Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    Perhaps leafygreens would feel more comfortable in another thread -- like the one for D/W?
  2. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    That's exactly what I was saying. There is no proof anywhere that judges are judging based on personal preference/opinion and not what the skaters do on the ice. When it comes to V/M & D/W, they are very close to each other in most competitions, leading me to believe the scores are based on specific criteria and not opinion.

    I was talking about this comment.
  3. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    This.
  4. sequins

    sequins New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    I think we'd all have to be pretty naive or in a state of denial to think personal preference and opinion doesn't play some part. Whether intentional or not. The fact that D/W and V/M are usually so close 'leads you to believe it's based more on specific criteria'? Me, I think it's more opinion or something else, cause lately I can't find the 'specific criteria' the judges are basing their scores on either.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  5. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,535
    iTA
  6. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    628
    Well said sequins - the "specific criteria" I thought was so important seems to go under rewarded currently.
  7. iggie

    iggie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,447
    can someone explain to me the names of the cuts in the carmen tessa and scott used? what's the official name of each scene/music?
  8. m_chenning

    m_chenning New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    138
    Some kind words about costumes from Nick Verrreos:

    http://www.nickverrreos.blogspot.ru/2013/04/figure-skating-costumes-2013-isu-world_3.html

    Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of Canada--One word: WOW. Another word: Sublime. Kids, I could go on. And I will. They skated their Silver Medal-winning Free Dance to "Carmen" by Rodion Shchedrin and these ensembles were flawless. So chic, so modern and directional. We have seen those "Carmen" costumes over and over...and OVER again. So how refreshing to not see a red rose in sight, or a mantilla or lace. Yet still, through their powerful performance, you get it! This, kids, is a MODERN Carmen. Thank you very much. Now, to the Costume Change news: This sheer and solid black asymmetrical neckline dress was a change for Tessa in terms of what she had been wearing all season long for this Free Dance...
    This dress/costume she had worn for the 2012-2013 season. For the Worlds, she--and her costume designer(s) decided a new black dress would be right. I LOVED the "old" plunging neckline dress above and in fact, thought it was one of THE BEST of all the Ice Dancers this entire season.But I liked the change as well. It's always refreshing to keep the Figure Skating Costume Watchers (such as myself) on my toes, looking out for any little (costume) changes.
  9. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,610
    Thank you! At least Tessa have not bad dress with her worst lines. Look at Meryl-Charlie SD photo - on her fingers. This will tell you all a about ballet.
  10. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    +
  11. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    I already posted the names of the parts some threads earlier, but here you are:
    1. Parts from: Part V - Carmen's Entrance and Habanera: Allegro moderato - Quasi andante
    2. Parts from: Part XI - Adagio: Andante moderato – Adagio
    3. Part from: Part IX - Torero: Moderato con stoltezza
    4. Parts from: Part VI - Scene: Allegro moderato - Tempo precedente - Andante assai
  12. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    If this is true, then personal opinion played a part in all V/M's wins and they weren't actually deserved. Because you can't say that all 9 judges and tech callers for V/M wins are impartial, and all 9 judges and tech callers for D/W wins are opinionated and preferential. That kind of belief is getting into the land of ridiculousness.
  13. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Everything would be so much easier if we understood, for instance, how is it that a split lift in which the skater doesn't fully extend her legs and doesn't hold position gets a level four. For example.
  14. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    976
    I think the elimination of the CD and other changes that happened in the last quadrennial allowed for judges to express their personal and biased opinion even more when judging. Also whenever V/M beat D/W its never by a landslide and it's not like V/M had won being undefeated every year.

    She said their lifts were less creative but then goes on saying that they were more artistic that night :confused: Am I the only one who finds this a tad contradictory?
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  15. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    I don't understand French, so I can't be sure, but probably she meant expression? I won't go into debate about Meryl and Charlie's expression now, but I personally thought that, while Tessa and Scott's Worlds performance of their FD was technically the best of the season, it was not the best in terms of expression (imho - for me their Nationals performance of it remains the best in that regard, the Skate Canada performance being the second).
  16. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Also, let's ask ourselves why the disparity of GOEs? How does that work? Take the diagonal step sequences. Both level 3, right? But what was it that was so lacking about V-M's that got them such low GOEs? Was it too shallow? Was it sloppy? Was it slow? What happened there? That's the question, that's our doubt: we saw a great performance that, for some reason, didn't get very good GOEs and that makes your scratch your head. I am not saying that V-M should get perfect tens and maximum GOEs, I simply do not understand, based on what I saw, those GOEs. Another example, the twizzles. Look at the GOEs there, low as well, even when the execution was pretty great, the ice coverage was phenomenal and the synchronization was perfect. Not to mention the difficulty: As, I've mentioned before, there are two changes of pace both into and out of the twizzles. The fact that they gained speed after that intro and then do a full stop coming out of them should be rewarded, don't you think? Notice I am simply mentioning elements here. What the judges do with the PCS I will never understand. I am trying to make sense of the scores based on what I saw on the ice.
  17. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    To be fair, Meryl didn't fully extend her leg not because she couldn't, but because after the first time when she did the lift in full split they were told by judges that they couldn't do two lifts in full split position in the same program. And what do you mean by "doesn't hold position"? I haven't counted the seconds, but it looks to me like she did hold the position for long enough, although the position wasn't in full split. If I understand correctly, in full split or not, it's still a position.
  18. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Interesting, indeed. So, that was intentional then?

    It doesn't look like a finished movement, I don't know how to say it in English. I haven't timed it, but it looks as if it started before it ends.
  19. sequins

    sequins New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    You jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth is ridiculous. Did I say that? No I didn't. I never said 'Only D/W's wins are because of personal opinion and aren't deserved' It plays a big part in skating in general, especially ice dance and it doesn't mean that the wrong person wins all the time either. My point was I don't understand the scoring this season, the big gaps, world record scores? I don't know what they are basing it on if not a big part of it being personal preference. That, or they just don't know what the heck they are doing sometimes which sadly I think in this scoring system seems to be the case at times. Even the skaters have stated they didn't understand why they got the levels/scores that they did after certain performances because they had done it that way before and got different results. It's all very confusing at times and affects the skaters and sometimes forces them to rework their programs (case in point V/M spin, all season good, at Canadians no good. Change it. Why:confused:)I just didn't get the scoring this year in dance and not just between D/W and V/M but others as well. I don't think that's ridiculous to state and it doesn't mean I hate D/W just because I question the judging.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  20. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    So you would have me believe that this rotational lift is as well done as this one and that they deserve the same base (4.00) and GOE (1.36) value?
  21. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    193
    How about these pics, you think this form is intentional? :p GPF, Worlds 1, Worlds 2, Nats 1, Nats 2.

    Compare those pics to this photo set. As noted, some of these pics might look awkward to some, but the gymnastic fan in me loves the way Tessa holds herself during this lift, #3 and #6 in particular, her body looks very centered in an axis line even while transitioning and being rotated.

    I hope I don't get into trouble posting this, just making a comparison, one that affects my personal preference. I don't think many fans care or nitpick about this, certainly not the judges anyway. :lol:

    One of my favorite Tessa midlift pic of this season is still this one from Danielle Earl. This part of the lift happens so fast but she was able to capture it, midair, back arch, limb extension and all.
  22. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Thank you. I was looking for those gifs.
  23. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Which is why I said, so very interesting, indeed ;)

    And notice these are all mid-lift pictures, not the end result. Even then the difference is glaring.
  24. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,802
    WOW, those are some amazing shots. It certainly supports the thoughts of many in this thread that V/M seldom hit a bad position -- especially Tessa. Everything looks finished all the way out to the toes and the fingertips. Comparing the V/M photos to the D/W photos, it's very easy to see that that the good positions and finishes that occur with V/M don't happen with D/W.
  25. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    Eh, what are you talking about :confused:? That is, I understand full well what you are talking about, but that definitely wasn't what I was talking about. Or did I somehow misunderstood Golightly? I thought that she was talking about Davis/White's FD lift where Meryl is standing on Charlie's knee with her leg extended in front of her. After I had written my reply it came to my mind that she had probably meant the second, "real" split lift where Meryl is on Charlie's shoulder, but not for a minute I thought about their SD lift.

    As for the lifts that you posted gifs of - based on how close Meryl's and Tessa's legs are to their heads, and the difficult entry to the lift that Tessa/Scott had, probably no - at least the GOE should have been higher for Tessa/Scott. Other than that I don't really know.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  26. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    Well, I am going to nitpick what you posted. In my opinion, it's a bit unfair to compare the kind of rotational lift that Meryl/Charlie had with the totally different kind of lift that Tessa/Scott had. I think if Tessa and Scott did the same lift as Meryl and Charlie, Tessa wouldn't look all that wonderful in that phase of it either, although she would probably look a bit better than Meryl.
  27. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    GASP! How dare you (point out the obvious) ;)

    Another thing I noticed were the GOEs for the polka pattern. I don't recall now, but V-M hit level 4 for both while D-W missed a level in one, correct? Yet, both got the same GOE. Seeing the patterns back to back, I wonder, if you hit level four on a very intricate pattern, and your edges are clean and deep, shouldn't the judges recognize that? But, what do I know?

    I am not saying that V-M should've won the SD, I think they deserved to be second because they made mistakes and, hey, it is fair that judges punish mistakes. What they did not deserved was to be 3.25 points back. Because if we're going nitpick, well, let's do the same for everyone. Scott dropped a level at the end of the NtSt; Tessa dropped another one during her twizzle, but I guess getting back on it and being in synch for the remaining two doesn't count either. Oh, but let's ignore things like, out-of-synch set of twizzles that don't travel and let's ignore lack of difficulty, unfinished lines, and mediocre extensions and let's give them a world record. In my days, world records were given to memorable performances.
  28. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,610
    Maybe i dont understand you. Do you thin this http://d2.yimg.com/sr/img/1/f95aa911-3d42-342c-92c8-6c407bccaaf7 look wonderfull? :rolleyes:

    Honestly, V-M had "bigger" pattern. They had softer knees and easy move.
    But maybe judges like better, how D-W pattern go with the music.
  29. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    Quite honestly, I mean, VERY honestly, look at her on the FD rotational then. Let's look at all their rotationals, it's a fun and very illuminating exercise! Who controls her body better? Who is able to allow her partner to move her better mid-rotation? But, more importantly, who hits the better final position? Come on now. A little bit better?

    But V-M's curve lift goes with the music, the twizzles too. In fact, those two elements depend on the stakers' ability to hit music accents? But, who knows, Pani? What do we know anymore.

    Hell, I am not even saying Virtue and Moir should've won Worlds, that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is how they were taken out of the race after the SD, what bothers me is how undermarked that brilliant FD was. That program was a freaking work of art, its very existence under the new system is incredible. And ice dancers will look back and watch that program and marvel at how amazing it was.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  30. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,610
    The funnist thing for me is, that in next season other teams will took parts from "Carmen" and will use it for there programs. Like this was with PF, Latin FD (even music was taking from there FD and twizzeles was made maybe by ten teams).
    But like we found this FD today isnt good enough. Sorry, maybe its matter, who skate this FD?
    I am bothering with 2 things.
    1. GOE for V-M pattern, wich was brilliant skate and they got this level 4.
    2. They lose in FD. And most ao all - NDP had higher on on the same level markes for choroe and transitions.
    I am not talking about overall victory at this WCh. But if its fair judging, why it fair only for V-M?
    Its hard now to understand, what judges want from them next season. I a sure for NDP V-M will get 8 fro choreo.
  31. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    582
    Allow me to :cheer: for this post.
  32. iNap

    iNap New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    184
    For olympics all team and Marina will stay home and send greate photos to competition in Sochi ;) Medal will come by mail :D
  33. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Messages:
    155
  34. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,859
    Hello people. I have some videos that I don't think have been posted yet (thanks squintyfly). SRC version of the FD (the commentator's voice is totally trippy lol), interview right after the final results (interviewer lady rubbing salt in the wound), and another interview (I think after the SD).

    ETA: Whoa! That's actually kinda crazy that we posted the same thing. Lol, wow I should have scrolled up a little bit before posting.
  35. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    Hahaha, within minutes :)
  36. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,859
    Yea! Great minds think alike. Do you post on fanforum too?

    Tessa mentioned starting the Olympic season early. Where do you guys think they'll go, Finlandia?
  37. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,610
    When did she said this? I think Finlandia will be good competition for.the start. They could use Nebelhorn Throhy or B competition in USA.
    Look like Shibs now working in Texas with choreographer. Interesting to know, what VM are doing now.
  38. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,610
    Or and Thornhill Throhy.
  39. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    582
    That is absolutely hilarious and wonderful at the same time. The commentator is living every single step with them, I loved that!!
  40. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,859
    In the first link pezazz posted, Tessa says there is something special about starting out the competitions a little bit earlier in the season.
    Lol his reaction during the rotational is the best.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.