Virtue and Moir # 27 - ROAAAAAAAAAAR

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rainbowkisses, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Its Charlie :)
  2. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    Wow, it's been awhile since I watched K/O's Carmen. Thanks for posting the link, Doris. :)

    IMO, it's interesting to look at the two different Carmen interpretations done in different eras by two all-time great, legendary dance teams.

    ITA. Both programs have the darker, more violent overtones and take a look at the emotions behind the story, but from different perspectives. K/O's program is a look at Carmen and Don José as individuals, as you said, while V/M's program was a look at their relationship.

    I think V/M's program is far more complex than K/O's and I give them the nod for having the better program (thought K/O's is certainly magnificent in its own right!) as V/M told the story entirely through dance movement rather than storytelling more through theatrical interpretation.
  3. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that Tessa & Scott didn't skate in that club show.
  4. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I think they didn't because it was more about those kids and they would've eclipsed those other shows.
  5. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    ITA. They haven't skated in the carnival in a very long time, and yes, that club show is all about those kids. They deserve to have their chance in the spotlight without being overshadowed by Tessa and Scott.
  6. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Did you know something? I an wonder, what they are doin now.

    They didnt skate last season because they need to be ready for WTT. Another time i think they were at vacation.
  7. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I've never heard that Tessa and Scott have skated in this show before? Have they?
  8. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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  9. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I read this on Russian. Thats why VM need another coach - Marina couldn't talk about there strong points and about TS FD. Or maybe she didnt see this strong points. Just like last season she was upset and now she is happy. I don't think its good thing she try to made impression this is bad judges did everything and she is an angel.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I have always hated that argument. Suzie Wynne used to say that a lot - "it's just what you like!"

    Why have a rulebook, then?
  11. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Lol IDK anymore. I give up. And maybe Tessa and Scott have conceded also.
  12. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    If Tessa and Scott weren't retiring, they'd probably leave Canton. As things are right now, I doubt they will.
  13. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    This situation just sucks. It's like people are afraid to say what makes Tessa and Scott so good; there has to be an asterisk there, that their "friends and rivals" are they're equals and this and that and everything else. Even Scott has changed his narrative. And you're right the fact that they have only one season left probably wouldn't motivate them to leave.
  14. m_chenning

    m_chenning New Member

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    Amazing how so-called "reasonable" D-W ubers glad for that "rivalry". What could learn T-S from them? Nothing. (a especially in terms of elegance, beautiful lines, extension and class of skating ( and sure connection) This comparison is insulting. It's profanation of the sport. Enough of that. Tessa and Scott deserve some respect and their OWN coach with full attention. Why not to let such friends to stew in their own juice? Tessa and Scott are not a toys for such kind "joyful" ....puppies (hi DJ, yes :D)
  15. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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  16. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    I would really love to see V&M leave Canton/Marina as well but at this late date I realize it just ain't gonna happen. I'm not even sure it's because Tessa and Scott have conceded and are at peace with next season as much as it is that they still trust and believe in Marina. I don't agree but V&M still seem to think Marina is looking out for their best interests.

    m_chenning, I also think that V&M need a coach who is not training the two top teams in the world. Tessa and Scott need someone who can't/won't hold back in talking them up in the press and making sure everyone knows just how brilliant V&M and their programs are. A coach who when a program like Carmen and the way they skated it the night of the FD doesn't win can feel free to come out and voice his/her displeasure.

    I've seen people say that what some of us believe to be true about Marina playing favorites is not true; that as the coach of both D&W and V&M she can't single out one team over the other. However that argument doesn't hold up for me because when it comes to helping to "talk up" V&M, Marina is mum yet she doesn't seem to have the same issue with D&W. Marina doesn't hold back when telling the press about all of D&W's amazing qualities. When she did speak publicly about Tessa it was to talk about Tessa's lack of confidence and her leg issues.

    I've also seen some of the D&W fans say that we shouldn't be upset when V&M lose. The two teams are so even, the results could skew either way. It's great for the sport and exciting for us no matter which team wins.

    The funny thing is that all seems to go out the window when V&M win. All of a sudden the rivalry of two equal teams becomes politicks and V&M winning because of poor judging. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
  17. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    If circumstances were different I could see why Didier would be pissed off but given Fabian's injury I'm not sure what he expected. Disappointed and worried for next season I can see but pissed no. Would he rather have another DomShabs situation?

    I loved K&O's Carmen and at the time they skated it, it did seem ahead of their time. One thing K&O's version had in common with V&M's is that it went completely over the heads of most people. Most people seem to feel the "real" and proper interpretation of Carmen is more like that done by Katarina Witt. Flirty and playful with a death at the end. The story of Carmen doesn't seem quite so simple. After K&O's Europeans performance it seemed that the focus became mainly about Anjelika's expression particularly in the middle portion of the dance. It's a shame because everything else that was so wonderful about the dance ended up being eclipsed. At least in the NA press.

    Also with the stops - most programs during that time were constructed that way. I'm not even sure those stops were about resting (although it did give K&O a couple of breathers) as much as they were integral to telling the story and to accommodate the change in music tempo.

    I've always felt that K&O are one of the all time greats and IMHO they were the last of the great Russian dance teams. There were a couple of other Russian team who came after that had potential to be greats but for various reasons the careers of those dancers never advanced once they entered the senior ranks.

    K&O's Carmen FD also illustrates exactly just how brilliant V&M are all around as icedancers. Carmen was one of the most if not the most difficult FD's ever attempted. Even the stops were more theme oriented than Tessa and Scott trying to rest. To be fair, back when K&O skated there was more room for interpretation and storytelling in the FD's. V&M skate in an era when the technical demands make it far more difficult to tell a story on the ice. So for team V&M to have come up with the program they did was incredible. Everthing teams like K&O have done in the past, V&M have taken it way beyond what was thought to be possible back then.

    I love that we got to see Carmen but sorry that the FD did not get the appreciation it deserved. That V&M were not recognized for exactly what it was that they did. I don't even think some people really quite realize how difficult the Carmen FD was and what it took to make a program like it under CoP. Especially in an era when most teams settle with the connect the elements type programs and the judges reward that. I do think that as time passes, Carmen will be talked about even more and in very positive terms.
  18. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Carmen Ovsiannikov , happy you are back :)
    At the begining of the season Zoueva said Carmen must get orld record at the WCh. Maybe then "moms" said to her - if this will happened, or you will talk about this , we will take our babies from you. Joke, but she never said this after SC.
    And as for coaching situation. Like i said a lot off times before. Friendship (fir all, who belive in ut) will become more close, when they will work in different places and will not work under this pressure every day.
    Did you remeber, how Charlie said he wake up every day with thouht he didnt get medal at 2009 WCh?
    Or how D-W talking about they think, they won WCh in 2012?
    And what Scott said after they lose 2011 WCh? I will work hard to return my first place on disk. This is all about V-M. They are thinking they could change everything, if they will work hard. When there friends know, not only hard work could help. ;)

    As for Carmen. If this was other team, i will say this amazing FD will bring them success next season. But with V-M itsnot the same. When all teams need to do eleemnt on +1 to et +3, V-M need to do element on +6 to get +3.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    CO - I totally understand about the "stoppages" and how often they might have occurred back in the day that K/O competed. It was not meant as a slam on them, merely an observation compared to what we tend to see in dance more often now.

    And your post gets a "thumbs up" from both hands from me. I'd rep you if I could.
  20. Manaud

    Manaud New Member

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    Watching the two of these programs back to back brings a ton of attention to K/O two foot skating.
  21. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the commentators can't predict how the judges are going to score, as the program is being skated. A detailed glance at the scores later will reveal where the teams differ. Commentators can only offer their opinions which is why they are there: To educate, not score. It doesn't mean a commentator is a bad commentator because they can't read the judges' minds.

    Many V&M fans act the same way. Everyone has their favorites.
  22. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    If the judges are scoring according to what's in the CoP, then someone knowledgeable about the sport, such as a commentator, should be able to make a fairly good prediction on how the programs are going to score. These aren't the days of 6.0, afterall.
  23. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The people who hated V/M's Carmen or preferred C/L's Carmen to theirs will look like idiots in a couple of years just like the people who hated K/O's Carmen (like the commentator in the video!)
  24. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    If the judges actually judged using the RULES/CRITERIA and applied such to what takes place ON the ice, then a GOOD DANCE commentator would have a decent idea of how a dance would be scored. However, it seems like the judges this season have decided to give more weight on some parts of some rules/critera (like being fast and furious and making what you do look difficult) while letting other criteria go by the wayside (like having good lines, finishing moves, being innovative, having moves that REFLECT the music/choreography, making the difficult look easy). Yep, really great trade-off there. Shades of another couple who raced around the rink to cover what they couldn't do.

    As for V/M fans telling D/W fans not to be upset when D/W lose, this is probably the wrong place to be making that kind of suggestion let alone putting it as a statement.
  25. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I'm so sad. I feel really bad for Tessa and Scott right now. I mean when even your friends, who are supposed to be your "real friends" sell you out, what else can they do?
  26. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    They could find new friends :) Really. Maybe better to know, what your friends thinking about you. Now i understand better why Tessa talked about people said she is like Carmen and why Scott sound so strong about they will not skate Mahler again. This is what people were talking about arround them. Maybe in this case better to read FS forums and on social networks- at least you could find few people, who respect, what you do.
  27. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    In that case the commentator can say "both teams looked good, and we'll have to see what levels were assigned and how the GOEs were scored," which some commentators do. To simply say that they had different styles and the judges will have to pick which one they "like" makes the entire sport sound like a joke, as if there are no criteria that go into scores like interpretation and choreography. I like the Germans, but I know that their scores for the components shouldn't be as high as other teams whose style I don't like. To see a coach like Marina using that type of language is disheartening to me. If she said her teams were equal, based on the criteria within the rulebook, that would be different. Her comment implies it is simply down to a matter of taste, style, and emotion.
  28. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Sigh…
    If its just a preference of style, why have rules? Why have the tech panel and judges? If its just a preference of style how is that fair because some judges might be biased against a team for whatever reason; like one judge might have been biased against T/S because of the sexual tone of their FD (not saying that happened, but trying to make a point)? If its just a preference of style then they should consider giving the discipline a new name. I think Marina just said that because she has two teams and it doesn't matter who wins as long as she has her two teams on the podium; a win-win situation for her.

    ETA: BTW does anybody know why the ISU has blocked the Italian version of Tessa and Scott's FD performance?
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  29. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Wait. Who's selling out whom? :confused: I have been so busy and out of the loop these last days :(
  30. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    Thanks for the welcome back pani. :) I think I needed a little bit of a break post Worlds.

    I agree with you completely about the training situation. Even if both teams were complete equals, D&W/V&M were still close and Marina's coaching method was more like that of Tamara Moskivina, I would still feel the same way. The stress and friction present just is not good for either team. And it would be hard even for a coach trying not to play favorites to truly present and talk up both teams to the press and public.

    And yes. The rules seem much stricter for V&M than D&W. They have to be at 1000% on the ice at all times to get the marks. They aren't allow even the slightest bobble.

    Thanks professordeb. :)

    I wasn't referring to your post when I spoke about the stops; I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just rambling, trying to get everything I was thinking down before it left my head. I had been watching programs from K&O's heyday and some of the top FD's from the quad that ended with the Vancouver Olympics. It occurred to me how many of the FD's had stops in them; even the very top teams. It's probably near impossible to have a FD that never stops moving from the time the music starts to the ending pose. It just made me realize just what Tessa and Scott accomplished and appreciate it all over again.
  31. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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  32. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I keep coming back to this one myself. One of the intentions of CoP was to take the notion that "its just a preference of style" out of the equation with the judging. There are very specific criteria, and if those aren't going to be used as they're supposed to be--instead, using GOE and PCS to rank skaters according to preference like the marks in 6.0 were used--then we might as well go back to 6.0.

    ETA:
    I was also somewhat puzzled by this. I'm not sure what he wanted or expected either, given Fabian's injury. OTOH, it is nice to see a fed standing up for their top ice dance team.
  33. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Just because the commentator said the judges might have a preference, doesn't mean they do. There's no way you can make sweeping statements like that about the judges' or the tech panel's personal opinions, based on a commentator's opinion, since the judges don't give interviews. A commentator is not going to correctly predict the winner 100% of the time, because they are not fortune tellers. Like the audience, a judge could personally prefer a 10th place team, but they have to score what gets put down on the ice as the winner.

    Disagreeing does not mean there is a judging scandal. Even when my favorites don't win I can see how the other deserved to win. Unless someone is going to open an investigation, it's over.

    I do agree with this, but it's pretty much impossible to prove, like 6.0.

    Can someone translate?
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  34. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Of couse you did this last season :) And of couse now you are sure your favorite skaters are best ever and even wish all agree nobody close to them in lines, technick, SS ect. But change alwase happened. And OG will be in Russia with strong russian teams. So on your place i better quietly clebrate today and wait untill OG and start all this PR after FD at OG 2014.
    Iknow, what you will answer, so - in V-M case its really nothing to lose. Especially with worst lines compare to best ever, so we could be now crazy :D
  35. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    But COP is not meant to be an opinion-based system. There are specific criteria that are meant to be used. If everyone is correctly using the same criteria and applying them in the same, correct manner, shouldn't everyone end up at the same result? Or, at the very least, close to it? Also, although a judge is supposed to score what gets put down on ice, it doesn't mean that happens. The history of this sport and discipline is littered with deals and shady judging; I don't think the switch from 6.0 to CoP changed that.
  36. PEZazzz

    PEZazzz New Member

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    Joannie was the athlete ambassador for the championships so she could hardly say anything of her true opinions! I think it's always nice to support your own country mates but she was just agreeing to what everyone else was saying about D/W winning. It didn't sound like she was expressing her true opinion rather just being diplomatic. I also think some people here need to cheer up. Nothing is against V/M next season and no one is putting them down. There are under-appreciated (which is an understatement) but they are athletes and this is a sport and in sport athletes are more appreciated when they leave than when they are competing. Think of V/M have accomplished and the acclaim they get from the ice dance community and other coaches!
  37. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I wish that were true, but I don't think so. A lot of us have been following ice dance for a long time now, multiple decades for some, and we're just being realistic about the obstacles V/M face--none of which have a thing to do with their skating. They have no momentum, a massive PR campaign has been launched against them, their fed's interest seems to lie more with a team that finished 18th place, etc. I understand wanting to be hopeful, but I also think it's important to be honest about what they're up against.
  38. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    The commentator was just an example I used. The issue is what Marina said, and Marina should know better than to say that it's just apples and oranges and the judges will just choose one. That does a disservice to all of her athletes and what they're putting on the ice technically.
    They have to? As long as their marks are within the corridor I don't think they really get questioned.
  39. ofdarkness

    ofdarkness New Member

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    I'd like to point out that Joannie actually said that DW's program and lifts were less creative and more safe. She said their program is more conventional and what the judges are used to seeing. So basically she said all the same things that we complain about in DW, but in a more subtle way. I don't see it as being negative towards VM. As a spokesperson for a national organization, she can't really speak whatever her true opinion may be. To acknowledge a loss in a fair light, I think that's just her being Canadian.
  40. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Leafygreens, what are you talking about? What commentator? I was referencing Marina's article!! And what exactly are you trying to do anyways because I'm pretty sure you despise V/M.

    And I have to say I agree with Gerbil pezazz. While its nice not to lose hope completely, we need to be realistic.
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