Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.
You're funny . . . but you forgot about developping a newfoundconnection.
Cachoo I can see what you're saying. Why not Tessa and Scott stick with what works? You know, their trademark programs? Well because they're artists and artists take risks. I'm glad they have decided not to rest on their laurels and keep stretching themselves. Like sequins I feel frustrated because there's nothing we can do. I wish there was a way that we can make our voice be heard. The analysis here is absolutely spot on and that's why I feel Marina can't give them her best. I want a coach that absolutely feels they are the best, would definitively say so, and would fight for them in public about why they are the best. I want a coach that would get mad for them for not being rewarded for such a groundbreaking program and wouldn't be afraid of comparing the difference in quality between the two teams; a coach that can go in-depth with her critique and doesn't have to worry about throwing the other team under the bus out of allegiance. Right now Marina can't do that for both. We should type up these analysis and send them off to PJ, Tracey, and the ISU. (I was going to put J/K on that last sentence, but I don't think I am).
Shayii, everyone who want to send there thoughts to the ISU. could did this on ISU facebook page.
I am more than okay with PJ reading this, but she can't do anything, she's just a journalist. What she can do, however, is provide a forum for debate. She does have a blog and a podcast. It sure is a fascinating topic. But would it accomplish anything? I am not too sure.
But I would like to see these things discussed on the media. No one debates about figure skating anymore these days and when they do it is about: "OMG, Voir are so perfect, they're, like, so boring. And Tessa is, like, heavy while Merlie are, like, so exciting and OMG, their hair is SO pretty! And Patrick Chan fell again and he WON, thank god Canada didn't cheat in dance too."
So, yeah, it is too superficial, not to mention idiotic. There are many knowledgeable people in both fan bases. If the debate were a bit more public, many interesting things would happen. Again, not saying it would solve anything, but we would at least be discussing the sport on a more public forum and that puts the sport a little bit more "out there". I miss those days.
You're right it might not change anything, it probably wouldn't, but at least it'll still be out there.
And thanks Cherub.
Like I said, I'm all for it. If only for the debate possibilities! How to go about it, though?
It may not change anything, but like you said, it would be out there and perhaps provoke a real discussion about what really counts in figure skating and ice dancing. You're right that the press seems to focus on the superficial--the hair, the personalities, etc. like it was some reality show instead of a sport. I want skating to be treated like a real sport, with analysis that really gets down into the technical side of things.
The HD copies of the SD are starting to arrive on youtube.
Here's Tessa & Scott's SD, British Eurosport coverage:
Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir
Talking of reworking.... I would love to see a modern sensual version of Umbrellas.
All this politiking talk is so upsetting. I love both VM & Chan and its so unfair that only one can win.
That why I retreat to my own bubble and just enjoy .... its self preservation.
I agree though that its hard to diffrentiate one DW program from the other - they all have the same flutter flutter feel to them. Fledermaus is the only one that I can slightly remember as the music is so catchy and she did the new on his shoulder lift which was repeated this year.
But I can really remember every one of their FDs since Valse Triste!
So, if they're recycling lifts, that means they can reuse the rotational fromt he end of Carmen, right?
Yes, excellent idea. Are there any speed skating coaches in Detroit, or will they have to bring one in?
Absolutely. Also, Tessa needs to grow hers out even longer so that it will whip around during their performances.
I suppose she'll also have to stop working out with Maria Mountain. Being ripped and being ethreal don't go hand-in-hand. She'll have to lose muscle mass anyway to lose weight since there's really not any fat on that girl at all....
Forget the Virtue "French Family." The now have a "Russian Family." Pani, you can loan them some relatives for this correct?
This one kills me, and I already said this above, but they've got to dial back on the difficulty. Difficulty and originality are not rewarded in ice dance anymore. Once upon a time, challenging yourself technically and artistically every year was considered a given if you wanted to win titles, but that's clearly not the case anymore. They should let it go for next year; they can invent new things once they've retired from the competitive circuit.
SC has got to do this. They need to be focusing on their once-in-a-generation OGM ice dance team and not the team that just finished 18th at worlds.
Absolutely. I've talked about reasons to change coaches already today, but you bring up an excellent point that D/W are copying so much that have made V/M so sucessful. Seriously, D/W just say they have the same thing that V/M do and then suddenly, they have that trait too, even if it's not evident in their skating. V/M are not benefitting AT ALL from D/W seeing every move they make. No, D/W can't do what V/M can on ice, but they're still controlling the rhetoric in the press and part of it is coming from the fact that they (D/W) always know what's up with V/M. One example: There are rumors floating around that Tessa's been dealing with an ankle injury. In their pre-worlds press conference, D/W made it a talking point about how healthy they are. D/W do not need to be privy to that sort of information that they can feed to the press and their fed for purposes of politicking against V/M. If V/M are having injury issues, confidence issues, come up with something new that's really cool, choose to emphasize this, that, or the other, or whatever else is going on, D/W do not need to know it. If they know it, it just gets used against V/M. Not cool.
Emdee, if you go back and rewatch their FD's from 08-09 to now, if you didn't know the year and couldn't hear the music, you wouldn't really know they were skating a different program except for changes in costume. Well, to be fair, the element order does change from year-to-year. I think.
I know I made my sisters do this and they were in shock! Maybe the most original was the bollywood but even that paled when you compared it to Farrucas.
You could never do this with T&S. Nothing generic about them.
What you've just said struck me. I'd like to comment.
That's a list of very different skaters. Some are more deserving of "fight" than others. To come at the situation with a list as if we're always screwed and here's the list is something that can be used against you or anyone who has that feeling.
For instance. Elvis Stoiko is a multiple world champion, right? He could jump. He was slow, and he couldn't spin to save his life. His big calling card was he had a very macho, masculine style that was popular. It positioned him against Mr. Puffy Shirt Alexei Urmanov who represented a lot of what makes people uncomfortable with men figure skating - silly looking moves, puffy shirts, trilly music. Yet Urmanov was a more complete skater than Stoiko and he had the jumps. He's not as crowd pleasing, but that's a style issue.
The Stoiko versus "Someone Else" debate was often about what Stoiko represented, even more than the skating. But if he were Russian it would be a Plushenko thing "He can only jump."
Sale & Pelletier I was not a fan. The original result in 2002 was correct. To me Bereshznaya and Sikhuerlidze have more in common with Virtue Moir than Sale & Pelletier, especially in how 2002 was handled and the media manipulated.
I would never fight for Bourne & Kratz. Virtue Moir - every day and twice on Sundays. Very different teams. One is in a different league than the other, and a different league than everyone skating today. That wasn't the case with Bourne & Kratz. They deserved to be in the mix and they were, and they have a World title. Did they deserve more?
Long story short. Defend figure skating, not figure skaters or "our figure skaters." Fans of Virtue and Moir are fans of the best ice dancers in the world today. They don't belong on a list of skaters who may or may not have deserved to do better. At least not that list.
I don't think I'm being clear but it's more than fandom. It's important to make distinctions and focus on why Virtue and Moir deserve our support and deserve a loud defense. It's because they are the best skaters. That's what we're defending when we defend them.
In the past, I have been a fan of other teams and skaters who I felt were shafted in the judging. I'm not Canadian; I'm just a fan of great skating, no matter what country it's coming from. I never in a million years dreamed that V/M would be a team that would receive this kind of treatment. No, they didn't do anything to deserve this. They are a once-in-a-generation talent and they should be recongized as such.
Golightly, I wanted to positive rep you for this post, but I can't rep you again right now. I just wanted to say that I genuinely admire your ability to not let the rest of what's going on get in the way of your enjoyment of the programs.
It is incredibly unfair that those two mistakes put them 3 points behind and completely out of contention before they skated their FD. The overall quality of what V/M do should have been able to have absorbed those mistakes. It is not V/M's score I object to; it's the one D/W received. V/M skated a 73 point program. D/W did NOT skate a 77 point one though. They were overmarked, plain and simple. Not only that, they were overmarked before V/M ever set foot on the ice to skate their SD.
ITA. In the past, when all of the dance teams were putting together fresh, new things every year, everyone was rough and unpolished at the beginning of the season compared to the end at worlds. That was the whole point of the competitive season--to perfect, polish, and grow. Now, you have a team in D/W that's reusing stuff for years, basically doing the same program, so of course they have less polishing to do than teams who are starting from scratch and trying new things each year. Whereas in the past the team that was doing the recycling would have gotten the slap on the wrist, now it's the teams who are trying to be creative and do new things who are penalized. That simply is not fair.
I completely agree that V/M's effort isn't being rewarded. I also agree that anyone who's at this level is a hard worker, but that not all hard workers make the same effort. I'd go as far to say that some hard workers don't have the ability to make the effort that some do. V/M are simply capable of more than any other team competing these days.
I do come down on the side of thinking this season was rigged from the start to give a certain result needed for a certain storyline the ISU wants for next year in ice dance. I do wonder if the plan for 4CC was that V/M would be allowed to win (if they skated well) to give them and D/W one win each going into worlds so there could be the annual yearly show down at the final event.
The fact of the matter is this: the only thing that should matter in how a partiuclar performance is marked is what a team does in that particular performance. What happened at the last competition, early in the year, or the season before should have zero bearing. Heck, what happens in the SD should have no bearing on the FD scores. We see this playing out in pairs and singles. The slate is wiped clean between each competetion and in between each segment. You had a bad day in the SP? That's ok. No one is going to hold it against you during the FS. Did you botch a competition earlier in the year? No big deal. This is a new one and what happened before doesn't matter. Have a whole bad season for whatever reason? That's okay, you'll get your shot at redemption next year. For some reason, these same standards do not apply in ice dance and it is so wrong.
You can't find a 3.25 point difference between V/M's and D/W's SD's because there isn't one. You're exactly correct in your analysis; D/W's skate was cleaner, but it wasn't perfect. V/M weren't perfect, but they were'nt that bad, especially when you consider everything they put out there--their other elements, their PCS... Yes, there is so much here that just doesn't add up.
Thank you said this!
Its look like if i am V-M fan i couldnt see best qualities of other teams. But not in this case.
It's great to come back home and read these discussions after having spent the last 24 hours on (shaky) planes...
I wanted to add that I, too, believe that a strong PR strategy would be essential next season in order for them to have a shot at the Olympic title. Skate Canada would have to really respond to the US federation's increasingly aggressive campaign for Meryl and Charlie, by getting behind Tessa and Scott and underlying their unique qualities. I'm sure they can do it. I've just spent a week in London witnessing a spectacularly organized event, where the whole life of the city revolved around skating. If SC is able to do that, they sure could conceive a marketing campaign to support the best ice dancers in the world!
Subway, you make excellent points in your post, especially about the Salt Lake City pairs disaster and how B&S are so much like Tessa and Scott.
This seems like such a stupid question, but how do you rep someone here? I thought it was enough with just quoting them.
If you have a paid subscription, there's a little icon in the bottom left-hand corner you can click to give someone reputation points (or negative rep them if they're really offensive). Different point levels get you different little names. if you mouse over the little bar of green dots.
I am in no way endorsing the crazy blog...but, like a bad gossip magazine, i do read it every now and again... and I have to say the Meryl/Charlie and Tessa/Scott comparisons are actually pretty interesting on there right now. Not sure what has made him or her change her tune against the wild personal speculations, but I liked the past few posts about twizzles!
Really? Maybe she need to send this to ISU.
I sort of have an idea with others. Will PM you later.
I have never visited the famous blog, but could you share with us what was said about the twizzles? I am curious.
They have a bunch of gifs up from the last few seasons comparing the twizzles of D&W and V&M. What you see is basically what many of us here have been seeing. They do the same thing with little variation program after program, year after year whereas V&M change it up and add you can see how they change the twizzle element to compliment their theme and choreography, not just repeat the same element. It's actually quite interesting to watch to be honest. It would be interesting to see similar done with all the other elements and quite the eye opener for those who haven't figured this out on their own.
I think this is a big part of the reason behind the frustration we saw V&M go through last season. They know what they are doing, what they are trying, and it just simply isn't being rewarded or appreciated by the judges. The ISU really needs to address this. We've already lost the CD's but the current trend to reward what D&W do over V&M will ruin this discipline.
Golightly, thanks for that post and for clarifying (also another thank you to walei).
It's true that despite the fact that things didn't end the way we would have wished (they way they arguably should have) I am glad that we were given V&M/Jennifer Swan's version of Carmen. True that when the dust clears, this program could/should be their signature program. I do feel that having been able to bring their Carmen into the competitive arena was important. V&M were getting criticized for always doing the lush, romantic themed dances. With Carmen, Tessa and Scott proved they were capable of taking it to another level. They did that in the past with the Pink Floyd FD and this year they built on that and then some.
I am understanding the sentiment behind the being happy to have seen the Carmen FD a little bit better now. Thank you guys for that.
I have to admit that I'm just so undone by the issues V&M are having that at times, I haven't been able to properly separate the two things (judging issues vs personal enjoyment). ITA that I never would have imagined that a team like V&M would have been so easy to railroad and for the ISU/USFS to make it seem as if this is a team who can barely keep up with D&W and are beginning to fall behind.
Even with B&A in the past while I still feel that they (Tanith) were a bit underrated. B&A IMO were never as horrible as people made them to be. However, I do acknowledge that they did leave an opening or two for people to find fault and mark them down.
With V&M as others have stated, this is a team who seemed to have all their bases covered; no opeinings there or at least not many that were glaring. The Carmen FD was just the icing on top of the cake that made them into a complete package. It's unreal that people can watch them skate especially without the mistakes and see faults everywhere.
Like gerbil, I'm not convinced that it's all innocent; a case of the ISU simply being in one of those periods in which they want something different than what they had been emphasizing as good skating/icedancing pre-Vancouver. I feel that there are politics at work here as well.
The reason you can't find a 3.25 point different between Giselle and V&M's Waltz was because IMHO there wasn't one. Don't get me wrong, just like the SD at the GPF last season I had no issue with D&W winning the SD. My issue was the huge point spread that basically cost V&M the chance to try and fairly win the FD and the title overall. IIRC, the change to CoP was supposed to do away with those types of situations. That a team ends up out of contention after the first portion of the competition. In the other disciplines in the past we've even seen skaters make up huge point totals but not in icedance. I think that the structure of Carmen is such that with the performance V&M had Saturday they could have made up those 3.25 points in levels and GOE points but that just doesn't happen in this discipline. But with the D&W vs V&M "rivalry" we've seen that pattern established before. When D&W win the SD it's almost always by such a large margin that the competition has effectively end before the FD has even taken place. When V&M have come ahead in the SD it's usually by a much smaller margin. It's as if the judges are leaving the door open, making sure that D&W have the opening they need should they skate well. And for D&W, it seems skating well means no major falls or issues with lifts but they are allowed numerious bobbles. Those get ignored.
Can I just remind people in light of the usual B&K bashing that what they experienced competitively was unprecedented harassment from some members of the figure skating community - it wasn't just the whispers of 'leg line', 'speed', or whatever else was the popular critique of the day, it was the crazy Aunt crashing the press conference, the obnoxious official forcing them to jump the boards just to compete and the arrogant official arranging for them to finish back in the CDs and then smugly telling all and sundry about it so it would reach their ear. Of course SC supported them publicly - why would they not? Of course Canadians supported them - why would they not? That constant belittling undermined their confidence in competition, it undermined trust in the judging system, but most of all it diminished figure skating in the sporting world. Maybe if the ISU had tried to root out the bad apples then, it wouldn't have blown up in their face in 2002. And it was a judge that cheated, not S&P. People will always have their personal preferences, but all that stuff that went on meant B&K never really got to compete on a level playing field or show us if they indeed could have won some of those big competitions. So if SC or fans don't appear to be providing the kind of support to V&M that B&K got, well I'm sure they learned that it would only make things worse. And I worry for V&M because of the fact that they consistently aren't getting the GOE marks, and I can see on the various boards that there's a concerted effort to diminish their skating after every competition, such as the constant 'he messed up his twizzle' or 'she nearly took Scott out with her twizzle'. Those appear to me to be staged remarks to define the narrative before the discussion has even begun. And the promotion of D&W's skills as perfect, flawless even when it isn't and the sky high marks. I particularly don't like that some of it's coming from the USFSA. IMO the dangerous politicking is on the rise again.
Just my opinion here - I don't think the USFSA is as politicking as much for Meryl and Charlie as much as you all are making it out to me - the promotion, the interviews, etc.
Over the course of this season in particular, I think they have been promoting Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold A TON more in fact. USFSA has been looking for that ladies star that they've been lacking since the days of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen and are desperately promoting both of them, since the ladies are the discipline is the "glamour" discipline and bring in the ratings. From the coverage of US Nationals, Gracie got the big NBC fluff piece and Ashley got the largest picture on the promotional poster. D/W would've been dropped like hot cakes if Ashley or Gracie medalled this year at Worlds and no doubt Ashley and Gracie are going promoted a lot more than D/W going into Sochi.
For the record I wasn't implying that all these skaters deserved defending and I certainly haven't defended them all. I just know the media has gone to bat for them (with the exception of maybe Jeff, and not so much Patrick but time will tell) and I know what the perception is out there of some, that Canada seems to 'complain' a lot and it pains me that we may have to go through this again, even though as you say for V/M I'd do it all day every day. That's why I was hoping some 'outsiders' would jump on board. As I said in V/M case I never thought it would ever come to this, and no they don't belong on some list I was just using it as how it may be perceived by some 'here we go again Canada?' They are to damn brilliant and shouldn't need defending, look at them judges! It certainly is more than fandom, it's defending what's good for this sport. Sorry if I didn't make that clear and I hope I am now.
Actually, I think this past season, the US DID politic a great deal, especially compared to other years, for D/W because they were likely their only real shot at a medal. And most of the comments coming from that PR animal were rather sly ones. None of this pointing a finger and coming right out and saying what you mean -- like Pasha with B/K for instance. No, it was what I would call "side-ways" talking. It's a term I used with some of my family when they want something but instead of coming right out and saying what they mean, they just sorta hint and I'm supposed to pick up on it. Fortunately for me, I've gotten used to their "short-handed" talk. To me, this is precisely what took place -- hints and innuendo.
For instance, D/W would never say something like "we wuz robbed, we're the rightful winners". Instead they come up with "we had many fans come up and tell us that they felt we were the winners". One tells you like it is, the other insinuates. And it was that way for most of the season. Tessa had to stop with a cramp at 4CC, as well all know. So when asked how she is, she replies that she's fine, it was just a cramp, something temporary, likely caused by over training. A straightforward answer! How was all that interpreted by US media and the uber D/W fans around here?
We know the answer to that question don't we -- hey Davey boy? The insinuations that they stopped:
1) they needed a rest so they could then beat D/W. Puhlease!
2) there was no injury, they just wanted a break
3) looks mighty suspicious that they needed a break yet AGAIN; didn't that happen before when they were afraid of losing to D/W.
Then, even after Tessa tells us that she's OK, more speculation that
1) it was faked all along
2) it was more than just a cramp and she's still not recovered.
What is the response from the D/W camp and their media coverage -- we're healthy and we've never felt better and our training is going extremely well (or words to that effect), we're ready for Worlds. Oh yeah, I forgot about the we have a newfoundconnection and it shows in our skating and off the ice too. Hmmm, yeah, whatever.
And then what really got my eyes rolling -- the article in a fricking CANADIAN local paper about Meryl's Canadian family and her ties to the local area (aka near London, but actually closer to where I live). I couldn't believe my eyes. A full page about Meryl and her Canadian ties. Give.me.a.break. Yeah, there were a number of articles in the same rag about V/M but was there any articles about anyone else who apparently has "family" ties that are Canadian. NOPE. Were there any articles solely about the main rival of one of our gold medal contenders who were from another country -- like something about Dai or Fernandez or Hanyu compared to Chan. NOPE. So why the hell was there one about D/W? If that isn't a form of politicking, then I'd sincerely like to know what is.
Like it said, very little was said directly from the inner circles but there sure was a lot of lip flapping going on by the U.S. media.
I don't think he/she has changed his/her tune on the "personal" stuff and there will be lots more to come on that, I am sure. However, he/she clearly knows ice-dance. Please don't hate me for saying this but he/she is doing a comparison including gifs of the 2 teams and he/she is bang on. In the comments section there is a lot of opinion and analysis of all aspects of ice-dance and it is all accurate. I hate the premise of that blog but I too go there to snoop. I hope you guys don't kick me out......
But some of it was direct, wasn't it?
Wasn't there an article about the lack of connection between V&M and something about them not having the best lines?
You know what, there might have been but there was just so much of it out there that I wouldn't want to say yes and then have some D/W uber come in here, read it and then go post in the D/W thread that not only are we wrong about the USFSA politicking for D/W, but we're actually wrong about anything we say negative about them. We're just a bunch of whiners, busily wringing our hands over the fact that our team lost - to a better one. HA!
I think what you are saying about what USFSA does and does not say is being blown way out of proportion. All of the comments said about negative comments Tessa's leg cramp were from fans with an opinion, not from sports journalists. Dave ISN'T a member of the US media or journalist - he's simply a fan with a figure skating blog who can speculate or say whatever he wants. None of the US media even discuss figure skating with the exception of Phil Hersh, who if you read his tweets or articles about skating, know that he could care less about D/W, because the US wants a female star so he's promotes Gracie Gold quite a bit and brings up every negative about all the other ladies or men.
D/W are extremely-media trained, almost to the point where I expect stock answers from them and comments from them are the same all the time. That answer D/W gave at their pre-Worlds interview - "We're healthy and strong. We're training extremely hard and it's going well. We're ready to give it our all," is practically the same answer they've given at every pre-Worlds interview since they've come through the senior ranks. If you were to go back to those articles, I think you'll see that's been the case. I don't see how that's backhanded comments towards Tessa and Scott, unless someone really, really wants to stretch beyond their wildest imaginations.
It was this article from the USFSA's Icenetwork.com.
So many great discussions you guys
I just want to chime in on the reusing old element discussion. If V/M can handle it I definitely wish they still up their ante and churn out new elements and new lifts for next year. Then oone of two things may happen:
1) D/W still use more or less the same elements for what now, six years in a row? This is great weapon for politiking (we just gotta find a way to convince the frustrating SC to step it up). There have already been many opinions that Notre Dame is basically PotO. If supposedly they want to keep this #newfoundconnection would it translate well into other musical themes? If they skate again to a powerful music full of O faces and fake angst would the judges be finally bored with them? Perhaps.
2) D/W also bring new elements, and then we can see how well they adjust to their training and programs. V/M and D/W would be more on equal grounds in terms of preparedness and will really test D/W in a situation that I will bank on V/M any day of the week even with the apparent judging bias. Which also brings out my speculation that why they changed from La Strada to DF and supposedly Sinatra to Notre Dame...
On the other hand both V/M and D/W both recycle elements, which I would hate to see because, well this is going to sound really bad but with all due respect to D/W, I don't want V/M stoop to D/W's level as elite ice dance competitors. And this would give even more power for more politking and hearsay against V/M.
"Hey look Tessa is probably still in pain and couldn't train as much so they have to reuse elements"
"ANOTHER romantic sappy program from V/M? One trick pony"
You get the jist.
I think a ballet would be the perfect choice for V/M next year, playing up Tessa's dancing strength and the Olympics being in Russia.
d/w werent crisp at all in their sd. the judges were very generous to give them a lvl 3 instead of a level 2 because their first pattern looked like shit.
in addition their programs are so cookie cutter.
music from the movie's ost?
idk about you but i'm making sure im bring vocal
they try too hard when it comes to trying to connect with eachother
for example: http://24.media.tumblr.com/31b6874f94c5a599b63d8e79cf8599e9/tumblr_mjw3g4vGGh1qav07ko3_500.gif
oh god LMAO i just say a post on tumblr that said almost the exact thing you said.
like if they think v/m arent exciting or too slow, maybe they should be watching speed skating instead of ice dance
wow talk about taking advantage of V/M'S injury and adding salt to the wound
what shit 'friends' d/w are to v/m
i think it is
its just said in a really subtle way
Or their Latin FD music which was stolen by like 10 teams the next season lol
dont forget the twizzles!
Oh, I remember the twizzles! Didn't two teams try to do the circular twizzles too?
Speaking of elements I wish they recycled, those twizzles are perhaps top of my list together with the serpentine lift on Pink Floyd.
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