Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Great question, tapper! I am curious t hear your thoughts, because i know you yourself are a dancer.

    I absolutely adored their Funny Face FD, and this is one of my favourite moments from it. During intimate moments like this they seem to freeze time. Their musicality and connection even comes through in these two seconds. Their free legs come down at exactly the same time in exactly the same manner, perfectly capturing the music ( which unfortunately you cannot hear here because it is a gif, but i know this from watching it a million times on my dvr). They have an innate connection to the music.

    http://ohyeahvirtuemoirgifs.tumblr.com/post/14543545583

    I wish I could find a gif of the part when S'Wonderful comes in and they do the three turns around each other and extend their free legs. Such a beautiful moment.

    Also, thanks for sharing, figuristka. It is really cool to hear from another ice dancer:)
  2. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    WTH? What is wrong with that indeed? What world do these 'complainers' live in? Kaetlyn don't mind why should they? Oh brother!
  3. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Some people thought it was inappropriate to shoot a skater in such a position from this angle, especially given her age. I can understand why some people would feel that way, especially if they are not very familiar with figure skating. But Kaetlyn doesn't seem to be bothered by it.

    Also, thanks for posting those links, Shay!
  4. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    It's probably a pic of the last lift lol. Speaking of pictures look at Tessa's face in this one! And this one.
    Please do!
    No problem Melissa.
  5. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    Was it taken from 2011 Canadian Nats when Tess and Scott were sitting out and Crone /Poirier became Champs?
  6. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    I never consider V&M skating pointless, nor will I ever give up on them getting a second gold medal. It is too soon for that. I am so glad they are staying another year instead of retiring. I can't wait!
  7. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, to me it isn't pointless either. It's as Kurt Browning once said: they might not always win, but we do. They are always going to go for art first and it might not always pay off, but those programs stay with you regardless. The quality of their skating and characterization will never disappoint you. Sure, it can be frustrating when judges aren't appreciative enough, but we are. I am not going to ask them to quit just because they haven't been rewarded for a masterful program. I think they know many people received the program more than well and I think they should be proud for the risks they have taken and the themes they have tackled over the years. See the transformation, for instance. Take a look at a picture of Tessa from the Valse Triste days and then compare it to her Carmen. Look at her Mahler and then at her Latin character, etc. So while others might take this versatility for granted, why should we? I am very thankful to live in the same era as these magnificent artists.
  8. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    We do always win, even when they don't. I wouldn't trade a second of their magnificent skating for a medal, or a judges score. If they can't, or don't wanna see what's right in front of them it's their/and the sports loss. Me, I'll just enjoy. I can't wait to see what they will come up with next and it is their last season:(I'd watch them skate forever even if they never medalled again. How many skaters/performancs over the years have you loved that the judges completely overlook? I can think of many. In the end it's all about making themselves proud, knowing who they are, all they've accomplished and enjoying what they do, no regrets, they can't control anything else. They are loved and appreciated by fans, fellow competitors, former skaters, coaches, commentators etc. Nothing that happens this season is gonna change that if anything it will solidify their status even more. I can't wait!
  9. figuristka

    figuristka New Member

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    Thanks Bournekraatzfan. Haven't really skated for 10yrs but would love to get back to doing some compulsory dances. I find V/M inspiring.

    Since Tessa and Scott did their "hallelujah" in the gala. Took a bit magic away from me seeing it so many times. Any suggestions for a new exhibition program? One music i enjoyed was "kissing you" and its was kindly uploaded for me here sometime many months ago http://compulsorydances.blogspot.ca/2012/04/new-exhibition.html. I love watching them and playing different music to see what would suit.
  10. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    While I respect the comments of Kurt Browning and those who agree with him, it makes me want to scream.

    I have never seen any other team treated quite like V&M have been treated. Yes, we win by getting to see the almost otherwordly skating skills Tessa and Scott possess and the creativity and how they are trying to push the sport. But. Why it is okay, why do people seem to think it's okay that V&M aren't not being marked properly as long as we get to see them skate? I don't want to use the word pointless but I see where gerbil is coming from.

    Tessa and Scott have said they want to push the sport but they have also stated they want to win. If they did not care about winning they would have retired after Vancouver or at least after last season so they could at least have gone out on top. I have no doubt they would be in demand as performers/exhibition skaters for both U.S. and Canadian SOI, the Disson shows and the shows in Europe and Russia. There they could create artistic masterpieces without being hampered by having to fit their vision into a CoP styled program.

    All the changes and overtraining was because they want to push the sport and themselves but also wanted that gold medal. I've seen some photos of Tessa and Scott at the awards ceremony and those were not the faces of a team content to have treated us to one of the best artistic pieces in recent memory, medals be damned.

    This is a competition but with V&M people seem to have gotten to the point that it seems okay that V&M are being put through the wringer. I remember when Kurt made that comment; I felt at that point that he knew something we don't. Perhaps it's a good thing V&M were marked so far back in the SD; I agree with gerbil that even two performances on the level of the Carmen FD Saturday would still have come in second. I feel like because V&M's competition is an American team no one is willing to say anything. Because Americans of course wouldn't play politics.

    And I'm not quite seeing how Marina wants what is best for V&M. In icedance it's always been just as much about what takes place off the ice as what takes place on the ice. Marina has been around long enough to know that. Whether it is based in fact or just superstition, we've seen in the past teams (and even singles skaters) keep injuries or illnesses quiet for fear the judges would use that against them. Marina isn't stupid; for her to talk about Tessa's weaknesses was something we usually don't see a coach do. At least not during a competition and not while a team she was trying to help win a title was still in the thick of things.

    I really do appreciate being able to witness a team like V&M. Honestly, I do. It's been a long time since we've had a generational team the likes of Tessa and Scott but it's not okay to watch them struggle because they are at a loss as to what more to do to get the marks they should be getting. Why is it because it's V&M, we need to trade one thing (fair marks) for another (technically and artistically brilliant programs). Why is it with V&M, those two things seem to now be mutually exclusive?

    While I disagree that D&W's FD's are masterpieces and that they deserved to win Worlds last season, their fans say otherwise. And while I don't read the D&W thread, I've seen comments in other threads. Those fans were livid and spoke up. They weren't happy just to have witnessed what they thought were great programs and the medals didn't matter. The same for the other teams who people have perceived as ripped off. W&P last season had a FD that really touched people and while those folks enjoyed that FD, again they spoke out against what they felt was an unfair placement at Worlds. Only V&M and their fans seem to be forced to throw in the towel in a way and say placements don't matter as long as we get to see them skate.

    Even with DelShoes people spoke up about them getting shafted. I never heard people say that in the end we should just be happy that we got to witness Frida, The Untouchables, The Piano etc. so in the end it didn't matter that Isabelle and Olivier were marked down and should have at least two more world medals than they do.

    Sorry for the negativity but it seems even Skate Canada seems blase about their own team. It bothered me when Kurt said that. I just feel that Tessa and Scott have been sacrified by Skate Canada or at the very least they don't have their federations full support. Even their coach whom they seem very loyal two seems to undermine them.

    Okay maybe it's time I focus on fluff. Maybe I need a dose of Satuday nights Carmen performance and Scott's coaching of Tessa.

    Hoping next season sees a change.
  11. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    Hi Carmen, great post!

    I can only speak for myself when I say I am happy to see Tessa and Scott compete despite at the same time not seeing them getting the marks the deserve. I have no control over the judges, I have zero influence in the skating world because I'm just an uber fan. I have also been vocal here and in other threads on FSU that I will forever not understand why D/W gets better PCS than V/M. The only only only time I agree with the higher mark is for their SD choreography where I do think Giselle is a slight better choreographed dance than Waltz Must Go On. I think it's a therapeutic thing as a V/M uber to tell myself that be happy, witness the magnificence of Tessa and Scott for another year.

    As for other fans, I think it's also a group support mentality here where we console each other on their loss. I don't think fans here would say such a thing in competition pbp thread or any other thread where discussions include those outside of the uber circle and would defend V/M if their legacy and performances are ever questioned.

    However I do agree with you that those in power or have any slight influence should NOT just say let's be happy with Tessa and Scott having another go at the Olympics. Especially Skate Canada should fight tooth and nails for them to get the PCS they deserve. Same thing as Kurt Browning, who may not hold a position at the ISU but being a former Champ there are people in the sport paying attention to what he has to say. As for Marina... I really don't know what to say about her. I really appreciate what she's done with Tessa and Scott and loved every piece of choreography she gave them. I'm still inclined to believe her comments during Worlds were a result of circumstance rather than playing favorites. She shouldn't say anything until the end of the competition I agree but I'm not sure if it's because she is trying to sabotage Tessa. Had Meryl changed a heavier skirt and messed up her twizzles, would Marina consciously shut up and say nothing to protect them during the competition? I'm not so sure...
  12. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    Thanks walei and your response sheds a little light on those "we should just be happy..." type comments. I do suppose that is a healthier attitude to take. It is true that myself (and others) being disgusted and angry on behalf Tessa and Scott is doing little to change what the judges are inclined to do as we are just fans. I think maybe over time I might be able to take that view but everytime I watched Carmen the other day I would alternate with my reactions.

    Yes, V&M were on fire and each competition/each season they add yet another layer to what it is they already do so well. Every year I'm bowled over by just how good these two are but at the start of the new season when they return from summer training they seem to get that much better. V&M have advanced their skating and icedance in general so much that this seasons V&M would trounce 09/10 and even 11/12 Funny Face V&M. And I'm betting that judging aside, next seasons V&M would be able to defeat this seasons V&M as well if you know what I mean. Watching V&M from season to season you wouldn't think there is room for them to improve much more than they have but they do.

    OTOH, watching what Tessa and Scott put out there on the ice then feeling the judges just ignored what we all saw (people in the skating world saw what we saw as well) and didn't even bother marking what happened on the ice makes me sad and disgusted. At the beginning of the season when Carmen debuted many of us did say, if Carmen can't get the job done then what will? I haven't given up totally but this pattern has been in place for most of this quadrennial.

    I'm hoping V&M continue to push themselves artistically (they have said they would) but I also hope they lighten up a little on the difficulty. It's possible to create an artistic piece while dialing back on packing the program wall to wall with footwork and difficult transitions. I'm not convinced that had anything to do with their marks but V&M can't have another season (especially an Olympic season) trying to master all the difficulty within their programs. They need a balance between artistical and technical difficulty and they need to if not be completely polished at the beginning of the season they need a program that doesn't take as long to build and peak.

    That is one of the things I just don't understand. Every federation has played politics in the past but I've never seen any federation seem to ignore/give up on a team who are medal contenders in general but definitely not gold medal contenders. Who seems to openly not support a team who can bring them a gold medal?

    Maybe Marina didn't mean any harm but her years in the sport coaching and providing choreography for some pretty big names makes me not so quick to give her the benefit of the doubt. She truely should know better. People were talking/guessing about Tessa anyway but her confirming that Tessa was having issues did not help the situation at all.

    Fortunately for D&W, they seldom seem to make really huge mistakes (ie outright falls, missed lifts) so ITA I'm not sure how Marina would react if they were in a similar situation.
  13. rvi5

    rvi5 New Member

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    Photo of V/M in yesterday's "24 hours" commuter newspaper.

    -Select the calendar option.
    -Choose March 18th.
    -Click on top right corner of page until you get to page 20.

    http://eedition.toronto.24hrs.ca/epaper/viewer.aspx


    Figure Skating is finally getting some publicity in the various newspapers within Canada due to Worlds. So far, I have seen articles and photos of V/M, Kaetlyn, D/R, and Patrick. There have also been ads promoting the Worlds competition.
  14. m_chenning

    m_chenning New Member

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    As for 2010, I like this one olympics profile. It was their dream, goal, they were so young but sharp-cut in their craft. And that tango on the floor. :swoon: . And I like that "Not shy anymore" titel.

    Not shy- exactly :D
  15. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    While nothing can ever take away my appreciation of their skating and the beauty of their programs, yes, their results this year have been a huge, huge disappointment. I can clearly separate these two aspects of my fandom. What happened over the course of this season, and no, I'm not picking on DW, just making the obvious comparison, which clearly the perception was that early on VM had the superior program, and slowly that changed. Was it politicking? Are speed and consistency really the primary "fundamentals" which the judges place the most importance on? When I hear that DW project their "passion to win" in their FD, as a reason to justify their newfoundconnection, my first thought is how is this representing the emotion of the program? Is the theme of ND about winning? Surely the artistic aspects of anyprogram are much more intricate and complex.

    While I don't know the answers to these questions, what I do know is that the team around VM first and foremost have to figure out how to adjust their training regimen so that their programs have more polish at the begining of the season. We all hear that they develop their programs throughout the season, but that is putting them at a disadvantage in building their momentum, in comparison to DW who show up with essentially the same well practiced elements. The second point is that they really need programs which combine all of their exquisite lines and carriage and have a "perceived" element of more speed. And thirdly, they don't need a coach who makes statements about their confidence and unaddressed costume issues which impact on their skating.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
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  16. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Its sport, so sometime you win, sometine you lose. I think this what Kurt want to say.
    I dont know - is this good for sport to made scandal?
    I know for sure - before 2010 OG at seminars V-M was shown to judges at judging meetings.
    Now they show D-W, like an example of perfect ice dancers. So Kurt know about this, he know about Patrick gold. Patrick and Lysacheck helped T-S in Vancouver, so maybe this time T-S helped Patrick?
    about Carmen (i mean some positive posts will be good)/
    And guys, i think it will be good, if you express your opinion on ISU fscebook page. I know, maybe they didnt read it, but who knows, maybe they will pay attention to posts about ice dance must go more in dance direction and all what you think

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8.255007411190874&type=1&theater&notif_t=like
  17. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I think it was definitely politicking. The discourse over which program was better changed when one program got overscored and the other undermarked. People cited the scores as evidence of which program was better, ignoring the fact that the scoring of the two teams had been manipulated to give a desired political result.

    I loved your bit about the performance/connection side of things.

    Again, coming back to myself, this newfoundconnection spiel about D/W is driving me crazy because they're trying to definte connection as chemistry and bond not what it really is in terms of dancing/ice dancing. Forcing yourself to stare sappily into someones eyes or spouting platitudes in the press is not what connection is in dance. To quote myself:

    Connection on ice is empirically about movement. D/W are either confusing what on-ice connection is with an off-ice bond/relationship or they're trying to reframe on-ice connection to be what an off-ice bond is. In the press this season, including one recent article that reads much like that one V/M article last spring during CSOI talking about their bond, when D/W have talked about their newfoundconnection it's always done in terms that apply off-ice. They try to claim that they're like a married couple. They try to say that they're just as bonded and have the same type of off-ice relationship as V/M have. They never talk about how this newfoundconnection has manifested in their actual skating. They can't because their on-ice connection hasn't changed one iota. Everything they do has to be choreographed. They can't make adjustments on a per-performance basis like V/M can (or P/B, or B/A could, or a whole host of other teams can/could.). D/W may put on an act now, trying to mimic V/M in superficial ways, but it doesn't change the fact that they still can't move, interact, react, and make adjustment in real-time or do the same kinds of complex, interdependent moves that other teams, especially V/M, do.

    It pains me, but yes. They're unfortunately going to have to dial back on their difficulty next season. It's not because they're not capable of it, it's just they don't have the luxury of being able to have new elements and spend the season perfecting them when they're skating against a team that's more or less done the same elements for 5 seasons now. That in and of itself is sickening. It's supposed to be the kiss of death to reuse the same program in ice dance. In the past, great emphasis was put on ALL of the teams coming out and doing something new each year. New elements, new moves. It was what you had to do to win. Everyone was in the same boat though--everyone was still learning their new moves and elements at the beginning of the season and perfecting them over the year. It was rewarded and encouraged. Now, you try something new to your own detriment.

    The speed thing bugs me as well because V/M are just as fast and powerful but it's not perceived as such due to D/W's smoke-and-mirrors. Watch their stroking. D/W have to take two strokes to every 1 that V/M take. D/W also lack the ability to build speed from nothing (like V/M do) and the ability to arrest and change momentum the way V/M can. D/W have to go full out, all of the time.

    ITA on a new coaching situation. V/M talked at length in their book how important it was to keep Tessa's leg issues hidden during the 09-10 season. Beyond that situation, hiding injuries in ice dance has been done for years for the reason of not wanting to show the judges weakness. Yes, V/M were in a hole (that they shouldn't have been in and wouldn't have been in if D/W had been marked properly), but the FD should have been a new day and a chance to rally (if the judging had been fair). It didn't need to be out there before the FD that Tessa is having confidence issues because the judges were just going to be looking for it. Also, it didn't need to be out there for next season because apparantly unlike the other 3 disciplines, each new competetion isn't a blank slate. Instead, every problem you've held in the past is held against you. Having confidence issues in Spring 2013, but you work through it over the summer? Too bad. We're still going to stick it to you. Botched a lift in the first competetion of the season? Too bad. We'll be holding this against you all year.
  18. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    Yes-being able to show innovation and emotion with a lot of speed is how I see it thus far. I think D/W are incredible technically. I also think they have plenty of artistry. I think V/M are incredible artistically. I think they do very very well technically too. Look---you all may not like me but I have to say this: I am worried that they are moving away from romance. I wasn't wild about "Carmen"----and it was not V/M's fault. I'm just so tired of seeing certain pieces used over and over again. God knows that they tried to breath some freshness into the piece. Romance is their wheelhouse: No one does it better---I'm not sure anyone in history ever did it better. In an Olympic year why move away from that? I know they want to stretch but there are real risks doing this in an Olympic year. And again I'm sorry to say this on an uber thread but D/W are worthy competition. Right now I'm watching their programs over and over again because of their clean precision and -as Simon says--their crispness. It is a pleasure to see that unison. I want a piece of music not so well known for V/M so that when we hear it the rest of our lives we won't remember the title: It will simply be Tessa and Scott's song. And I want it to be romantic. I'm going to leave now for awhile. I'm not here to cause trouble--I like V/M a great deal and am worried. I'm sure in time I'll irritate the D/W ubers too. (Retreating to the Love Thread if I can find it.)
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  19. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Hope no. VM must did something new, mature. So all will remember there FD and will not remeber who won this competition.
    And of couse i dont think D-W are OGM already. V-M - are. So all could happened. VM will have more time, hope will not have show in August. And what i loveaout this two - when D-W all the time talking Marina said them to do this FD, or this SD, on doing this elements, V-M have Tessa who have her own ideas, her own style.
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think what some people feel is that they can achieve that crispness because they don't have as many transitions, their program has a weird construction (three lifts at the end), and many of their elements are old, so of course it's easier to be crisp. That would contribute to a high PE score (though V&M's carriage helps them a lot there). OTOH, V&M are moving their bodies in a completely different way this year, they have very complicated new elements, they have very little setup time for some of them (which works for them because they can set it up in 1-2 strokes), and in theory these things are supposed to offset D&W's crispness by way of higher TR, CC, SS. However, the judges are marking only on an overall basis where D&W's speed/crispness gives them a 9.96 for CC. As V&M fans we are left feeling like was that beautiful Carmen program worth it? They worked so hard to do interesting new elements that really suited the music, but if they didn't get enough credit, should they have just done something easier? Maybe if they didn't spend time this season working on lifts and choreography, they could've gotten all level 4 step sequences and won. As in ice dance fan, I don't want to see that. I want variety.
    ITA with the first sentence. Like I always said, when we mention Carmina Burana, Bolero, or Memorial every ice dance fan knows exactly what we mean. I want that for V&M. I don't care whether it's romantic or not though.

    I don't think you have to leave. :) The discussion is interesting and you were respectful to V&M.
  21. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    now that v/m is kinda out of the limelight, hopefully the russian federation will be politicking against D/W while the USFSA will be politiking against the russians, ignoring v/m. meanwhile V/M will rise to the top like a phoenix rising from the ashes:p

    even though its an atrocity to the sport that d/w won, we should be thankful that they won at the same time because that takes the pressure off of v/m
  22. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  23. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    also guys what do you think about v/m dancing to wagner's liebestod/tristan and isolde? i've seen so many posts saying that they should dance to that
  24. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    When people say Mahler, what other skaters would people be thinking about?

    Or Funny Face? Heh.

    I'm pretty confident that Marina will choose a classical piece that is romantic, but probably not as ethereal as Mahler.
  25. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    ITA Cherub. I would add, like a lot of things, D/W's crispness is partly illusion. The fact that they don't hold their lines and moves or use much in the way of sustained movements, it makes them look more crisp, but what V/M are doing is actually harder. I think, for the record, that once V/M learn their new moves, their execution is just as crisp. Besides, there's more to exectuion than crispness. There is cleanliness as well, and V/M are far, far cleaner in their execution.

    And, yes, the fact that many of D/W's elements are so old, the fact that they have fewer transitions, and that their program construction is odd (e.g., three lifts in a row at the end) makes things a lot easier on them.

    I also agree with wanting them to have something that's just theirs. There is Mahler, but a lot of people also associate that with G/G since Katia did the piece after Sergei's death. Like you, I also don't care if it's romantic or what genre it's from.
  26. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Hip-hip Chin-chin :D
    I hope Scott know there muisc and like he said- this will be something interesting and soemthing they didnt made before
  27. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

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    I think they're doing a ballet. The concept might be interesting though
  28. volunteer

    volunteer Member

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    I want to make a point about descriptors such as "crispness" and "clean precision". For me, the quality of crispness in a skating program relates more to the music and the style of the skater - quick, staccato movements, quick changes of position, for example as in a march. This applies to the majority of DW's programs, but the downside is that they don't finish their movements, attention to head position, toe point and arm position are weaker. When I look at VM's skating, I would not describe them as "crisp", but more as "precise" they don't have an overabundance of rapid movements succession, every move is deliberate, they create shapes. Clean precision is more of a quality I see in VM, but not as a complete package in DW.
    I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself clearly, it's really not a case of semantics, I'm sure one of you more eloquent posters can elaborate.
    btw, love your post gerbil
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  29. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Love the idea of a ballet.

    In terms of politicking, does the Russian Fed really believe their teams have a chance at anything above a bronze? I think their decisions to favour D&W or V&M will come down to which team on top would hurt them less in the team event. Under those circumstances, an American on top of the dance portion would still allow the Russians to win gold. If V&M (along with Chan) were on top, a team gold for Russia would be extremely unlikely.
  30. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    They already have bronze and B-S show such a big progress this season.
    And with USA help they even culd have silver, when Chan will have gold and all are happy. Maybe Canada wish gold at OG Team competitions.
  31. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    No! You did a fabulous job expressing yourself. I totally get what you're saying and agree. D/W move fast, but like you say, that comes at the expense of finishing off their moves in their case (you can move fast and finish your moves off--I'm sure we'll see that in V/M's SD next year). I argue that what V/M do is harder. I think it's much harder to hold a move than to move quickly. Lifting your leg up and immediately setting your leg back down is far easier than lifting your leg and holding that position for an extended amount of time.

    Aw, thanks. I'm glad you liked the post. :)
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
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  32. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    What do you think about Anna Karenina?
  33. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    You also have to factor in pairs and ladies when thinking about the team event, and I actually think it's going to be hard to figure out until closer to time who's stronger on paper and what would be the best strategy...
  34. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    Just want to clarify on my post from yesterday, because I think I was just feeling 'let down' and maybe 'sentimenal' at that time, that while I'm happy to see V/M skate always no matter what. I do care about the result, I do care that they are being shafted but sometimes I get so tired of it. I hoped this judging system was better and I don't know right now if it's the judging system, the judges themselves, the politics etc. probably all of those things, that are producing these results. Maybe being Canadian to I just wish we didn't have to go down this road, what seems like all the time. From B&K, S&P, Elvis, Patrick, Jeff, seems like we always have to defend their reputations and fight for what we feel they deserve. We shouldn't always have to fight, and with V/M I never thought we'd have to they are that good and have done NOTHING to deserve this. I don't know if the media & SC are reluctant to do or say anything because D/W are American and because they train with them day in, day out. They don't want to cause trouble ? Or maybe, like me they get tired of being labelled a'whiner' or a 'flag waver' just because I want to defend what I see as unjust. I don't know but I truly don't see anything happening unless V/M start to really get dropped next season, as in 'now competing for silver and bronze' which I don't see happening. Maybe some 'outside' voices will start speaking up and at least the media may jump on board before Sochi, if need be, but I just don't see that either. I'm frustrated, angry and disappointed...again. D/W are talented, I like them but this is not fair. So in the end I will continue to defend them and what I feel they rightfully deserve , not that it matters much to anyone, but I also just want to enjoy them for as long as they'll let us and I want them to be happy. Judges and politics will do whatever they want anyways so, but I'm not giving up nor am I content to just sit by and let them get beaten down again.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
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  35. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Well here's a few thoughts to "chew" on. IF we want V/M to come out of the gate in the next season more ready, they should

    1) recycle a number of their lifts. After all, there would be muscle memory and they wouldn't have to learn them again
    2) take speed skating lessons to learn how to do short, choppy steps and show the judges just how "fast" they are travelling
    3) Scott needs to grow his hair long, dye it blond and make it curly so he has "magical hair"
    4) Tessa needs to lose weight cause we can't have her looking fit; she needs to look "ethereal"
    5) we need not just Canadian media, but the entire world (minus the U.S.) to speak to how good V/M are and how deserving they are of winning gold in Sochi and how hard they work and train. Oh yeah, and have articles about Tessa's having family links to people in Russia. Get the Canadian PR machine working OT, starting right now. Oh yeah, and we should have continual articles about how so many fans came up to V/M saying that they should have won, well at least the FD.

    Have I covered everything? OK, now you guys know I'm just teasing with that list, right? Tongue planted firmly in cheek and all!

    However, I think there's a couple things there that they could look at doing if they are serious about winning next season instead of just leaving a legacy.
    First, stop with the crazy and all brand new lifts (although that would make me sad cause that's part of what I look forward to seeing). Use a couple from the past few years. Works for D/W, why shouldn't V/M do likewise? It would mean less new things to learn.
    Also, I think Skate Canada needs to "politik" better with the media -- especially once the GP season begins. They need to talk up V/M, create hype and optimism. Get reporters of sports - not just figure skating one - on board.
    Change coaches. Yeah, I know they likely won't do such a thing, but it bothers me a great deal that all the things that have made V/M so successful are being copied by their training mates. They need to be in an environment where that kind of thing won't be happening. I know, next to impossible that such would happen, but I can still wish.
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  36. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Carmen, I do not disagree. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I am not happy about the way the season went, I think V-M deserved better. They had outstanding material that, for some reason, was never truly embraced by the judges. On that I agree with you completely.

    Now, that is one thing. My personal enjoyment of both programs is another. My happiness has nothing to do with their results, I am not asking anyone to feel happy because they lost. I am saying that I am glad that they decided to be ambitious and I am thankful to them for giving us these two incredible programs this season because I, as a fan of the sport, can appreciate what they tried to and, yes, succeeded to do.

    Of course it is unfair that two mistakes on the short dance saw them more than three points behind. That was not necessary and the fact that most of the gap came from GOE and PCS is even more infuriating, I understand that. Of course it is not fair that, again, the subjective marks were the difference in the free dance.

    It is not that V-M’s programs need to be polished since the very beginning, they never are! And, hey, that’s logical: they like to work their programs because most of their material is new. My problem is that the biggest effort isn’t being rewarded. Let me explain: anyone who competes at a high level is a hard worker, but not all hard workers make the same effort, correct? Now, Carmen and The Waltz Goes On were VERY difficult programs structurally speaking. If you create a program from scratch with new lifts and steps, that is going to take a while to perfect. Both programs were pretty much set by Nationals. The USFSA gave monster scores to D-W; Skate Canada asked V-M to work on a few things. Did that send a message? I wonder. But what happened next makes me think V-M were on track to win, they had a marvelous first skate a 4CC. They had momentum there, beating D-W in the short dance and then Tessa’s injury happened. That, I think, gave the judges the perfect out. Looking back, maybe Pani was right and they shouldn’t have made that trip, maybe they should’ve stayed home. I don’t know. My point is that momentum was lost after Four Continents. I, naively perhaps, thought the judges weren’t going to let that affect their perception of their programs at Worlds, but it did and that is unacceptable. I can’t, for the life of me, find a 3.25-point between the Waltz Goes On and Giselle. Not when D-W didn’t even level 4 the entire thing. It was, indeed, a cleaner skate, but it was not perfect. V-M’s skate wasn’t as terrible as the numbers imply. So, you see, there are little details that do not quite add up because most fall on the subjective marks.

    When V-M lost Worlds in 2011, you could see where and how they lost it. I could see, even having won the short dance, what their Latin program lacked on the ice and on the marks. I know others thought they should’ve won, but I didn’t, I thought that result was fair and I was okay with it. Here I do not get precisely where it is that they lost it.

    But not even that disappointment will make me think that their efforts were pointless or aimless. I got those programs. And, sure, I am a nobody in the figure skating world, my opinion doesn’t really change anything, but still, I truly did appreciate the programs and I am happy they took those risks.
  37. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    First, Carmen, I think this is one of the best posts I've ever read.

    That's what I keep coming back to. V/M are a once-in-a-generation sort of team and we are so very lucky that they came along. It is wonderful we've gotten to see and enjoy all that they do, BUT our enjoyment of what they do does NOT make it ok that they're not being marked properly in relation to D/W. It is never ok when the marking is not correct, no matter how much you still enjoy your team. For me, it makes it hard to enjoy what I'm watching when I'm stewing over the judging.

    This. V/M may be artists but they are athletes and VERY competitive people at that. The pro-circuit isn't what it used to be, but V/M would have been in high demend for shows across the globe, partiuclarly in Russia where they are adored. They would have been free to just be artists. However, here they are still competing. They're still competing because they want to win. They've said that they want to win. Also, like you said, in those pictures from the medal ceremonies, V/M's faces weren't those of people who were happy with being artists, regardless of the color of the medal. They looked down, disappointed, etc.

    And I'm not quite seeing how Marina wants what is best for V&M. In icedance it's always been just as much about what takes place off the ice as what takes place on the ice. Marina has been around long enough to know that. Whether it is based in fact or just superstition, we've seen in the past teams (and even singles skaters) keep injuries or illnesses quiet for fear the judges would use that against them. Marina isn't stupid; for her to talk about Tessa's weaknesses was something we usually don't see a coach do. At least not during a competition and not while a team she was trying to help win a title was still in the thick of things.
  38. Alixana

    Alixana recovering Oly-holic

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    V&M need to leave now. There's no way one coach can give their time and attention equally to competitors like these two (and stay neutral at the same time). Sorry, I know this has been said many times, but I needed to get it off my chest :lol:
  39. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    She will say - its not me who give marks to you, you are both may childrens. Its all bad judges did.
  40. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think they are realists at the end of the day, so no.

    That's an excellent point. Hadn't thought of that. Not that I'm convinced that the Russians have sole power over the placements, but yeah, it would be better for Russia if D&W placed first in the team event. But does that placement carry over to the dance final? In the old days, probably yes; today, the results are more back and forth, sometimes through a season, sometimes through a competition, sometimes by alternating World titles.

    So it might be good for V&M if D&W beat them in the team comp, because then V&M can win the ice dance comp and both sides have been given "something."

    OTOH, I've been thinking a lot about the team comp and think if Canada wins it will really hurt their chances politically. If by the time dance rolls around Canada already has two gold medals, it will be hard for them to win, especially since the US is unlikely to medal in pairs and men. US' next best chance is ladies, but that comes after dance so D&W will be the only sure thing at that point.
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