Virtue and Moir 25: Road to home

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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  2. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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    That's Maia Shibutani.
     
  3. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    O, yes. Sorry.
     
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  5. HJay

    HJay New Member

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    I had my 7 yr. old daughter (who is a competitive skater) with me at Canadian Nationals last month. This child is very perceptive for her age, and she talks! I fielded endless questions at the end of programs about why skaters were moving "snakey" and what "Hoochie Coochie" means (Kaetlyn Osmond's program) and whether costumes covered up things that should be covered up etc. etc. etc.

    V & M's Carmen is introduced - (Tessa's dress was approved of, but DD wasn't sure about the tights...) and I am wondering with slight trepidation what the questions/ comments will be. I didn't need to worry - the skating mesmerized her and rendered her totally silent for the duration. She was fascinated by it, and talking to her afterwards she understood that Tessa encouraged Scott, and they were in love (holding each other tightly, body to body) and then Tessa changed her mind and decided to be mean to Scott and push him away and that wasn't nice.

    What my 7 yr. old didn't remark on was things like whose hands were where, and whether they were on clothing or under clothing. She registered the story, but the details that we notice as adults and comment on just didn't register. She doesn't understand what they represent and therefore she didn't notice them I think. I presume that it is similar to when she doesn't register innuendo in conversation....

    For me, this makes a piece like V & M's Carmen art (conveying an idea that works on many levels, including sexual for those who understand what they are seeing). In contrast, many other programs which, as adults we watch without batting an eye-lid, are more problematic for kids to watch as the sexual-lite stuff is tacked on to the technical content for effect, rather than being an integral part of the piece. It doesn't make sense to young observers, because it isn't integral to a story/ idea, so they notice it and comment.
     
  6. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    you should tell your daughter that it was actually scott's character being meant to tessa's character :lol:

    tessa is the fiercest carmen even when she's skating in pain
     
  7. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for telling us about your personal experience :) Good for your daughter to see "live" such amazing skaters, like Tessa-Scott and Patrick.
     
  8. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    When I was younger I had a Soft Cell album I loved. I remember driving out of town with my aunt and uncle. We were going to a cabin and I'd be the big cousin taking care of my younger cousins so I got to pick the music on the drive and stuck in the tape I made of Soft Cell. I remember at one point in the song the two of them look at each other and cringe. I just assume they were two old to appreciate good music ;) It was years later that a light bulb went off and I realized the sound that made them cringe was quite explicit. I knew the music was edgy, seedy, but I didnt have the experience to recognize that what I was hearing was a guy ejaculating. The cringe between them was obviously their discomfort that we were hearing what they were hearing. But we didn't. It's the same with Carmen. Any art really. There are layers to everything and we discover those layers when we are able to understand them.
     
  9. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I´m really tempted to do Nationals next year. Skate Canada timing works better with my schedule but I think Nationals is when V&M, Chan and the others will be near their peak.
     
  10. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes, thats very mportant. Its a big difference between to see skates at first GP event and WCh.
    I feel so lucky i saw V-M two time this season. lot off favorite skaters i didnt saw even 1 time "live".
    But in Nice they were flying above the ice. Its was amazing.
     
  11. HJay

    HJay New Member

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    All Canadian skaters are referred to as "our xxx" by DD except Patrick Chan who is referred to as "my Patrick Chan". It took two days to get her to wash her hand after the hi5s at the end of the gala and she kept offering to let other people touch her "skaters hand". :)
    She was blown away by the height, speed etc. of the senior skaters, but nationals really inspired her to think more about musicality in her own skating, which was surprising to me.
     
  12. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You might be onto something. It might be more than the sex thing, though. They might not necessarily be requiring "uplifting" but I think they at least want "not weird." Look at the SD. Once they took out the more esoteric elements, the program was received much better internationally. I think the ISU does not want programs that need to be explained to the audience. They want it to be easily accessible. God forbid you have a thing called subtext in a program, or vary from the exact original storyline! The audience is just so dumb, they'll be hopelessly lost. :rolleyes:

    If this is the case then I hope Marina has asked the judges about the PCS and they explained. If they are just marking them down for that without explanation, it's a little unfair.

    I second this. I get totally confused when I try to navigate tumblr or Live Journal, and I'm not on FB or twitter, but I love looking at the pretty pretty pictures and am amazed at some of the graphics people make, so please post links to good pictures and gifs!

    That's as good of a summary of Carmen as I've heard. :respec:


    When I was a kid I made my parents play Meat Loaf's Paradise by the Dashboard Light in the car over and over. I thought it was funny that it had a baseball game in the middle, and I had no idea what getting to first base or hitting a home run meant. :saint:
     
  14. HJay

    HJay New Member

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    This story made me smile! And a great blast from the past! i havent though (or listened to) Soft Cell in years. Tonight's homework...
     
  15. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    LOL at the music stories and not having a clue about the lyrics meaning. It's funny years later when you realize. For me it was 'Like A Virgin'.
    'Hey Dad can you tape that Madonna song off the radio for me' then dancing around, singing it. Looking back I don't think my dad batted an eyelash, guess he knew I didn't have a clue:lol:
    As far a 'Carmen' being 'too sexy' and the judges 'sending a message' I just don't buy that. I think it's a big pile of nonsense cooked up by a bunch of haters and it gets far more attention then it deserves. Lord knows figure skating has seen much worse over the years just in costuming alone. So much so that it required it's own rule. Katarina Witt was 'too sexy' years ago and she dominated and was adored so I just don't buy it in this day and age. That said if it was true some one need to grow up and if I was the skaters next years programs would be all 'sexed up'. Why not? It's a very 'uplifting' topic;)
     
  16. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

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    Wow! A 7-year-old child totally got what some adults have trouble comprehending, a 7-year-old child understood the basic story of the dance while some adults either cannot get past the sensual/sexual aspect of the dance or cannot accept Carmen program that is not a literal interpretation of the original storyline. Thank you for sharing and welcome to the thread! Amazing really, sometimes a child's perspective is much better for its simplicity, without the prejudices we all tend to acquire as adults.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  17. Fort

    Fort New Member

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  18. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

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    Yep, and she hit it right in the head, while some can't even get past the lifts. But I guess the last part about Carmen wanting her freedom to be with the man she really wants and Don Jose not loving her enough to let her go and just being obsessed with her and the subsequent battle of their wills might be too much for her. A "being mean" and "that wasn't nice" interpretation is good enough I suppose. :lol:

    Some links to pics and GIFs in case you haven't seen these.

    close up pic

    FD GIF set

    SD GIF set

    nice fanart here
     
  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Thanks! :D I knew someone would come through with a gif of him holding her on the medal stand. Love that cameraman.
     
  20. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

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    Ha! I can see erotic scene and the dolphins, but I must admit that I only saw the dolphins at second glance. I guess I am semi-corrupted then. :lol:
     
  21. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

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    No problem. As if a VM GIF maker would let that moment go un-GIFted. Watching the medal ceremony again, it's also mildly amusing to see Scott's medal totally skewed but he didn't bother righting it because that would mean letting go of Tessa. :lol:
     
  22. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    Likewise. Heck, I even knew what I was looking for and I still saw the couple first, LOL. But it's like Carmen; yes, at first, I was amazed at how sexy it was, but at 'second glance' (and all the glances since) it's way down on the list of things I'm noticing. I got past that and instead look at the skating, the dancing.
     
  23. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    He could barely let go to congratulate C/B... he managed to shake Evan's hand, but he put his hand back even as he was hugging Madison, LOL.
     
  24. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan Well-Known Member

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    :)

    :lol:hehe, so true.

    Thanks so much for sharing your stories, HJay, I really enjoyed them! And welcome to the forum!

    and welcome back, PashaFan!

    I am so happy for all of you who have been able to see them live this year.

    Thank you pani and martyross for those pics.

    Thank you! If you are reading left to right, the fourth gif in the set of gifs from the SD really captures what I love most about this team. They use their technical proficiency to bring the music to life. They go from a double twizzle into a bracket in a way that perfectly captures the timing and the feel of the music and program. It is that detail, the way they take the elements and use them to tell a story, that makes me love them so.
     
  25. martyross

    martyross Active Member

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    you know, I think we wouldn’t have the perception that Carmen "is not received as well as the SD" by the judges, if their rivals were not scored so generously especially in the first part of the season. The problem is not the program itself, it’s the gap between PCS scores. And this comparison has a great influence on fans’ opinions. We all know that Tessa and Scott lack refinement at the beginning, etc etc (but I actually doubt it, seeing for example the first outing of Funny Face at Finlandia - and Carmen at SC was already extraordinary) but in what way this justifies the marks that Davis and White get all the time? (Or perhaps, the truth is that ice dance judges have been simply throwing exaggerated marks to all the top dancers since Vancouver Olympics? What a coincidence, that all these 9-10’s appear so frequently in the most political discipline, the one with less glaring objectivity!) Every period in ice dance has a dominating school, set as the winning standard, and in this cycle it’s clearly the Shpilband school, and the team that best represents it, is D/W’s. Who are great in some respects, but again, does this justify those marks? from the very start of the season, judges make them appear like "the model", their particular style is indirectly awarded as the "non plus ultra". Hum? Does this mean the all the other teams must use the same style to reach the very top, otherwise their skills and artistry are inferior? it’s also obvious that the geo-politicking has been imposing a "change of the guard" in the discipline, using the tremendous ability of VM and DW.
    I think that a general lowering of the marks (bringing them back to the "strict" judging of the other disciplines) would benefit the scoring a lot, avoiding unfairness, and, yeah, it would spare us a lot of head aches. Of course, I didn’t mean to repeat the refrain about D-W’s scores for the nth time, but I wanted to explain where the perception of "a not-much-loved Carmen" could come from.
     
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  26. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the dolphins at all! And I keep looking because I don't want to be seriously corrupted lol.
     
  27. martyross

    martyross Active Member

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    thanks for this. my daily ration of Beauty. Tessa's look as Carmen has always the power to shock me for a few seconds.
     
  28. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I noticed the skewed, unfixed medal as well along with Scott basically refusing to take his hand off of Tessa for more than a split second to shake hands when he absolutely had to. Otherwise, there was no prying his hand off, even with a crowbar.

    ETA: Marty, I think the gap in the PCS scores is political. Honestly, V/M should be outscoring everyone here, even D/W, in every category.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  29. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    It might help if you click on the picture to make it bigger... or if you already have and still can't see the dolphins, I guess there's no help for you. ;) (But on a more serious note, it's mostly about negative space... the couple is the lighter colour, while the shadows create the dolphins, if you can flip your brain into looking at what we would normally discard.)
     
  30. Sahararainfall

    Sahararainfall Active Member

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    LOL! Click on the picture to make it larger. The dolphins are the shadows or silhouettes, mostly on the sides.

    Yea, seeing Carmen first time was like that optical illusion for me as well. A combination of fearing the worst regarding choreography, the shock that I'm loving it, my apparently semi-corrupted adult mind focusing on the sexual aspects first (the diagonal SS did register to me to my defence), not to mention lack of sleep due to time difference and my work hours. It took several viewings before I was able to focus on the layers and figure out the story. Kind of embarrassing after reading HJay's story on how her daughter got it immediately. :)