Virtue and Moir 25: Road to home

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. HJay

    HJay New Member

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    All Canadian skaters are referred to as "our xxx" by DD except Patrick Chan who is referred to as "my Patrick Chan". It took two days to get her to wash her hand after the hi5s at the end of the gala and she kept offering to let other people touch her "skaters hand". :)
    She was blown away by the height, speed etc. of the senior skaters, but nationals really inspired her to think more about musicality in her own skating, which was surprising to me.
  2. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You might be onto something. It might be more than the sex thing, though. They might not necessarily be requiring "uplifting" but I think they at least want "not weird." Look at the SD. Once they took out the more esoteric elements, the program was received much better internationally. I think the ISU does not want programs that need to be explained to the audience. They want it to be easily accessible. God forbid you have a thing called subtext in a program, or vary from the exact original storyline! The audience is just so dumb, they'll be hopelessly lost. :rolleyes:

    If this is the case then I hope Marina has asked the judges about the PCS and they explained. If they are just marking them down for that without explanation, it's a little unfair.

    I second this. I get totally confused when I try to navigate tumblr or Live Journal, and I'm not on FB or twitter, but I love looking at the pretty pretty pictures and am amazed at some of the graphics people make, so please post links to good pictures and gifs!

    That's as good of a summary of Carmen as I've heard. :respec:


    When I was a kid I made my parents play Meat Loaf's Paradise by the Dashboard Light in the car over and over. I thought it was funny that it had a baseball game in the middle, and I had no idea what getting to first base or hitting a home run meant. :saint:
  4. HJay

    HJay New Member

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    This story made me smile! And a great blast from the past! i havent though (or listened to) Soft Cell in years. Tonight's homework...
  5. sequins

    sequins New Member

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    LOL at the music stories and not having a clue about the lyrics meaning. It's funny years later when you realize. For me it was 'Like A Virgin'.
    'Hey Dad can you tape that Madonna song off the radio for me' then dancing around, singing it. Looking back I don't think my dad batted an eyelash, guess he knew I didn't have a clue:lol:
    As far a 'Carmen' being 'too sexy' and the judges 'sending a message' I just don't buy that. I think it's a big pile of nonsense cooked up by a bunch of haters and it gets far more attention then it deserves. Lord knows figure skating has seen much worse over the years just in costuming alone. So much so that it required it's own rule. Katarina Witt was 'too sexy' years ago and she dominated and was adored so I just don't buy it in this day and age. That said if it was true some one need to grow up and if I was the skaters next years programs would be all 'sexed up'. Why not? It's a very 'uplifting' topic;)
  6. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    Wow! A 7-year-old child totally got what some adults have trouble comprehending, a 7-year-old child understood the basic story of the dance while some adults either cannot get past the sensual/sexual aspect of the dance or cannot accept Carmen program that is not a literal interpretation of the original storyline. Thank you for sharing and welcome to the thread! Amazing really, sometimes a child's perspective is much better for its simplicity, without the prejudices we all tend to acquire as adults.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  7. Fort

    Fort New Member

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  8. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    Yep, and she hit it right in the head, while some can't even get past the lifts. But I guess the last part about Carmen wanting her freedom to be with the man she really wants and Don Jose not loving her enough to let her go and just being obsessed with her and the subsequent battle of their wills might be too much for her. A "being mean" and "that wasn't nice" interpretation is good enough I suppose. :lol:

    Some links to pics and GIFs in case you haven't seen these.

    close up pic

    FD GIF set

    SD GIF set

    nice fanart here
  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Thanks! :D I knew someone would come through with a gif of him holding her on the medal stand. Love that cameraman.
  10. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    Ha! I can see erotic scene and the dolphins, but I must admit that I only saw the dolphins at second glance. I guess I am semi-corrupted then. :lol:
  11. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    No problem. As if a VM GIF maker would let that moment go un-GIFted. Watching the medal ceremony again, it's also mildly amusing to see Scott's medal totally skewed but he didn't bother righting it because that would mean letting go of Tessa. :lol:
  12. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    Likewise. Heck, I even knew what I was looking for and I still saw the couple first, LOL. But it's like Carmen; yes, at first, I was amazed at how sexy it was, but at 'second glance' (and all the glances since) it's way down on the list of things I'm noticing. I got past that and instead look at the skating, the dancing.
  13. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    He could barely let go to congratulate C/B... he managed to shake Evan's hand, but he put his hand back even as he was hugging Madison, LOL.
  14. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    :)

    :lol:hehe, so true.

    Thanks so much for sharing your stories, HJay, I really enjoyed them! And welcome to the forum!

    and welcome back, PashaFan!

    I am so happy for all of you who have been able to see them live this year.

    Thank you pani and martyross for those pics.

    Thank you! If you are reading left to right, the fourth gif in the set of gifs from the SD really captures what I love most about this team. They use their technical proficiency to bring the music to life. They go from a double twizzle into a bracket in a way that perfectly captures the timing and the feel of the music and program. It is that detail, the way they take the elements and use them to tell a story, that makes me love them so.
  15. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    you know, I think we wouldn’t have the perception that Carmen "is not received as well as the SD" by the judges, if their rivals were not scored so generously especially in the first part of the season. The problem is not the program itself, it’s the gap between PCS scores. And this comparison has a great influence on fans’ opinions. We all know that Tessa and Scott lack refinement at the beginning, etc etc (but I actually doubt it, seeing for example the first outing of Funny Face at Finlandia - and Carmen at SC was already extraordinary) but in what way this justifies the marks that Davis and White get all the time? (Or perhaps, the truth is that ice dance judges have been simply throwing exaggerated marks to all the top dancers since Vancouver Olympics? What a coincidence, that all these 9-10’s appear so frequently in the most political discipline, the one with less glaring objectivity!) Every period in ice dance has a dominating school, set as the winning standard, and in this cycle it’s clearly the Shpilband school, and the team that best represents it, is D/W’s. Who are great in some respects, but again, does this justify those marks? from the very start of the season, judges make them appear like "the model", their particular style is indirectly awarded as the "non plus ultra". Hum? Does this mean the all the other teams must use the same style to reach the very top, otherwise their skills and artistry are inferior? it’s also obvious that the geo-politicking has been imposing a "change of the guard" in the discipline, using the tremendous ability of VM and DW.
    I think that a general lowering of the marks (bringing them back to the "strict" judging of the other disciplines) would benefit the scoring a lot, avoiding unfairness, and, yeah, it would spare us a lot of head aches. Of course, I didn’t mean to repeat the refrain about D-W’s scores for the nth time, but I wanted to explain where the perception of "a not-much-loved Carmen" could come from.
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  16. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the dolphins at all! And I keep looking because I don't want to be seriously corrupted lol.
  17. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    thanks for this. my daily ration of Beauty. Tessa's look as Carmen has always the power to shock me for a few seconds.
  18. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I noticed the skewed, unfixed medal as well along with Scott basically refusing to take his hand off of Tessa for more than a split second to shake hands when he absolutely had to. Otherwise, there was no prying his hand off, even with a crowbar.

    ETA: Marty, I think the gap in the PCS scores is political. Honestly, V/M should be outscoring everyone here, even D/W, in every category.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  19. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    It might help if you click on the picture to make it bigger... or if you already have and still can't see the dolphins, I guess there's no help for you. ;) (But on a more serious note, it's mostly about negative space... the couple is the lighter colour, while the shadows create the dolphins, if you can flip your brain into looking at what we would normally discard.)
  20. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall New Member

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    LOL! Click on the picture to make it larger. The dolphins are the shadows or silhouettes, mostly on the sides.

    Yea, seeing Carmen first time was like that optical illusion for me as well. A combination of fearing the worst regarding choreography, the shock that I'm loving it, my apparently semi-corrupted adult mind focusing on the sexual aspects first (the diagonal SS did register to me to my defence), not to mention lack of sleep due to time difference and my work hours. It took several viewings before I was able to focus on the layers and figure out the story. Kind of embarrassing after reading HJay's story on how her daughter got it immediately. :)
  21. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    Haha I see them now! Wow, embarrassing.

    Anyways I was going to say this awhile ago, but I forgot. I would like to thank all the people that came in here hoping Tessa was ok, even though they said they're really fans of D/W. I thought that was nice. I hope they're both ok, but particularly Tessa, I keep thinking of them.
  22. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Beautifull Tessa :)

    [​IMG]
  23. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    Thank you all for pics vids etc. Sarahrainfall loved especially the fanart. While I love the black and white, I thought the SD one would make a very impressive banner. You'd be able to see it from one side of rink to the other. They are such beautiful people. I love their elegant lines and matchless chemistry
  24. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    Whose suit is Scott drowning in? He should get suits tailored by the same person who makes his skating costumes (except find someone who can sew buttons on better ;) :lol:).

    That's a great idea!
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  25. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    This is the same costume from Nice. It looked better with Tessa dress there.
    Did he was without button on exibition costume again? :rolleyes: He need to find girlfriend :lol:
  26. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    lol, I had the same problem. It took me the longest time to see the dolphins!

    also, nice post:)


    re: the marks

    martyross, I agree that different panels are going to see things differently, so it is difficult to make predictions about how worlds will be judges. What troubles me, though, is that I do not feel that some teams are getting credit for the difficulty of their choreography, amongst other things. I am going to pick up on something Cherub721, aka_gerbil, and bcmg hit on in the previous thread, because that pretty much sums up how I feel about a lot of the judging this season and its potential effects on future programs. I have felt for a while that P&B do not receive credit for the difficulty of their transitions and for their spatial management. Look at the changes of direction and changes of hold, and the ways in which they use the space between each other and around them. very, very difficult. And they skate nice and close together. I know they had hoped to challenge the top two teams this season, and I wonder how they must be feeling.

    And I am an I/K uber and think they are immensely talented, but I was really disappointed to see them receive the kinds of marks they did at Euros for a program that is really lacking in terms of transitions. I think the judges were generous with them, to say the least. I hope they will push themselves to explore more difficult choreography in spite of this, because I think they can be amazing.

    And I was honestly perplexed at the scoring of the SD at 4CC in terms of PCS. Tessa and Scott have a variety of transitions (three turns, twizzles, held edges, mostly one-foot skating, all with varied body positions--just look at when Tessa leans back and holds her edge)...extremely difficult work, and the elements are just woven into the program. Also, in P/E I wonder how much line and carriage is taken into account (clarity, the "refined lines of the body and limbs"). I also think that extended arms and free legs can slow a skater down as they are expanding the surface area of their bodies and will thus meet more air resistance/drag force, which will decrease their velocity. something to think about when considering speed with respect to the other aspects of PCS.

    So, like others, I feel like this will encourage teams to play it safe in terms of choreography. If difficult transitions will not give you an edge, you are better off, in terms of marks, going for less complicated choreography that will maximize your chances of achieving your levels.

    sorry for rambling.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    aka_gerbil and (deleted member) like this.
  27. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    :lol: The dolphins took their time making their presence known to me.........It's so nice to be warped at my age, and I hope it never changes ;)
  28. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    Clarie.. Likewise ! :rofl: Never mind second glance, try 3, 4, 5..I really had to struggle to start seeing dolphins , and then it took a while to get up to 9 .

    I just hope this doesn't mean I'm obsessed.
  29. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    Carmen never horrified me, not even in a good way ;) I mean, I'm okay with dolphins and the like ;)
  30. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    BourneKraatzfan, excellent post and I'm really glad you mentioned P&B.

    I'm always shocked (though I shouldn't be at this point) when people comment on how they only won their bronze last year due to politics and/or they aren't that good and are about to be passed by other more worthy teams. I've always felt that P&B should be much closer to the top two than the judges have been indicating with their marks. Granted when Tessa and Scott are skating up to their potential (which I realize they have had their issues this year) I would have P&B behind them but P&B are still being slotted into 3rd place no matter what. I really did feel that this season would be different.

    Some of us expressed worry over whether the mishap (understatement) in the FD would cost V&M a shot at the gold on home turf. However, I'm wondering/hoping that Fabian's injury and P&B's subsequent withdrawal from Europeans won't cost them as well.

    Thanks to everyone who is providing links to gifs, pictures, articels and their own event reviews. Much appreciated.

    ETA:
    I guess I should be ashamed to mention that even though I think the sexed up Carmen talk is overblown, I didn't see any dolphins until someone suggested paying attention to the negative space. Ahem.....
  31. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    :respec: :respec:

    It's really disappointing to see that this is not being given credit by the judges in the ice dance competition. These ARE the elements that make ice dancing what it is. Skaters like Kostner and Chan can get great marks when they pop/fall on jumps because of these factors... why do they count more in singles than dance? It's baffling to me. And V&M put it together with cleanly executed, mostly level 4 elements, so it's not like they slack on the technical side at all.

    I too thought I&K were generously marked at Euros, and I love them also, but I think that was a product of the lack of depth there and the fact that B&S and C&L also have some big deficiencies in their skating. I still believe P&B will eat all the other European couples for breakfast.

    But hey if this is what is rewarded then maybe V&M should go to Morozov next season and they can skate to Carrie: The Musical. :D
  32. ofdarkness

    ofdarkness New Member

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    As a 17 year old who went through the shift not so long ago, I can say that I don't remember much of an in-between. I either got the sexual references, or I didn't. Programs like Carmen shouldn't have much of an effect on kids, because if they are that young, they would not see anything out of the ordinary. If they know enough to realize what it implies, then they clearly already know what's going on. I would actually love to go back and be able to see the programs in the perspective of a child. I think it'd reveal things that we don't even notice.
  33. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Re: the marks especially the PCS.
    I think V/M got dinged a bit because of the stop. Now I realize that there are some who would argue that there wasn't any hit at all, but I would beg to differ. I remember reading somewhere on this board how V/M were getting better marks before their stop. Afterwards, there was a drop. Also, someone posted about stoppages and how there wouldn't be a deduction but that judges could lower the PCS. Drats if I can recall it correctly so am going to either 1) find that post or 2) find it in the rules.

    OK, found the post by sedge in the comp topic about dance and here's what caught my attention
    I bolded the part that I found interesting. Here is it, an "opportunity" to reduce the score in components should a judge feel the need because a fresh start is given. I would suggest that at least *some* of the judges may have lowered their PCS marks for V/M in the FD, even if subconsciously, because of the stoppage.
  34. smileyskate

    smileyskate New Member

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    In case anyone is interested (won't post the link I was sent), the icenetwork forum has a thread where someone posted that perhaps Tessa had to go along continuing to compete despite her pain because it was Scott wanted. Does he seem to be a bit overcontrolling of her at this point? Years back I wonder if he sort of insinuated that he'd maybe do some shows together if he could, but, if needed, would consider seeking another partner to continue on to Sochi. I am not hating, just want her to be happy and that includes physically as she ages.
  35. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I would seriously find this NOT in character for Scott, not with everything I have seen and read about how much he cares for her -- in the best of friends vein. Did these people not see the tender way he was with her in the KnC, how protective he was on the podium? This is a young man who practiced with a sack of flour while Tessa recovered from surgery, FGS. Yeah, they had some rough times but what couple doesn't? Who are these nut cases?
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  36. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I've ever heard is the two state the other is the only other partner for them. I remember other people speculating that Scott could skate with someone else but not him.
  37. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I think, when they got back, he asked her if she was okay. Furthermore, I do not recall Scott ever stating that he'd try to find another partner, even if it was what many people here and elsewhere asked of him.
  38. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    If he did say that, honestly, that would be his right. They are an athletic team; if he said to her he'd like to continue skating in Olympic-style competition and that he would understand if she couldn't and if so he would find another partner, then there's nothing wrong with that. (Not saying this happened, just that I would hold nothing against him if it did, and I don't think it's a sign of him having an ego). And it would be her right to continue or refuse.

    Frankly I'm just so sick of all of the insinuations that Tessa is this frail, feeble little girl who's not only physically injured but also can't think for herself (I'm not talking about your post). I googled the icenetwork thing and I see a lot of it there and on other sites as well (GS).

    This is an adult woman who has agency over her life and is perfectly capable of owning her choices. I absolutely love that Scott is protective of her, but I don't want people to mistake that for weakness on her part. I think it's hot that Scott can be brusque with the cameraman but totally tender to Tessa at the same time. I love that. But just because he chooses to play that role in public doesn't mean he controls everything the team does. I mean who wanted Funny Face, who suggested working with a modern dance choreographer.... it wasn't Scott.
  39. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I'd rep you if I could. You're absolutely right -- Tessa steers her own path and it's why she's such a great Carmen.
  40. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

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    I think Tessa is more of a leader than most people make her look so. You can see that a lot more during practice.