Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Bringing this over from the W/P thread. So Tessa and Scott aren't doing WTT.
     
  2. Manaud

    Manaud New Member

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    please keep in mind that this is not necessarily due to skate canada, but rather the host organizing committee.
     
  3. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    thank GOD
    i rather have them do a third gp than wtt
     
  4. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Skate Canada was the host federation. Its people were involved in and were aware of all aspects of the organization.
     
  5. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    OT, but have you guys seen this? Lol it's so cute, apparently it's their special handshake. I've never seen it before.
     
  6. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    I also want to say how much I love the comments being made here. :respec: to everyone.

    The only issue with that is V&M would end up taking a chance by hoping the judges would finally see the light. And that Skate Canada and the Canadian press might finally start to promote their home team. In all fairness, right before Worlds we did see a few articles that were positive about V&M but it seemed it was too little, too late. This is something that should have been done all season.

    If the judges don't have a change of heart then it would be another season just like this one only this time a second Olympic gold is on the line.

    I do think V&M will still come up with new elements and ideas for their Olympic FD but I agree they need to dial it back a tad with the degree of difficulty. They bent over backwards and killed themselves to introduce news ideas and movement to the sport but all it seemed to get them was criticism and accusations that they are falling further behind the supposedly superior D&W.

    Tessa and Scott do often take the entire season to build their programs but they can't afford to do that again. Don't get me wrong, I don't see V&M completely taking the easy way out and doing a more empty program. I also think them building to a peak by the end of the season events will change but I think they could/should find some sort of middle ground. Something in between Mahler and Carmen both in technical content and artistry. Or maybe between Funny Face and Carmen.

    Right now things are clearly going D&W's way. The programs they chose are specifically designed (IMO) to try and disguise their shortcomings and give the illusion they are much better than they are. So far there is nothing that indicates the judges are ready to see things differently. Of course we have seen in the past that all of a sudden in icedancing the judges can change their opinions at the drop of a hat. But again, it's all speculation. If I were D&W, why take a chance especially in an Olympic year when going on five seasons now the judges are firmly in my corner.

    Not to mention, while D&W are an excellent technical team and are fast (but I disagree as well they are faster than V&M) I do think they are one of those teams who have reached top end of what they are capable of. I just can't see them attempting a program with the wall to wall content of Carmen and being able to pull it off. ITA again that almost all of D&W's FD's since POTO look the same but they are doing what works for them and so far they have been given no reason to change.

    Don't get me wrong walei, I agree with everything you say but unfortunately we have to factor in whatever the judges are thinking and hoping that they have a change of heart. That is a big question mark and risk.

    I agree again but...

    At this point, V&M seem damned if they do, damned if they don't. They get a boatload of criticism no matter what. Even a program like Carmen didn't seem to stop that; to change peoples low opinion of them.

    As I said above, I think V&M can dial back some of the extreme difficulty of what the do while still presenting a program that still stands out artistically and have the neccesary difficulty.

    With Tessa and Scott it's not just that the risk and level of content of the Carmen FD wasn't appreciated, it's also that they overtrained and put more strain on themselves both physically and emotionally. And for what? They still ended up coming off to many as if they were faltering and are falling behind D&W.

    I agree with you about V&M choosing to do a ballet for next season. It could have the feel of Mahler but still have creative elements within it.
     
  7. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding. We don't have an issue with people who love both V&M and D&W and I don't think any of us have an issue with people having differing views in general.

    It's those who clearly hate V&M and come here just to be snide and take cheap shots; make personal attacks on V&M and some of the posters here that is the problem.

    Cachoo and kitty, both of you made great posts and presented yourselves in a respectful manner. Even if I don't end up agreeing with all of what you say, I respect that you came here to have a civil discussion. I think it's to be expected that everyone is not going to agree but it's all in how a person presents themselves.

    I hope neither of you feel as if you can't come here and join in the debate. I don't think that is what anyone wants.

    Cachoo, I think it was necessary for V&M to do a program like Carmen. It goes back to what I said before about Tessa and Scott being damned if they do and damned if they don't. We all know how good they are and how capable they are of moving an audience and using their incredible connection to sell their programs. However, they have been criticized in the past for their romantic themed programs; accused of always being too "lovey dovey" all the time.

    I do think if V&M do a ballet FD next year they can capitalize on their romantic connection while still bringing something new to the table. Especially with Jennifer Swan still on board.
     
  8. elle123

    elle123 Member

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    Don't forget the fluttering eyelashes and panting heavily at the end of the program so EVERYONE knows you skated your HEART out! (Ok, enough with the snark)

    AMEN! I love that lift, probably one of my all-time favourite lift of theirs. I'm not sure how I'd feel about them recycling it, though. It'd have to be the right music because how they construct their lifts to the music is one of things I love most about them. You can almost feel the music with their movement.
     
  9. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say in general V/M are receiving low opinions but maybe only from the judges (in relation to D/W because V/M are still getting monster scores compare to the rest of the field), and from the D/W ubers but that's to be expected. Last year with FF there were a lot of criticism that V/M are only doing sappy romantic programs. This year however I see from neutral camps, those that prefers neither V/M or D/W, are singing praises for Carmen. The past skaters and TV commentators also are obviously amazed by the FD this year.

    Of course at the end of the day it's the judges' opinion that matter most because they are still first and foremost athletes competing in a sport. In that sense I agree with you that V/M are in a damn if they do damn if they don't situation.
     
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I didnt saw this before. Yes, they are so cute :)
     
  11. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I feel happy. Good luck to W-P at WTT! And i hope they will not push Keithlyn too much.
    And i hope T-S will go to vacations now and have good rest. And maybe after that they will change there minds about coaching situation :)))))))))
    I hope Tessa will recover... At least she will feel, like she was in Nice.
     
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  13. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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  14. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! If someone will listening interview, please, let me know, what Scott said :D

    But maybe they will download this programs tomorrow on this sie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I remember a ton of posts last year from V&M fans and ice dance fans saying they really hoped V&M would bring it with a really creative classic FD, even if it meant placing 2nd at every competition.

    Not me; I wanted them to win. :lol:

    But it happened, so hopefully people actually were able to appreciate it and win some new fans.

    To be honest, I wonder if a lot of fans of that dramatic style of ice dancing with beautiful lines and deep edges have just given up on ice dancing in general, and that's maybe why V&M aren't getting the support. I was talking to a friend who used to be a huge fan of ice dancing and they said they could not bear to watch anymore as CoP has sucked out a lot of interesting details and with the elimination of the CD and destroying the OD. I notice a lot of the FSU posters that used to be really into ice dance barely commented on Worlds. FSU used to have some great discussions analyzing all the dances, the politiks, the technik of all top couples... and now that seems to be left to the uber threads.
     
  16. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I notice this too. But i think maybe this just becaise people agree with overall results. And maybe talked to much about all FDs during all season.
    Abd yes, i was one of fans, who wished to see something creative more then gold :D And they did this. I even asked them to use unusuall choreo on overused music ;)
    But who could imaging new ice dance fans and old judges isnt ready to see nothing new and hot? :D
     
  17. zotza

    zotza allergic to brainless skaters

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    I think this happens because especially as time goes by with CoP ice dancing is turning into a more political event than it ever was. Everything that was good about the sport is getting destroyed little by little. There was no way for people to get on the podium under 6.0 if they had bad posture,serious technical problems,edge problems, etc.Yes, there were different ways to cheat but what about the TES? The way it's been this season is just strange. You either know what level something is or not, you either understand the technical difficulty or not.
    If a program is judged difficulty wise using just 8 elements then it's not fair to all these skaters that want to add. And yes, one can argue that it's all about the PCS then,but how is this really used? How are transitions used and why do they actually try to make ice dancing into a " stay on your two feet ,do nothing and get the marks" kind of sport.
    V/M risked,which means that if you risk you should get more credit even in case you're not perfectly crisp and crystal clear.Because you risk,and this is what sport is supposed to be.
    I am always intrigued by the twizzles of the top couples. There are levels being given,rules on how to give them, and yet it always strikes me that people who don't do a catch foot position, have the obligatory little jump,but are painfully slow shouldn't be given level 4. Yet, almost all of the couples are being given a level 4. So maybe one should take the technical panel and make them do the actual twizzles themselves.
    Same applies for the spins, and don't get me started on the step sequences.The discipline needs a serious check up,not to say open heart surgery right now.
     
  18. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    D&W are ice skaters, V&M are ice dancers.

    I guess the ISU needs to clarify what this discipline is supposed to be. At the moment it seems to favour ice skaters.
     
  19. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I think they want to get out ice dance from OG. Thats why they made this SD, give teams 10th in PCS - all for people start hating ice dance :)
    I want to ask people from D-W thread - what must we talking about to make you happy, guys? :D
     
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think some people would disagree regarding posture (Drobiazko, Bourne) and edge quality (Chait, Margaglio). However, poor quality skaters have also medalled under the CoP (Goncharov, Kostomarov) so it has not solved whatever it was supposed to solve.

    Yes, this. The SD/OD has became more like a singles short program. Do your elements and don't make any mistakes. It doesn't matter if you have the feel of the dance or not. There is barely even time to dance.

    ITA, but I will add I don't see anywhere V&M were not crisp and crystal clear in their FD. It was excellent.

    That has always annoyed me about CoP. You find something that's level 4 that's easy for you and just repeat it all the time. No credit is given for added difficulty once you're at level 4, and no credit is given in PCS for the originality of the positions or how well they fit the program. I mean I&K usually get level 4 lifts and great PCS and they have terrible lifts.
     
  21. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes, most teams doing the same spin durin 10 years. And we saw, V-M use old one too at WCh. Its was so beautifull - like he lookes on her face :swoon:
    But i think D-W jump into spin was impressive. Just think V-M original spin was more like part of the dance, but not just element.

    I think next season V-M need to do SS at the begining and spin - on fresh feets. If D-W puted all three lifts in the end and this was OK for judges, i think V-M could use this too.
    And as for twizzles. Yes, D-W have super twozzles, very fast. But you didnt see there jumps, becasue they are too fast and you couldnt.
    What i like in V-M twizzles - it cover a lot of ice and i like how this twizzles have the end with music.
     
  22. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this statement incredibly strongly, but without getting into D/W at all, would you care to share what other current skaters are "ice dancers". I'm honestly interested to know.
     
  23. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Appreciate your interest though.
     
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I my opinion, Capelinni-Lanotte is a brilliant dancers and could compete in baalroom dancing, but not very strong skaters.
    P-B (IMHO) good dancers and good skaters.
    I think Platov made very dancing programs for Penny and Nikolas.
    And i think Zach Donahue is great dancer.
    Plas i think a lot off depend from how coaches working with there teams. For example B-S. I couldnt say they are best dancers, but Zhulin did for them programs with a lot off diffrerent body-moves, with moves from modern ballet and this look amazing (IMHO).
     
  25. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for replying pani. I really appreciate your thoughts on it. It sounds like bmcg either doesn't want to play along or thinks VM are the only skaters worthy of being called dancers...

    I agree with you that C/L are gorgeous dancers.

    I really like V/M as dancers, but I also like D/W. I just don't see how being a fan of one team means that you have to completely dismiss everything the other team does. I found it very rude to say that D/W are not ice dancers at all.
     
  26. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Just doesn't want to play along with, your last paragraph explains why.
     
  27. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Wasnt this rud all time from last season talk about how V-M are bad and and D-W must win in Nice? Or all this talk about Devil Scott? :D If i dont want read about this, i am not reading D-W thread ;)
    I am strongly sure people, who really love both teams (i cant imaging this, because of very different style of both, but what i know?) couldnt see the difference in dancing ability of this 4 people. And, of couse. see difference between Scott and Charlie body moves (i am not talking about Tessa). And see which FD is better and have new elements.
    So like i see why S-S lose to V-T at this WCh. I love both girls (Alyoan and Tanya), but i see there strong and weak points. And i see, that this season S-S didnt have such a good programs, like last season.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, new elements don't score points. I'm thankful ice dancers don't seem to repeat their program one year to the next like singles skaters often will.

    It is very difficult to judge 'better' free dances, because the skaters are doing different things. Personal preference really shouldn't be a judging point, but execution of the style they danced, as well as the execution of the elements. In that regard, I think D/Ws free dance is just as good as V/Ms. My thoughts on D/W are better suited for another thread, so I won't get into it. But since the free dances are so different, I don't think you can compare them head to head, but rather against the standards written in the rulebook. It is criterion referenced, not norm-referenced, to borrow some terms from my industry.

    I think V/M were really hurt by the lack of compulsory dances. They were very precise and very good at them.


    As for trash talking in the D-W thread, I don't particpate in that, and I don't know if I read the ice dance threads much last year, so I really can't say.
     
  29. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    I felt that SS program was weak as well. I love them usually for their unusual choreo but not this year.

    I think I prefer something like Zhulin's comparison of the top two ice dance teams. D&W more technicians and VM more artists.
    Both teams are athletic but VM transcends the merely athletic!
     
  30. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Just because you didnt pay attention to upbody moves. Its easy run when your doby didnt work, just hand moves.
    As for new elements. Sorry, but isnt this made dance more interesting? I mean its boring to see the same lifts frome year to year, the same linking steps. When your body didnt work in music rythm - its not ice DANCING, sirry.
    Did you think this is best D-W FD? I think this i sonly one FD they skated from year to year.
    Its like long time ice dancing fans talked about V-M all the time before this season.
    I am happy for you, that you are happy to see the same thing from year to year, but not all FS like this. And the worast thing is D-W will never show something out of box. Why? I think because they couldnt move in different way. But they could prove i am wrong in next season.
     
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