, music/
    I need to stay away from an Internet. Reminiscent of the 2009-2010 season ;)
  28. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    And that season ended with two wins!
  29. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes. But i dont think about medals, just about programs. I think VM never got positive reaction on there programs. :D
    As for medals. We have team competition. And if Patrick could skate clean and Osmond will not be last VM will have chance to get there medal at Team Event.
  30. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    It's kind of ironic that one of the "errors" we are discussing is that some of their choreography is similar to DW. The constant analysis and deconstruction of their programs can come across as constant criticism for sure.
  31. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I dont see nothing common in VM FD with DW programs at all.
    Meryl and Charlie did TS lifts in FD, VM did all new for them lifts. As for hopes. Sorry, but why you didnt see this hopes from Tessa in Carmen and from Scott in last season SD from Scott?
    I really cant remeber skaters, who have sich fans, like VM, who aalwayse unhappy with all there favorite skaters doing.
    Look at DW group of fans. They post long posts about how NDP were amazing even today, all time talking about DW must win in 2009 and 2012 (guys, Bowns were also in 2010 at WCh, when DW won FD and 2013 WCH). And what is going on in VM thread....
    Meryl-Charlie are using there best style and its great, because they could show it the best. But when TS show there light skating, musicality, softness, easy skating, great speed, there fans start talking about they are junior skaters. Bravo!
    OK. I really need to have a break. Better untill OG :D

    At least you will never see such bad programs, costumes, lelemnts soon. Wait until February. And you can cheer for the other athletes. This will be nice.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  32. Happy123

    Happy123 New Member

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    For what it's worth, I'm feeling optimistic and love both programs! :)
  33. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    Completely agree with Pani. I don't see them copying anyone, especially those who can't be named :) Then their fans use the criticism posted here to reinforce their own arguments. I just don't get a lot of the negativity here.
  34. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts New Member

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    Agreed! They always have to tweak and and build their programs because the programs are ambitious. All will be well devoted fans!
  35. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I think this one's been better received than both Mahler and Funny Face? Some people love this one, I mean fans. Not many flat out hate it. I can honestly say I loathed that horrible Funny Face music, although I loved the program by the GPF. I would watch it with the music off and admire all the crafty and artsy skating. Here, I actually like it the more I watch it. I think there are things that need work, but it's the start of the season. If there's a team that knows how to grow a program, it's this one. Just because we point out things that can (and will) be improved, doesn't mean we are bad fans. Some people believe everything is perfect from the first second of a program and that's the tune they'll sing all season long. I am realistic. I like the program, I could love it even, but I know they're working on perfecting it. I think that's great.

    Again, if your main concern is the gold medal, the PCS score should tell you that the program was well-received. If you wanted to see something more in your face, then there's nothing to do there.
  36. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    We are analysing Tessa and Scott's programs and sometimes criticizing parts of them because we are fans. I think otherwise we wouldn't be that interested.

    No one has talked about junior/novice skaters here except you.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  37. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    Oh pani, it's hard not to stress out for our favorites, isn't it? As far as the similarities go, I'm referring to the recent talk about "hopping" steps, of which there is a minimum of, but are done for choreographic effect as illustrated in the gif, not for Tessa to catch up to her partner.

    Regardless of the choreography, there is no comparison in the execution of the elements.
    Yes, I will cheer for other athletes, but there is only one team deserving of the gold. :kickass:
  38. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    I blame the ISU. VM have to be 110% perfect to win while their rivals only need to be 80%.
  39. puglover

    puglover Active Member

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    I have had issues with the results ever since the short dance of 2011. To me - comparing the two top teams, the feel, rhumba/samba rhythm, chemistry, heat, - I could go on and on - were miles apart. I feel Scott nailed that and Tessa was in a league of her own. I hate that Tessa and Scott's perceived weakness get so much attention that they become accepted as fact yet we read over and over how true ice dance devotees sing their praises and want to emulate them. I know the results matter to Tessa and Scott and so it is hard as a fan to dismiss them - but I am going to try so hard this year. They are simply the very best. Here' to a fantastic season!
  40. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I have read most (if not all) of the posts on this and the previous thread since the new FD was debuted, but I may have missed something.