Virtue and Moir 29 - Classical and elegant

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by pani, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    The tone of this letter is sickening. It's one thing for ignorant fans to blame the skaters for decisions which are made by the officials. But to put out that propaganda in an official ISU document? It should read repeated incorrect scoring of the interruptions by the officials.
    With all the politicking that goes on in figure skating, it's no wonder that fans are inclined to believe that there is something besides the search for fairness in figure skating judging behind this. I have a sinking feeling that this season is going to be just nasty.
  2. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    Oh, I think this is all about V/M. There was no outcry about the Shibs having to stop. There wasn't much of a fuss about the young French team stopping at Junior Worlds. It was V/M's stop that everyone got their knickers in a twist over. The contention being put forth by some is that V/M weren't properly penalized because their score was still what it was. That contention only works if you don't want to accept that V/M were well on their way to a monster score and were out-GOEing D/W before they had to stop. People want this reframed because they don't want to think about what V/M's score would have been without the stop--a score that would have been higher than D/W's. By saying that they didn't lose enough points, they're trying to make it so that the take-away is that V/M couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't have scored (and beating D/W) if they hadn't been injured, even though that's exactly what was about to happen if they hadn't have stopped. It's setting up the idea for the upcoming season that V/M aren't as good as D/W and shouldn't be marked as such. This is all about politics aimed at ensuring V/M don't win next season because it's at odds with an agenda to get the OGM for D/W. That's why this is happening. It's not about fixing a rule or anything like that.
  3. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    At CoR we have a lot off discussions about Shibs stop. But the main question was - why referee let them have stop more, them 2 minutes, why he let them re-start doing that lift, which they started to do before stop, why this lift was counted. But not about Alex did this to get better score.
    Plus the worst case was in 2006 Zhangs, who had stop more then 2 minutes and then won silver medal at OG.
  4. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Can someone post a link to this letter? I can't find it.
  5. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I'm also recall reading an article where someone was quoted as saying they believed the Shibs stopped because they entered their lift wrong, that on the reskate you can see the difference between the attempts. I want to say it was Maxim Stavisky but I can't dig up the article again so that is just a guess on my part. Not surprisingly it was ignored by most and it was *only* the German team who would have benefitted from a deduction to the Shibs. On the flip side a deduction to V&M would have not changed the results AT ALL but all hell broke loose. I'll leave it up to others to connect the dots...
  6. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  7. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I found P&C to have an egregious misuse of the rule. They had injuries before the FD, and then seemed to have planned to split the program into 2 parts to be able to manage to get through the whole thing, and finished 2nd overall, the same spot they were in before the FD, plus got a season's best score. Plus there was another jr team at Jr Worlds that used the rule.

    Perhaps that is what finally plucked Cinquanta's last nerve. I doubt he is a huge D&W fan; he probably wanted to advance the cause of C&L if anything.

    Plus I don't think Tessa & Scott abused the rule, in any case.

    But I thought a rule change was proposed, not finalized? If there is a new rule, does anyone know what the text of it is?
  8. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I agree that the case of Papadakis & Cizeron was egregious, but I absolutely do not fault them, and I think it was outrageous for the ISU letter to cite "obvious misuse by the skaters."

    IIRC, the article at the time stated that P&C did not intend to skate, but they decided to give it a try. The pain got to be too much, so they went over to the referee to withdraw, and she told them they were allowed to "rest" for three minutes and resume, so that's what they did. I'm sure this was absolutely not the intent of the rule, so either the rule was not written clearly or the referee misapplied it. I see no evidence that they, V&M, or the Shibs did anything but stop because they were in pain and simply followed the instructions of the referee. IMO, V&M and the Shibs should not have gotten to re-do their lifts (I would have allowed them to re-start as of when the music stopped, not when they stopped - V&M would have still won silver without the 10+ points from their lift, anyway), but that is not their fault, it's the fault of the referee or how the rule was written.

    The rule definitely needed clarification (alas, this new one looks even more confusing), but there was no need to say the skaters had misused the rule.

    It would have made more sense to say that the way the rule was applied last season, it leaves open the possibility of someone deliberately misusing it to gain an advantage.

    I believe you are right, the new rule is only a proposal.
  9. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Yes, I think that is fair, but P&C might not have even tried to skate if they had not had the rule in mind for what to do if they could not finish.

    Absolutely, I agree that all the skaters USED the rule; its language is not their fault, and no misapplication of the rule was done.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Perhaps, but I think we can all agree that this is only speculation, so it was unfair for the ISU to say "obvious misuse." Lots of other athletes have skated in debilitating pain without taking a break, like Stojko and Zhao. P&C may have simply been trying to hang on for ranking points, expecting to drop in the standings, never assuming they would get a break or still win silver anyway (and I do think they were overscored).
  11. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    Papadakis said after the incident that she had not known the rule could be used like that. She tried to skate because it was the climax of their season, and stopped because the pain in her ankle was proving too much, and was intending at that point to withdraw. They only decided to try to continue because the referee told them they were allowed to have the 3 minute break. They were not pre-planning to abuse the rule as you are implying.

    The problem lies here with the way the officials were interpreting the rules.
  12. apple123

    apple123 Banned Member

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    I have to say, I'm a bit scared about what's going to happen this season. It does seem there is a strong force aiming to put V/M down at every possible opportunity, and it works in the dark which leaves little chance to fight it. I really don't think V/M deserve any of those attacks, but who is going to help them?
  13. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    "Sorry, this page isn't available
    The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed."

    LOL
    Maybe we can send a complaint to the ISU I mean the letter did have an email attached to it. Since complaining seems to work :lol:.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  14. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Gabriela was cried, when she stop FD. Alex Shibutanie lying in K&C untill next team finikshed there FD.
    I told this, because i hope DW and there fans will never feel something like this. Never :)
  15. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Yes, I hope that no dance team will have any injuries in this Olympic season-I want to see every team skate their very, very best all season long! What a treat that would be.
  16. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Doris, but what you think and want i see on Golden Skate. ;) Why you feel you must post in this tread? Talk about us in SS and at GS :hat1:
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  17. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    I certainly think it's appropriate to complain to the ISU about the 'obvious misuse' statement. Anyone who follows through on this should ask them to either prove that statement or withdraw it - preferably with an apology.
  18. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    I certainly think it's appropriate to complain to the ISU about the 'obvious misuse' statement. Anyone who follows through on this should ask them to either prove that statement or withdraw it - preferably with an apology.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    There was a double standard when it comes to V/M and nobody can convince me otherwise. I know people will just say V/M fans are crazy and paranoid or whatever, but when the same thing happened to the Shibs all I saw was sympathy and concerns from people. With V/M people just wanted to rip them a new one and "omg they're so scared to lose!" and "look they're trying to cheat their way to a medal!" The fact that people are still making comments that specifically says V/M's stop was an embarrassment and the wording of the letter makes me feel they have no chance next season.
  20. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    What have V/M - especially Tessa - done to deserve this hate? I don't get it.
  21. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    THIS.
    Who came up with this rule and put it into effect? Who oversaw its application? And how is any misuse of the rule on the part of the skaters even apparent let alone obvious? The ISU officials who composed this communication and decided it was appropriate are completely unprofessional and just plain cowardly.

    To echo what cherub said, this is merely speculation. None of us could possibly know if P&C skated with the intention of stopping, and i see no reason to assume that they would. I just think it is unfair to question their integrity like that. imo, all skaters deserve the benefit of the doubt

    And THIS

    Also, Shayii, i feel the same way. First it was fans and skaters like Jenny Kirk making uninformed, ignorant comments and now the ISU does this. Sad.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  22. Jeanne7

    Jeanne7 New Member

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    They've done nothing. But by being by far the best and most dominant ice dance team in the world for a number of years now, jealousy, nationalism & politicking has raised its ugly head. When you're at the top many want to knock you down rather than admire your success.
  23. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    What did Jenny Kirk say?
  24. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, it was in a podcast where she and her partner spoke about the V/M stoppage.
    Here is the youtube link
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nt3n8XqFVIc#at=528

    Fast forward to about the 6 minute mark where they are comparing the newfoundconnection of D/W versus what Tessa & Scott show us. There are little snide remarks that if were said about anyone else, there would be an uproar.

    For instance, when talking about the connection Tessa & Scott have, mention is made along the lines of "I don't know what they do in their private lives but they look like a couple who have an on-again, off-again relationship"
    Hmmm been reading the kool-aid methinks?

    Then at about the 8:40 mark, Jenny goes on to bring up the "stoppage" in Carmen. They both weigh in on the topic and again it's more innuendo than stating your opinion.

    Truthfully, I don't bother listening to them any more. Not after this "discussion".
  25. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Er, isn't that what Carmen was anyway? It was a pull and push relationship so duh.

    Wait. I just watched that. I do not think he means "on and off" in a negative sense. It's more like there is such a palpable sexual tension when they perform, typical of an on-again-off-again relationship. He is, in fact, praising that connection, in my opinion.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  26. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Oh. Now I remember. They were so rude and disrespectful
  27. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    Possibly because they're Canadian? After following the figure skating threads for many years, I've noticed a small but persistent group of posters who deride Canadian skaters at every opportunity. Like the nonsensical poster who repeats ad nauseum that Skate Canada is corrupt. It's gone on for years because few get called on it.
  28. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    You've noticed that too, hey?
  29. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    I can understand why they hate SC but the hate all Canadian skaters? Thats screwed up.
  30. Lety

    Lety Member

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    I had not seen this video yet, but I think the way they spoke of what happened was quite unnecessary... They looked more like gossip commentators who speak a disrespectful way, and that my mother sometimes watches, not people talking about a sport.

    I really think ISU should look at their own shortcomings in a more cautious and recognize the need to take care of their internal problems, rather than trying to pass their mistakes or misunderstandings to others making statements like those made.
  31. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the way they addressed it was very unprofessional.
  32. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    RE: the bolded part.

    Ding ding ding! We have a winner. For all that these two attempt to be professional in their interviews -- and to be honest I thought they had been doing a pretty good job til that point -- it just comes across as gossipy. It's more the tone of what was said -- and unsaid.
  33. aliona22

    aliona22 New Member

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    more than a small minority have been on and off this bandwagon, especially after salt lake. seems ridiculous to consider v/m in this context however, considering how talented they are. i do often wonder why chan gets the "chanflation" and v/m don't, when they are as much on "another level" in terms of ss as chan among the male skaters, and certainly more consistent.

    i dislike the patriotism aspect of competitive figure skating; in major dance companies you would rarely seen an audience clamoring for an individual's success based on nationality, over performance ability and skills.
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  34. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    I can't be only because Tessa and Scott are Canadian. B&K and D&L of course were Canadian but while some fans found B&K overrated there were just as many (if not more) who vehemently defended them. Even the American press lacking any dance team of their own to promote took up the cause of B&K. And D&L while not as popular as B&K were, were given their due and none of their placements were questioned.

    I'm really taken aback (although I shouldn't be by now) with how V&M have been treated this entire quad thus far. I've never seen a team who skates at the level Tessa and Scott do subjected to the constant negativity they have been. That includes ridiculous speculation and made up stories about their personal lives. I lost a great deal of respect for Jenny Kirk after that podcast. Heck, perhaps I should offer to be interviewed about the icedance competition as I have just as much "knowledge" as Jenny's partner in that interview (been an icedance fan for almost 30 years). Actually if we are pushing it that far I can name a few posters here on FSU who are far more knowledeable than both Jenny and her partner who IMO is nothing more than a fan with a blog. Jenny should have known better and ITA if that conversation was about any team other than V&M it would have cause a huge blow up.
  35. Rotation

    Rotation New Member

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  36. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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  37. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Great post and welcome to the boards:)
    That is exactly what bothered me about it. Jenny says the stop was "suspect" (what was so suspect about it?) and passes Tessa's condition off as the normal physiological responses a figure skater experiences during a program. She should have waited to learn the reason for the stoppage rather than assume and tell others that it was basically just a break due to fatigue. I expected more from her. And her sidekick is just ridiculous!

    I have to agree. Admittedly, i have been reluctant to see this because i have loved D&W since their first year in seniors and i really do enjoy rooting for both teams. But if i am being honest, V&M are far superior in terms of their skating skills (with P&B being closest to them in rhis respect, imo), yet they sometimes lose this category of the PCS to D&W. I could understand that more if D&W had more complex programs but the opposite is true (V&M better demonstrate "multidirectional skating" with several seamless changes of direction, and they have wider variety and greater complexity in their transitions). When i look at the compression and extension of the knees, the use of the edge (frequency of use, depth of edge, and edge control) and the amplitude of the patterns, there is a big difference between the two teams. This is apparent in how the two teams use momentum in the program. D&W maintain incredible speed throughout by using their exceptionally quick feet to take crossovers and Meryl sometimes use her toe picks to do the same. V&M vary their speed and suspend their momentum and then rebuild it instantaneously by using the compression and extension of their knees. Also, D&W tend to assist their edges more with their body weight (ie. they shift their bodies to the right for a right outside edge) whereas V&M have greater ankle flexion that allows their upper bodies better range and steadiness.

    I promise this is not an insult to D&W or any other team as they are all incredibly talented. I just think that V&M, like others have said, are a once-in-a-generation kind of team.

    Also, thanks for the info, Rotation, and welcome to the boards!
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  38. icefan1005

    icefan1005 New Member

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    I think jealousy from peers/non-fans has always been a factor for V/M, but it really is ridiculous how obvious it has been this quad. It's terrible how V/M, who are a once-in-a-generation team, continue to experience this. I do wonder if others like the greats and skating experts (who recognize how brilliant V/M are) have also felt the negative treatment of V/M this quad. Didn't Zhulin say something after Worlds iirc?
  39. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    The skaters (besides Davis and White) all say that Virtue and Moir are the best or that they wish they could skate like Tessa and Scott. The only confused ones seem to be the judges and Marina...
  40. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    I honestly believe some of Marina's apparent disinterest in Tess and Scott can be attributed to the fact that they are definite about retiring after this year. She has another team , D/W, who have not said they are retiring, and are potentially WCh's for a couple more years. I would think, financially, this is where the bottom line comes for her. But that's pure speculation on my part and definitely quite a cynical opinion!