Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    420
    now that v/m is kinda out of the limelight, hopefully the russian federation will be politicking against D/W while the USFSA will be politiking against the russians, ignoring v/m. meanwhile V/M will rise to the top like a phoenix rising from the ashes:p

    even though its an atrocity to the sport that d/w won, we should be thankful that they won at the same time because that takes the pressure off of v/m
     
  2. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    Mahler :)
     
  3. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    420
    also guys what do you think about v/m dancing to wagner's liebestod/tristan and isolde? i've seen so many posts saying that they should dance to that
     
  4. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    9,348
    When people say Mahler, what other skaters would people be thinking about?

    Or Funny Face? Heh.

    I'm pretty confident that Marina will choose a classical piece that is romantic, but probably not as ethereal as Mahler.
     
  5. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    ITA Cherub. I would add, like a lot of things, D/W's crispness is partly illusion. The fact that they don't hold their lines and moves or use much in the way of sustained movements, it makes them look more crisp, but what V/M are doing is actually harder. I think, for the record, that once V/M learn their new moves, their execution is just as crisp. Besides, there's more to exectuion than crispness. There is cleanliness as well, and V/M are far, far cleaner in their execution.

    And, yes, the fact that many of D/W's elements are so old, the fact that they have fewer transitions, and that their program construction is odd (e.g., three lifts in a row at the end) makes things a lot easier on them.

    I also agree with wanting them to have something that's just theirs. There is Mahler, but a lot of people also associate that with G/G since Katia did the piece after Sergei's death. Like you, I also don't care if it's romantic or what genre it's from.
     
  6. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    Hip-hip Chin-chin :D
    I hope Scott know there muisc and like he said- this will be something interesting and soemthing they didnt made before
     
  7. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    I think they're doing a ballet. The concept might be interesting though
     
  8. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    I want to make a point about descriptors such as "crispness" and "clean precision". For me, the quality of crispness in a skating program relates more to the music and the style of the skater - quick, staccato movements, quick changes of position, for example as in a march. This applies to the majority of DW's programs, but the downside is that they don't finish their movements, attention to head position, toe point and arm position are weaker. When I look at VM's skating, I would not describe them as "crisp", but more as "precise" they don't have an overabundance of rapid movements succession, every move is deliberate, they create shapes. Clean precision is more of a quality I see in VM, but not as a complete package in DW.
    I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself clearly, it's really not a case of semantics, I'm sure one of you more eloquent posters can elaborate.
    btw, love your post gerbil
     
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    9,348
    Love the idea of a ballet.

    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze? I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.
     
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    They already have bronze and B-S show such a big progress this season.
    And with USA help they even culd have silver, when Chan will have gold and all are happy. Maybe Canada wish gold at OG Team competitions.
     
  11. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    No! You did a fabulous job expressing yourself. I totally get what you're saying and agree. D/W move fast, but like you say, that comes at the expense of finishing off their moves in their case (you can move fast and finish your moves off--I'm sure we'll see that in V/M's SD next year). I argue that what V/M do is harder. I think it's much harder to hold a move than to move quickly. Lifting your leg up and immediately setting your leg back down is far easier than lifting your leg and holding that position for an extended amount of time.

    Aw, thanks. I'm glad you liked the post. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
    puglover and (deleted member) like this.
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    What do you think about Anna Karenina?
     
  13. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    You also have to factor in pairs and ladies when thinking about the team event, and I actually think it's going to be hard to figure out until closer to time who's stronger on paper and what would be the best strategy...
     
  14. sequins

    sequins Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Just want to clarify on my post from yesterday, because I think I was just feeling 'let down' and maybe 'sentimenal' at that time, that while I'm happy to see V/M skate always no matter what. I do care about the result, I do care that they are being shafted but sometimes I get so tired of it. I hoped this judging system was better and I don't know right now if it's the judging system, the judges themselves, the politics etc. probably all of those things, that are producing these results. Maybe being Canadian to I just wish we didn't have to go down this road, what seems like all the time. From B&K, S&P, Elvis, Patrick, Jeff, seems like we always have to defend their reputations and fight for what we feel they deserve. We shouldn't always have to fight, and with V/M I never thought we'd have to they are that good and have done NOTHING to deserve this. I don't know if the media & SC are reluctant to do or say anything because D/W are American and because they train with them day in, day out. They don't want to cause trouble ? Or maybe, like me they get tired of being labelled a'whiner' or a 'flag waver' just because I want to defend what I see as unjust. I don't know but I truly don't see anything happening unless V/M start to really get dropped next season, as in 'now competing for silver and bronze' which I don't see happening. Maybe some 'outside' voices will start speaking up and at least the media may jump on board before Sochi, if need be, but I just don't see that either. I'm frustrated, angry and disappointed...again. D/W are talented, I like them but this is not fair. So in the end I will continue to defend them and what I feel they rightfully deserve , not that it matters much to anyone, but I also just want to enjoy them for as long as they'll let us and I want them to be happy. Judges and politics will do whatever they want anyways so, but I'm not giving up nor am I content to just sit by and let them get beaten down again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
    puglover and (deleted member) like this.
  15. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,816
    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.

    Have I covered everything? OK, now you guys know I'm just teasing with that list, right? Tongue planted firmly in cheek and all!

    However, I think there's a couple things there that they could look at doing if they are serious about winning next season instead of just leaving a legacy.
    First, stop with the crazy and all brand new lifts (although that would make me sad cause that's part of what I look forward to seeing). Use a couple from the past few years. Works for D/W, why shouldn't V/M do likewise? It would mean less new things to learn.
    Also, I think Skate Canada needs to "politik" better with the media -- especially once the GP season begins. They need to talk up V/M, create hype and optimism. Get reporters of sports - not just figure skating one - on board.
    Change coaches. Yeah, I know they likely won't do such a thing, but it bothers me a great deal that all the things that have made V/M so successful are being copied by their training mates. They need to be in an environment where that kind of thing won't be happening. I know, next to impossible that such would happen, but I can still wish.
     
    puglover and (deleted member) like this.
  16. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    Carmen, I do not disagree. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I am not happy about the way the season went, I think V-M deserved better. They had outstanding material that, for some reason, was never truly embraced by the judges. On that I agree with you completely.

    Now, that is one thing. My personal enjoyment of both programs is another. My happiness has nothing to do with their results, I am not asking anyone to feel happy because they lost. I am saying that I am glad that they decided to be ambitious and I am thankful to them for giving us these two incredible programs this season because I, as a fan of the sport, can appreciate what they tried to and, yes, succeeded to do.

    Of course it is unfair that two mistakes on the short dance saw them more than three points behind. That was not necessary and the fact that most of the gap came from GOE and PCS is even more infuriating, I understand that. Of course it is not fair that, again, the subjective marks were the difference in the free dance.

    It is not that V-M’s programs need to be polished since the very beginning, they never are! And, hey, that’s logical: they like to work their programs because most of their material is new. My problem is that the biggest effort isn’t being rewarded. Let me explain: anyone who competes at a high level is a hard worker, but not all hard workers make the same effort, correct? Now, Carmen and The Waltz Goes On were VERY difficult programs structurally speaking. If you create a program from scratch with new lifts and steps, that is going to take a while to perfect. Both programs were pretty much set by Nationals. The USFSA gave monster scores to D-W; Skate Canada asked V-M to work on a few things. Did that send a message? I wonder. But what happened next makes me think V-M were on track to win, they had a marvelous first skate a 4CC. They had momentum there, beating D-W in the short dance and then Tessa’s injury happened. That, I think, gave the judges the perfect out. Looking back, maybe Pani was right and they shouldn’t have made that trip, maybe they should’ve stayed home. I don’t know. My point is that momentum was lost after Four Continents. I, naively perhaps, thought the judges weren’t going to let that affect their perception of their programs at Worlds, but it did and that is unacceptable. I can’t, for the life of me, find a 3.25-point between the Waltz Goes On and Giselle. Not when D-W didn’t even level 4 the entire thing. It was, indeed, a cleaner skate, but it was not perfect. V-M’s skate wasn’t as terrible as the numbers imply. So, you see, there are little details that do not quite add up because most fall on the subjective marks.

    When V-M lost Worlds in 2011, you could see where and how they lost it. I could see, even having won the short dance, what their Latin program lacked on the ice and on the marks. I know others thought they should’ve won, but I didn’t, I thought that result was fair and I was okay with it. Here I do not get precisely where it is that they lost it.

    But not even that disappointment will make me think that their efforts were pointless or aimless. I got those programs. And, sure, I am a nobody in the figure skating world, my opinion doesn’t really change anything, but still, I truly did appreciate the programs and I am happy they took those risks.
     
  17. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    First, Carmen, I think this is one of the best posts I've ever read.

    That's what I keep coming back to. V/M are a once-in-a-generation sort of team and we are so very lucky that they came along. It is wonderful we've gotten to see and enjoy all that they do, BUT our enjoyment of what they do does NOT make it ok that they're not being marked properly in relation to D/W. It is never ok when the marking is not correct, no matter how much you still enjoy your team. For me, it makes it hard to enjoy what I'm watching when I'm stewing over the judging.

    This. V/M may be artists but they are athletes and VERY competitive people at that. The pro-circuit isn't what it used to be, but V/M would have been in high demend for shows across the globe, partiuclarly in Russia where they are adored. They would have been free to just be artists. However, here they are still competing. They're still competing because they want to win. They've said that they want to win. Also, like you said, in those pictures from the medal ceremonies, V/M's faces weren't those of people who were happy with being artists, regardless of the color of the medal. They looked down, disappointed, etc.

    And I'm not quite seeing how Marina wants what is best for V&M. In icedance it's always been just as much about what takes place off the ice as what takes place on the ice. Marina has been around long enough to know that. Whether it is based in fact or just superstition, we've seen in the past teams (and even singles skaters) keep injuries or illnesses quiet for fear the judges would use that against them. Marina isn't stupid; for her to talk about Tessa's weaknesses was something we usually don't see a coach do. At least not during a competition and not while a team she was trying to help win a title was still in the thick of things.
     
  18. Alixana

    Alixana who is on vacation!!

    Joined:
    May 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,266
    V&M need to leave now. There's no way one coach can give their time and attention equally to competitors like these two (and stay neutral at the same time). Sorry, I know this has been said many times, but I needed to get it off my chest :lol:
     
  19. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    She will say - its not me who give marks to you, you are both may childrens. Its all bad judges did.
     
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,074
    I think they are realists at the end of the day, so no.

    That's an excellent point. Hadn't thought of that. Not that I'm convinced that the Russians have sole power over the placements, but yeah, it would be better for Russia if D&W placed first in the team event. But does that placement carry over to the dance final? In the old days, probably yes; today, the results are more back and forth, sometimes through a season, sometimes through a competition, sometimes by alternating World titles.

    So it might be good for V&M if D&W beat them in the team comp, because then V&M can win the ice dance comp and both sides have been given "something."

    OTOH, I've been thinking a lot about the team comp and think if Canada wins it will really hurt their chances politically. If by the time dance rolls around Canada already has two gold medals, it will be hard for them to win, especially since the US is unlikely to medal in pairs and men. US' next best chance is ladies, but that comes after dance so D&W will be the only sure thing at that point.
     
  21. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    You're funny . . . but you forgot about developping a newfoundconnection.
     
  22. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    Cachoo I can see what you're saying. Why not Tessa and Scott stick with what works? You know, their trademark programs? Well because they're artists and artists take risks. I'm glad they have decided not to rest on their laurels and keep stretching themselves. Like sequins I feel frustrated because there's nothing we can do. I wish there was a way that we can make our voice be heard. The analysis here is absolutely spot on and that's why I feel Marina can't give them her best. I want a coach that absolutely feels they are the best, would definitively say so, and would fight for them in public about why they are the best. I want a coach that would get mad for them for not being rewarded for such a groundbreaking program and wouldn't be afraid of comparing the difference in quality between the two teams; a coach that can go in-depth with her critique and doesn't have to worry about throwing the other team under the bus out of allegiance. Right now Marina can't do that for both. We should type up these analysis and send them off to PJ, Tracey, and the ISU. (I was going to put J/K on that last sentence, but I don't think I am).
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  23. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,074
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,653
    Shayii, everyone who want to send there thoughts to the ISU. could did this on ISU facebook page.
     
  25. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    I am more than okay with PJ reading this, but she can't do anything, she's just a journalist. What she can do, however, is provide a forum for debate. She does have a blog and a podcast. It sure is a fascinating topic. But would it accomplish anything? I am not too sure.

    But I would like to see these things discussed on the media. No one debates about figure skating anymore these days and when they do it is about: "OMG, Voir are so perfect, they're, like, so boring. And Tessa is, like, heavy while Merlie are, like, so exciting and OMG, their hair is SO pretty! And Patrick Chan fell again and he WON, thank god Canada didn't cheat in dance too."

    So, yeah, it is too superficial, not to mention idiotic. There are many knowledgeable people in both fan bases. If the debate were a bit more public, many interesting things would happen. Again, not saying it would solve anything, but we would at least be discussing the sport on a more public forum and that puts the sport a little bit more "out there". I miss those days.
     
  26. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    You're right it might not change anything, it probably wouldn't, but at least it'll still be out there.

    And thanks Cherub.
     
  27. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    Like I said, I'm all for it. If only for the debate possibilities! How to go about it, though?
     
  28. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    It may not change anything, but like you said, it would be out there and perhaps provoke a real discussion about what really counts in figure skating and ice dancing. You're right that the press seems to focus on the superficial--the hair, the personalities, etc. like it was some reality show instead of a sport. I want skating to be treated like a real sport, with analysis that really gets down into the technical side of things.
     
  29. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,904
  30. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    Talking of reworking.... I would love to see a modern sensual version of Umbrellas.

    All this politiking talk is so upsetting. I love both VM & Chan and its so unfair that only one can win.

    That why I retreat to my own bubble and just enjoy .... its self preservation.

    I agree though that its hard to diffrentiate one DW program from the other - they all have the same flutter flutter feel to them. Fledermaus is the only one that I can slightly remember as the music is so catchy and she did the new on his shoulder lift which was repeated this year.

    But I can really remember every one of their FDs since Valse Triste!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.