Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,664
    Maybe the commentators can't predict how the judges are going to score, as the program is being skated. A detailed glance at the scores later will reveal where the teams differ. Commentators can only offer their opinions which is why they are there: To educate, not score. It doesn't mean a commentator is a bad commentator because they can't read the judges' minds.

    Many V&M fans act the same way. Everyone has their favorites.
     
  2. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    If the judges are scoring according to what's in the CoP, then someone knowledgeable about the sport, such as a commentator, should be able to make a fairly good prediction on how the programs are going to score. These aren't the days of 6.0, afterall.
     
  3. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    996
    Exactly. The people who hated V/M's Carmen or preferred C/L's Carmen to theirs will look like idiots in a couple of years just like the people who hated K/O's Carmen (like the commentator in the video!)
     
  4. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,810
    If the judges actually judged using the RULES/CRITERIA and applied such to what takes place ON the ice, then a GOOD DANCE commentator would have a decent idea of how a dance would be scored. However, it seems like the judges this season have decided to give more weight on some parts of some rules/critera (like being fast and furious and making what you do look difficult) while letting other criteria go by the wayside (like having good lines, finishing moves, being innovative, having moves that REFLECT the music/choreography, making the difficult look easy). Yep, really great trade-off there. Shades of another couple who raced around the rink to cover what they couldn't do.

    As for V/M fans telling D/W fans not to be upset when D/W lose, this is probably the wrong place to be making that kind of suggestion let alone putting it as a statement.
     
  5. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    I'm so sad. I feel really bad for Tessa and Scott right now. I mean when even your friends, who are supposed to be your "real friends" sell you out, what else can they do?
     
  6. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,649
    They could find new friends :) Really. Maybe better to know, what your friends thinking about you. Now i understand better why Tessa talked about people said she is like Carmen and why Scott sound so strong about they will not skate Mahler again. This is what people were talking about arround them. Maybe in this case better to read FS forums and on social networks- at least you could find few people, who respect, what you do.
     
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,032
    In that case the commentator can say "both teams looked good, and we'll have to see what levels were assigned and how the GOEs were scored," which some commentators do. To simply say that they had different styles and the judges will have to pick which one they "like" makes the entire sport sound like a joke, as if there are no criteria that go into scores like interpretation and choreography. I like the Germans, but I know that their scores for the components shouldn't be as high as other teams whose style I don't like. To see a coach like Marina using that type of language is disheartening to me. If she said her teams were equal, based on the criteria within the rulebook, that would be different. Her comment implies it is simply down to a matter of taste, style, and emotion.
     
  8. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    Sigh…
    If its just a preference of style, why have rules? Why have the tech panel and judges? If its just a preference of style how is that fair because some judges might be biased against a team for whatever reason; like one judge might have been biased against T/S because of the sexual tone of their FD (not saying that happened, but trying to make a point)? If its just a preference of style then they should consider giving the discipline a new name. I think Marina just said that because she has two teams and it doesn't matter who wins as long as she has her two teams on the podium; a win-win situation for her.

    ETA: BTW does anybody know why the ISU has blocked the Italian version of Tessa and Scott's FD performance?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  9. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    Wait. Who's selling out whom? :confused: I have been so busy and out of the loop these last days :(
     
  10. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2001
    Messages:
    8,165
    Thanks for the welcome back pani. :) I think I needed a little bit of a break post Worlds.

    I agree with you completely about the training situation. Even if both teams were complete equals, D&W/V&M were still close and Marina's coaching method was more like that of Tamara Moskivina, I would still feel the same way. The stress and friction present just is not good for either team. And it would be hard even for a coach trying not to play favorites to truly present and talk up both teams to the press and public.

    And yes. The rules seem much stricter for V&M than D&W. They have to be at 1000% on the ice at all times to get the marks. They aren't allow even the slightest bobble.

    Thanks professordeb. :)

    I wasn't referring to your post when I spoke about the stops; I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just rambling, trying to get everything I was thinking down before it left my head. I had been watching programs from K&O's heyday and some of the top FD's from the quad that ended with the Vancouver Olympics. It occurred to me how many of the FD's had stops in them; even the very top teams. It's probably near impossible to have a FD that never stops moving from the time the music starts to the ending pose. It just made me realize just what Tessa and Scott accomplished and appreciate it all over again.
     
  11. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    996
  12. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    I keep coming back to this one myself. One of the intentions of CoP was to take the notion that "its just a preference of style" out of the equation with the judging. There are very specific criteria, and if those aren't going to be used as they're supposed to be--instead, using GOE and PCS to rank skaters according to preference like the marks in 6.0 were used--then we might as well go back to 6.0.

    ETA:
    I was also somewhat puzzled by this. I'm not sure what he wanted or expected either, given Fabian's injury. OTOH, it is nice to see a fed standing up for their top ice dance team.
     
  13. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,664
    Just because the commentator said the judges might have a preference, doesn't mean they do. There's no way you can make sweeping statements like that about the judges' or the tech panel's personal opinions, based on a commentator's opinion, since the judges don't give interviews. A commentator is not going to correctly predict the winner 100% of the time, because they are not fortune tellers. Like the audience, a judge could personally prefer a 10th place team, but they have to score what gets put down on the ice as the winner.

    Disagreeing does not mean there is a judging scandal. Even when my favorites don't win I can see how the other deserved to win. Unless someone is going to open an investigation, it's over.

    I do agree with this, but it's pretty much impossible to prove, like 6.0.

    Can someone translate?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  14. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,649
    Of couse you did this last season :) And of couse now you are sure your favorite skaters are best ever and even wish all agree nobody close to them in lines, technick, SS ect. But change alwase happened. And OG will be in Russia with strong russian teams. So on your place i better quietly clebrate today and wait untill OG and start all this PR after FD at OG 2014.
    Iknow, what you will answer, so - in V-M case its really nothing to lose. Especially with worst lines compare to best ever, so we could be now crazy :D
     
  15. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    But COP is not meant to be an opinion-based system. There are specific criteria that are meant to be used. If everyone is correctly using the same criteria and applying them in the same, correct manner, shouldn't everyone end up at the same result? Or, at the very least, close to it? Also, although a judge is supposed to score what gets put down on ice, it doesn't mean that happens. The history of this sport and discipline is littered with deals and shady judging; I don't think the switch from 6.0 to CoP changed that.
     
  16. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    Joannie was the athlete ambassador for the championships so she could hardly say anything of her true opinions! I think it's always nice to support your own country mates but she was just agreeing to what everyone else was saying about D/W winning. It didn't sound like she was expressing her true opinion rather just being diplomatic. I also think some people here need to cheer up. Nothing is against V/M next season and no one is putting them down. There are under-appreciated (which is an understatement) but they are athletes and this is a sport and in sport athletes are more appreciated when they leave than when they are competing. Think of V/M have accomplished and the acclaim they get from the ice dance community and other coaches!
     
  17. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    I wish that were true, but I don't think so. A lot of us have been following ice dance for a long time now, multiple decades for some, and we're just being realistic about the obstacles V/M face--none of which have a thing to do with their skating. They have no momentum, a massive PR campaign has been launched against them, their fed's interest seems to lie more with a team that finished 18th place, etc. I understand wanting to be hopeful, but I also think it's important to be honest about what they're up against.
     
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,032
    The commentator was just an example I used. The issue is what Marina said, and Marina should know better than to say that it's just apples and oranges and the judges will just choose one. That does a disservice to all of her athletes and what they're putting on the ice technically.
    They have to? As long as their marks are within the corridor I don't think they really get questioned.
     
  19. ofdarkness

    ofdarkness New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2012
    Messages:
    67
    I'd like to point out that Joannie actually said that DW's program and lifts were less creative and more safe. She said their program is more conventional and what the judges are used to seeing. So basically she said all the same things that we complain about in DW, but in a more subtle way. I don't see it as being negative towards VM. As a spokesperson for a national organization, she can't really speak whatever her true opinion may be. To acknowledge a loss in a fair light, I think that's just her being Canadian.
     
  20. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    Leafygreens, what are you talking about? What commentator? I was referencing Marina's article!! And what exactly are you trying to do anyways because I'm pretty sure you despise V/M.

    And I have to say I agree with Gerbil pezazz. While its nice not to lose hope completely, we need to be realistic.
     
  21. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,810
    Perhaps leafygreens would feel more comfortable in another thread -- like the one for D/W?
     
  22. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,664
    That's exactly what I was saying. There is no proof anywhere that judges are judging based on personal preference/opinion and not what the skaters do on the ice. When it comes to V/M & D/W, they are very close to each other in most competitions, leading me to believe the scores are based on specific criteria and not opinion.

    I was talking about this comment.
     
  23. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,232
    This.
     
  24. sequins

    sequins Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    I think we'd all have to be pretty naive or in a state of denial to think personal preference and opinion doesn't play some part. Whether intentional or not. The fact that D/W and V/M are usually so close 'leads you to believe it's based more on specific criteria'? Me, I think it's more opinion or something else, cause lately I can't find the 'specific criteria' the judges are basing their scores on either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  25. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,582
    iTA
     
  26. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    672
    Well said sequins - the "specific criteria" I thought was so important seems to go under rewarded currently.
     
  27. iggie

    iggie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,447
    can someone explain to me the names of the cuts in the carmen tessa and scott used? what's the official name of each scene/music?
     
  28. m_chenning

    m_chenning New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    138
    Some kind words about costumes from Nick Verrreos:

    http://www.nickverrreos.blogspot.ru/2013/04/figure-skating-costumes-2013-isu-world_3.html

    Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of Canada--One word: WOW. Another word: Sublime. Kids, I could go on. And I will. They skated their Silver Medal-winning Free Dance to "Carmen" by Rodion Shchedrin and these ensembles were flawless. So chic, so modern and directional. We have seen those "Carmen" costumes over and over...and OVER again. So how refreshing to not see a red rose in sight, or a mantilla or lace. Yet still, through their powerful performance, you get it! This, kids, is a MODERN Carmen. Thank you very much. Now, to the Costume Change news: This sheer and solid black asymmetrical neckline dress was a change for Tessa in terms of what she had been wearing all season long for this Free Dance...
    This dress/costume she had worn for the 2012-2013 season. For the Worlds, she--and her costume designer(s) decided a new black dress would be right. I LOVED the "old" plunging neckline dress above and in fact, thought it was one of THE BEST of all the Ice Dancers this entire season.But I liked the change as well. It's always refreshing to keep the Figure Skating Costume Watchers (such as myself) on my toes, looking out for any little (costume) changes.
     
  29. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,649
    Thank you! At least Tessa have not bad dress with her worst lines. Look at Meryl-Charlie SD photo - on her fingers. This will tell you all a about ballet.
     
  30. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,416
    +
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.