Virtue and Moir #30 - Labour of Love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by MissJD, Sep 13, 2013.

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  1. AsianFSFan

    AsianFSFan New Member

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    Thanks for the YouTube link! Not ideal scoring...looked over the scoring sheet PDF. still scratching my head with one with 7pts for interpretation/timing. Perhaps, not ending on time? Plus bobbles? *shoulder shrug*

    However, I agree with Golightly's post. :) I feel it's better to have been judged with harder panel with lower scores equally to all teams in the beginning and continue to climb as the season go on, rather than start high (then hear all arguments it being inflated). I don't see them being shaky or nervous at all. Smoother in flow, good speed and more pep in pattern seq. :) Yes, there are obvious (though small mistakes). Would love to see that minor detail with hands (as per zilam98's earlier post) there though...I still stand by my own opinion, liking their new lift but not final pose. :slinkaway: I noticed they changed to do two face-to-face side heel kick? , instead of one outer then facing, after pattern seq. - I liked it when first saw the Quebec vid - makes it smoother in the end somehow. All in all, I really enjoyed their routine this second time. So looking forward to their FD! :cheer2:

    Ps. Thank you, Bournekraatzfan, for your kind wish :) Yes, I did...all stuffed up with my fav dim sum...and all the while thinking how V/M faired. Finally, caught up after (and reading all these posts) ;)
     
  2. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    I mean, really, what competition were 3 and 6 watching?! Lol that's just silly! 7?! Anyway...serious question here. When they announce judges as # whatever at the beginning of the comp do the judges appear as that number on the score sheet? (I'm thinking they don't but I'm not quite sure!)
     
  3. liv

    liv Well-Known Member

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    After watching it you can see that Scott makes a little error at the end of the finnstep, so maybe that is a contributing factor.

    I don't know if it's in evidence in the marking here and i"m not using this competition as an example, but I think that in some cases the judges have used the PCC scores to arrange things to their liking. A small adjustment here and there and the math adds up. They are just being more creative in doing it, so that worries me down the line. Call me pessimistic, but some of the marks just boggle my mind.
     
  4. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    No. It's not even the same judge all the way down the sheet.
     
  5. musketeer

    musketeer Member

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    They were definitely nervous today during the competition so it wasn't their best skate..The practice in the morning was flawless, they were enjoying skating so much and just oozed charisma! Frankly, everyone else looked weak after them. They just have the it-factor in spades. And I just can't comprehend how they always find moments to connect with each other while doing something incredibly difficult. At the end of one of their rotational lifts in the FD Scott is spinning Tessa around like crazy and still they manage to take eye contact and stare at each other. :swoon:

    Still have great expectations for tomorrow! I think they'll be more relaxed for sure.
     
  6. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I feel a lot better now though still upset. I just feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Tessa and Scott. Other teams can make mistakes and get the benefit of the doubt or whatever and when it come to them they get hammered; they have to be perfect all the time and already they were expected to skate in Finlandia like they've been skating the entire season. Just scared after last season the judges wouldn't score them fairly.

    Anyways I am excited that I'm going Nats!! Just last week I wasn't even sure it was going to happen then everything fell into place this week. So exciting, but I'm terrified of the cold that I'm going to face in Ottawa.

    Musketeer, marikat, and ilovenyc I hope you guys enjoy the rest of the competition.
     
  7. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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    Thanks! I've never read the protocols before last season, so I'm still learning! Btw I don't like that at all. I remember the "less federation pressure" argument but the glaring issue is a lack of accountability. Oh well, no use complaining! Bring on that free dance!
     
  8. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    No, never. They always, always, always randomize them. It's the anonymity that I find so grating in this sport.
     
  9. AsianFSFan

    AsianFSFan New Member

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    I really, really hate to think that "fixing" is in ... Since I really, really want to enjoy this season like I did with past seasons with V/M's programs (preOlympics 2010 up to 2011) without this speculation running in my head. I'd like to think that it's a one off and beginning of season scoring....Yes, yes scoring is still subjective to a degree. But I'd also like to think positively that these judges are/will be doing their jobs responsibly and ethically.
     
  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I really don't think these results are fixed. What would be the advantage to 'fixing' a competition where they still win. This gives them feedback and a chance to fix the low areas- meaning they'll come back better for future competitions. If the judges wanted to mess them up, it wouldn't make sense to score them low until a competition mattered.
     
  11. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    At this competition all teams got low levels for pattern dance.
    And judges see something, because they gave level 2 for.
    SS to CB
     
  12. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    But it does "help" to score them low even if they win as that brings their marks down to within reach of teams below. We actually saw this kind of politicking in the run up to the last Olympics. At that time remember Tessa and Scott were considered to be more of a threat to the Russians than were Meryl and Charlie and certain judges marked accordingly. It turns out their teams ended up being bested by both the young teams in the end so it didn't work, but it was amusing how easy it was to predict the judging at any given competition based on which countries had judges in the mix and who had a vested interest in having one team place over the other. I'm not including the US and Canadian judges in this as they cancelled each other out ;)
     
  13. Corianna

    Corianna Active Member

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    My understanding was that a judge who gives a score out of line with the other judges is required to give a detailed explanation to the head of the panel. The highs and lows are still thrown out anyway. I also recall that the reasons given for the anonymity were to limit bribes and favours as compliance with a bribe or favour could not be proved to the one who offered it, and to limit the personal abuse (and abuse of a nation) which used to be staggering.
     
  14. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    The abuse by some is still there, it's just sneakier... :watch:
     
  15. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    No one is talking about fixed scores. The panel was strict, that is all. I mean, hello? 7? 8.25s? But that doesn't mean there was fixing.
     
  16. Corianna

    Corianna Active Member

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    I'm sure, and oh yes, and solving one problem usually leads to another is all aspects of life. In skating for instance, a group led by Joubert and Plushy and many others, protested that the quads were not being rewarded enough, and fewer skaters were trying them for awhile. The current points - which reward rotations in the air even when the jump isn't landed cleanly, leads to all the bitter criticism of skaters who can fall and still win. But it also has led to almost everybody doing quads..
     
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I was responding based on this
    So clearly the idea of fixing scores is being discussed, although in the "that probably isn't what is happening" sense.
     
  18. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Guys, this wasn't there best skating, they have mistakes. So if we are talking about there marks, I think it's fair for them at this point. Look like judges like there SS.
    It's all if we are talking about fair.judging.
    And I could understand judges, who give higher marks to the team, who never have mistakes.
    This competition have positive things. They looked strong in practice. They.show.such a beautiful step sequence, they began it like one person. They had good first part of the pattern.
    They show great artistic skills, if you will look at photos. So a lot of work to do, but this was the first step. And yes, they show such a great musicality.

    Will see, what they will show in FD.
     
  19. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Is that true for this comp though? I know it's randomized for GP events and ISU championships, but I didn't think Sr Bs were like that too.
     
  20. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Reading the protocols is actually encouraging. I like to believe that they will clean it up come November. Lots of points left on the ice, which isn't uncommon for Virtue and Moir when they begin the season. Even with the mistakes, the skate was, in a way, more huge (huger? help? LOL) than the one last month.

    The judges liked the step sequence. I was laughing a bit at this because they were SO close I thought they were going to run into each other, but they have so much control that they can manage to produce something great out of tricky situations. A liiittle bit more distance next time should get them that level 4, because it truly was impeccable, until they ran out of space at the end.
     
  21. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that even in B's they randomize them, perhaps someone with more insight can help us out here?
     
  22. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Why is it D&W never get the so-called "strict" panel?
     
  23. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    That is the million dollar question, isn't it? The subjective side of this sport is both what makes it wonderful, and frustrating.
     
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Just.watched protocols from FT 2011. Without mistakes VM got... 68 in SD. So we.all know,.what.marks they got for.SD at.2012 WCh
     
  25. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I'm also really concerned about them. They seem to be fighting serious nerves nowadays. How can they overcome that?
     
  26. iNap

    iNap Active Member

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    Strict panel is V-M ubber and follow this team around every where ;)
     
  27. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    They're constantly challenging themselves with difficult, intricate choreography from their blades to their fingertips, I'm sure even more challenging than Carmen was, so it takes a while to build up their perfection. As the links above show, their errors early in the season are not totally uncharacteristic. I guess since the twizzle error at WCh last year, we tend to expect every little bobble to be devastating, but at this time of the season, it really is not.

    The difficult panels certainly an opportunity for growth, but it does seem to set a precedent and pecking order for the year. Pani, I don't recall their SD score at WCH, please tell me that you're saying that even though they start slow, their WCh score reflects improvement?
     
  28. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I was thinking about that too.
     
  29. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's the issue, Rafter, although I respect and understand where you're coming from. Ugh, I hate discussing D-W because I have a very strong opinion about what they do and what gets rewarded and that opinion usually gets me into trouble with their fans and I hate confrontations with them or any other people really. But, whatever, we're on the subject and I am not insulting anyone. So, I'm gonna post my take, which is mine and no one else's. I put up that sort of disclaimer there because certain fans tend to generalize what people say on this thread and then run all over the Internet saying we all think this or that, as if the V-M fans were just one person. Truth is there are many disagreements among us, we just happen to share our admiration for V-M. Everyone can post, even occasionally argue about something and no one gets tossed out for disagreeing with a fellow V-M fan. No one is bullied into leaving or passive-aggressively condescended to, we have many disagreements and we all accept them. Okay, so having said that, this is what I think: D-W skate simple. See the lack of turns? Variation of holds? Transitions in between elements? Lack of pace control? See all the time they spend on flats? See how OPEN they are? Now, I am not talking about flaws, these aren't flaws, okay? These are omissions. But they allow them to go from element to element with a huuuuge margin of error. That's who they are as skaters. It's a team that's very consistent and never puts a foot wrong because they avoid creating opportunities that might cause them to put a foot wrong. And that, whether we like it or not, is very smart.

    That's my take. I tried to be as frank as possible, again, it was not my intention to insult or offend anyone. I am not being snarky or sarcastic, what I wrote there is what I genuinely believe. Just my opinion and everyone here is free to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  30. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    Well, then in order to win, what is the answer? Skate more simply and make no errors or skate a more difficult program and risk errors? If a team has the skill to skate an intricate program, obviously if they skate perfectly, there is no controversy, however is it worth the risk?
    In other disciplines flawed skates are rewarded under the premise of superb skating skills, but somehow not so much in dance - ironic, isn't it?
     
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
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