Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    So you made me go on youtube and look it up. I don't think it's the one you mean but the one I saw wow! I didn't know Maia accused Zhulin of physical abuse? Time sometimes makes you forget but man that Pasha/Oksana was something else.
     
  2. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I'm not sure which one you saw, this is a new one just uploaded this week: http://youtu.be/j9iGnlrz5Us. The one I'm refering to, and I can't seem to find it at this moment, was one which featured a reinactment of the infamous Spago bar fight, complete with grainy b&w camera work and actors in wigs playing the main parts. :rofl:

    Anyway, reminding myself that this a V&W thread, :p Best of luck to Tessa & Scott at the GPF.
     
  3. elle123

    elle123 Member

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    The Russians definitely bring the drama ... on and off the ice ;)

    I personally don't mind going on these types of tangents, especially when there's a lull between competitions. I am anticipating the GPF and the battle between V/M and D/W. I'm definitely going to miss this rivalry once one of these teams retire.
     
  4. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I certainly give D/W credit for their skills (and have never dissed them), however the issue for me is the question of what distinguishes ice dance as a discipline from pairs, and what has historically been valued in the best ice dancers (e.g. musicality, unison, close skating, neat feet with precision and control, edgework, timing, line, posture, stretch, finesse, emotion, speed but not at the expense of control). Similar to many things that are valued in off-ice forms of dance (which I also love). Spins are singles/pairs elements historically, they were never part of dance and I'd personally rather see them dropped from ice dance programs. To me they don't add anything to a dance program - let the pairs skaters do them!

    V/M already possessed the ice dance qualities I most value, but for me they have taken their skating/dancing to another level with the Carmen program and I hope they keep pushing forward, regardless of whether the judging system/judges reward it at present.
     
  5. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I completely agree with you.

    I guess I was just trying to demonstrate that I do give D&W credit for what they do as I've been accused of hating D&W in the past. I get the feeling that some might feel that some of us stating that there really shouldn't be a rivalry (especially not this season) is just sour grapes and hating on them because we are V&M fans who aren't open to anyone who might be a threat to them.

    I agree with everything you've listed as the criteria that icedance used to be judged on. Some things in dance are always going to be subjective but there truly are objective criteria as listed in the rules that can be applied to every team. Every thing you described above is a perfect description of V&M. Every so often the judges seem to change what they value in dance and maybe this is just one of those times. Continuing to attempt explaining why some of us feel that V&M and D&W just might not be that closely matched with one another (with clean skating on the parts of both teams) is like banging your head against the wall. And it causes bad feelings and blow ups.

    I just want to see V&M finally pull everything together and skate their programs full out. I don't think I can love the Waltz and Carmen more than I already do but it should be something to behold.
     
  6. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    Your response demonstrates what I was trying to say. Once again any suggestion that some of us feel that D&W haven't really been that closely matched with V&M (especially not this season) is interpreted as some sort of unrealistic, unpleasant attitude caused merely by sour grapes because V&M aren't winning all the time rather than an objective look at the skating of both teams.

    It's a given that most teams have strengths and weaknesses but with some teams their strengths outweigh those of other teams. All of the things I readily give D&W credit for V&M possess as well along with those criteria flowerpower listed. That V&M have speed and difficulty along with all the other things is what makes me feel that they are (at least on paper) better than D&W. What has helped D&W is that they have a higher performance level in general. For the most part they have not been hampered by the nerves (or physical issues) that V&M have thus haven't had the deductions and +GOE that V&M have.

    As for teams collecting medals left and right and beating all the other teams being an indication that they are equal; by your reasoning that means that F/P&M were also an excellent deserving team. The same goes for Grishuk/Platov and we know that isn't neccesarily the truth. How many times have most of the posters at FSU stated their opinions that F/P&M were a terrible team gifted (it was bought up again in the What If? K&O thread currently going) and beneficiaries of bad judging calls. As well as C&S and L&A and Domshabs. Grishuk/Platov have also collected a load of medals and wins but people still question, debate and challenge whether or not those were deserved especially with the falls that team used to have in their skates.

    Just because teams win medals and receive placements doesn't mean those medals and placements are accurate (this is just a general statement, not neccesarily directed completely at D&W).

    I don't think questioning this one rivalry and wondering whether it is really is a rivalry makes people think that everytime their favorite team does not win it's because of fraud. Or maybe I give people too much credit for being able to apply the judging criteria case by case or rather team by team.

    I didn't see that sentiment stated when P&B won their World bronze last year and many felt that W&P had been ripped off.

    It's what I've been trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to get across that it's okay to discuss most of the other teams but something about D&W this quadrennial seems to set people off.

    At this point it I'm not even sure why I bring it up anymore. Many of us have our opinions and those opinions at this late date aren't going to change. If anything, this years sets of programs have made some of us (no matter what our opinions are) more adamant in those opinions.
     
  7. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    Saying D&W are V&M's equals is a particularly funny thing because they are so far from it I sometimes wanna cry.

    Just in terms of lines, extensions, posture, stretch and control, V&M are so so far ahead of anyone else. In comparison, D&W never ever corrected that and their skating always look frantic.
    It's just the difference between ice dance and speed dance ;)
    Noone can accuse me of being a rabid V&M fan, and I always favored D&W because at least they were selling their crapastic programs. But this year, FINALLY, V&M have two programs worthy of their talent. It was just about time.

    And don't get me started on B&K. Please :scream:
     
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  8. iNap

    iNap Active Member

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    I am worry they will not do this for Sochi :( This new system no good for V-M. Spin is bad element. Scottx had trouble with lift too and this dancers had to show lot off lifts which is not good for him. V-M will be better when liftes and spin removed. This is pair skater moves. They can show even greate emotion if they make new rules.
     
  9. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about? Their lifts are quite difficult and beautiful! Their spin is good as well; not the best in the world, but enough.
     
  10. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    The spin is beautifully conceived, it just needs to be more centered, even if they don't have the greatest speed. It was better at SC than in Russia and they had higher GOE for it.
     
  11. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    iNap knows the art of trolling well. I salute you, sir (or ma'am). Tip of the hat ;)

    Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2
     
  12. martyross

    martyross Active Member

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    Thank you once again for a great post, Carmen, you hit the chore of the problem as always and you express your thoughts so well :)
    About Tessa and Scott's spins, contrary to what iNap thinks :)P:D), i personally find them one of the highest emotional points of all their programs and this since Umbrella. They are also so in tune with the rithm and the mood of the music and they approach them with perfect expression. the fact that they don't rotate super-fast gives us the chance to admire the positions of their bodies, that always reflect the music, and also to see their facial expression. Think of the ending spin of Mahler, what a touching, restful yet poignant ending for this trascendent work of art. Who cares if they don't appear as superdifficult, supertechnical and superfast, when they are such expressive spins? :swoon: in those moments the last thing i pay attention to is the technique.
    didn't TAT say one that they use the technical element to express the music?
     
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  13. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    The spin may not appear to be superdifficult or supertechnical. That doesn't mean that it isn't both of those things.

    Their FD spin is spectacular this year. It's one of the rare times I've seen a spin that is truly choreographed to add to a program, rather than just be a pretty thing that fits the overall theme.
     
  14. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    Liking this post alot and nodding my head in agreement:)
    That they do.
    I love it as well. It's magnificent. They may not be rewarded for it but damn I appreciate the effort.
     
  15. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    There are so many things I like in the FD. I was just thinking about that twirl Scott does in he Adagio section, where he leans his head back and looks at Tessa. It's such a simple move, but so difficult to do beautifully. I'm so glad they chose to really focus on dance this season.
     
  16. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    At the risk of sounding like a ~hater~ I never knew D&W were supposed to be such great spinners. I've never even really noticed them either way. I'll try to watch for them next time.

    IMO, if we're analyzing it element by element, then we're already missing the point about what ice dancing is supposed to be.
     
  17. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Now its interresting to know - where did T-S spend all this time after CoR? They were in Ottawa last week, coaches was in Japan.
    So they will have one week before GPF?

    And could someone help to find V-M Gala pratice from SC and grup number from SC, focusing on T-S, where they dance slow dance together.
     
  18. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    That's ok to be honest I never really noticed either.:shuffle: I think it's because I'm such a V/M fan that I watch and rewatch and analyze (and over analyze)that I notice everything about them and while I'm a fan of other teams I just don't watch them as much I just appreciate what I see and move along... and watch V/M some more.:D
     
  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Proustable, I just got a chance to really look at your post from a few days ago, and since we're so far off topic already, I wanted to continue. ;)

    I totally understand your point about not being able to separate tech from artistry, and you're right, certain points of technique are in themselves artistic, like the run G&P get off a blade. However, I do think there's too much emphasis on the elements now, and not enough on the finer points. It intersects the discussion we're having now about Carmen. All of those little extra things that V&M do like him caressing her in the spin are adding difficulty, but not levels or GOE. A lot of couples IMO play it safe and try to find the easiest way to get high levels, and don't add anything extra if it won't add points. It's kind of a utilitarian approach. It's more technically challenging to perform footwork in hold close together with matching lines and pointed toes, but if that doesn't add to the marks, some dancers don't do it. Granted, not everyone did that under 6.0 either.

    We completely disagree about SLC. :) That and Nagano are my absolute favorite Olympics, I loved almost every dance down to the 12th-15th place range. However, 1994 is my least favorite, and that was under 6.0, so I'm not necessarily saying every season of 6.0 was better than CoP.

    By lower ranked, I meant outside of the top 5, and of course I like some programs, but something is missing for me. I hate to pick on the Russians, but the death of Russian ice dancing has just been excruciating to watch for me. They churn out so many dancers with great flow and beautiful long lines, but terrible, terrible programs. I think I&K with their skills would've done amazingly under 6.0, but all I can see now if their ugly lifts which they have to do to earn points and which ruin my impression of almost all their programs. And Bobrova, she is such a lovely skater, but I feel like she pushes hard down into the ice to get the edge calls on footwork, and then her posture ruins the look of the dance. Under 6.0 she would have the freedom to show off her beautiful lines in a way that looks good, and with the expressiveness we are seeing from Soloviev this season, they could create a masterpiece, which IMO they've not done. V&M are to me the only ones that do really difficult stuff and still make it look good, so I agree with you that having an artistic program with mind-blowing elements is wonderful, I just don't see it happening as often. P&B are good, but I see strain in some elements, and that takes away from the impression.

    Agree with all that. I guess I just see it as V&M being such an exquisitely rare talent and not the system necessarily. Most of my favorite CoP era dances have come from couples who started under 6.0. Out of the ones that are considered to have grown up with the new system, I like a number of them, but the only ones that truly grab me are V&M.

    And even there, V&M really did come up under 6.0 to an extent. They competed at Jr Worlds under 6.0, so all of their basic training came before CoP was invented. They still had to train compulsories regularly. It will be interesting to see a whole new generation of ice dancers who weren't born until CoP was in effect. They might do a better job bridging the gap because maybe by then, everyone will be at a really high technical level and they will have to have those little extra things in their programs to distinguish themselves.
     
  20. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Probably with Swan?
     
  21. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    I think it's fine to analyze each element, so long as in the end, you don't miss out that it's the whole package that counts.

    To give credit where credit is due, D/W are fabulous spinners. As much as I love V/M and as much as I think they really are clearly the far, far better team overall, D/W own that element and they own it even when you start to look at the spins that the pairs are doing as well. They don't lose speed and they tend to stay perfectly centered. When so many teams--dance and pairs--can't manage those things, it's really quite impressive.

    As far as V/M's dance spins, they have all of the difficulty they need for level 4, but, at times, they tend to travel (badly at CoR) and lose speed.

    As for last week, I think V/M were only in Ottawa that one day, and not all of the coaches from Canton were at NHK. There would have been someone "home" for them to work with. Plus, too, I'd imagine it would have been a good chance to work with Swan again.
     
  22. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    :lol: I couldn't care less what you think of my post. Save it for pani, since you have been so very clever as to sequence your pseud as the reverse of her username.
     
  23. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    1992 was my favourite ice dancing Olympics...then Vancouver in a very close second.

    Olympic Rankings since 1992...
    1. 1992 (simply because I loved everything from K&P, U&Z and G&P)
    2. 2010 (V&M & D&W)
    3. 1998 (G&P, K&O, A&P and B&K- but I also liked P&S, D&V and F-P&M)
    4. 2002 (A&P, all the OD's)
    5. 2006 (N&K, B&A & D&V)
    6. 1994 (G&P, the OD's, B&K and N&G)

    I hope V&M are working with Swan on their FD. Between SC and RC you could see the SD got better so now they can really fine tune the FD. I also hope they fix whatever is off with the Compulsory dance portion on their SD. I would love to see them level 4 everything.
     
  24. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Just wanted to pop in again to say that I'm really enjoying the discussion on 6.0 vs. COP. :)
     
  25. skatingfan12

    skatingfan12 New Member

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    Putting home crowds aside, nine out of 10 times the audience in the arena and audiences at home who aren't familiar with skating at all, are going to root for Meryl & Charlie over Tessa and Scott, and I think that's the biggest difference in their skating.

    People recognize Tessa and Scott's skating skills and artistry. However, people who just watch skating during the Olympics, who honestly don't understand the ice dancing judging system and can't tell the difference between an okay team, a good team, a great one, look for the "entertainment" and "fun" factor, which Meryl and Charlie's skating is suited for. If you watch dancing shows like Dancing With The Stars or So You Think You Can Dance where the public votes, dancers who aren't so entertaining are often eliminated before others who are better entertainers.

    I remember watching Olympics with my dad, who only watches figure skating during the Olympics, and one-by-one as each team skated, including Domnina/Shabalin and Belbin/Agosto, he would say, "They're no good!" in a sarcastic way, then when D/W came on, he's like, "They're good!!" When T/S came on, he said, "They're good. They really skate together, but I don't think they're good enough to beat the Americans though." To him and others, POTO was fun, entertaining, rousing, and easy for the crowd to get into, along with the difficult elements, while Mahler was a bit more quiet and subdued. I think he was dumbfounded, along with many other people, when the scores came up and Tessa and Scott won, especially by the big margin that they did so. I think it was the same at last year's WCh in Nice as the fans thoroughly enjoyed both DF ad FF, it seemed like DF got the bigger reaction from the crowd.

    With D/W and T/S being so close in terms of scoring in technical elements, I think what it really comes down to is D/W's style is much more preferable to spectators. Whether or not that helps with judging, probably not, but if D/W and Tessa and Scott both do their best in Sochi '14 and Tessa and Scott win, I can easily see a "scoring controversy" brewing because people at home prefer Meryl and Charlie's program a lot more than Tessa and Scott's.

    Although I won't say Tessa & Scott is more like a high-end luxury store and Meryl & Charlie are more like a budgetary supermarket, because that's a little demeaning towards their abilities and the years of hard work they've put in, IMHO.
     
  26. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    I get what you are saying skatingfan and unfortunately there are a ton of people who go to skating events or watch it every now and then and really don't have a clue what to look for. They go by entertainment value alone, which is important but it can't win you an OGM, something I find very difficult to get through people's heads(my dad as well:lol:). Or in pairs/singles they think one mistake and you should lose because the other guy didn't fall, not realizing the skater that didn't fall never did a quad or triple axel and had a variety of other flaws the average 'fan' just doesn't see(bringing back memories of SC 1996 and my 'conversation with a fan'). What really bothers me about this is the example of last season when FF won gold at Worlds and the 'experts' start writing articles and insinuating that the 'fix' is in again in figure skating and that because the crowd preferrred D/W that meant they should win but they don't back it up with any facts or examples why. They just write a careless, uneducated article(because I'm not really sure that many 'experts' are anything of the sort) that encourages peoples 'lack of education' regarding the way programs are marked to continue. Yes the crowd cheers louder for some, and at 2011 worlds V/M got more cheers but that doesn't me you win and trying to explain that to the average viewer is a battle I find I can not win.
     
  27. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    The pre-Olympic season has only just begun, we have absolutely no idea what the two teams will skate to next year, yet you can already "see a scoring controversy" in 14 months' time? That's interesting.

    Audiences will most of the time go for the entertainment factor, yes. That's why so many people in Moscow thought Tessa and Scott should have won Worlds in 2011.:p But the judges are there to look beyond the excitement and compare the teams' technical elements. If audience reaction were the only criterion, the Duchesnays would have won several times in their career over Klimova & Ponomarenko! Thank God that wasn't the case. Not that I'm actually comparing D/W to the Duchesnays, because D/W are good technical skaters, as opposed to the French.

    Also, I'd like to point out that Tessa and Scott's performances in Vancouver have won over a great number of (non-Canadian) new fans, some of them who had never watched figure skating for more than a few minutes in their whole life. So you see, it all depends on what touches you personally, as a spectator. People's tastes are as different as night and day.
     
  28. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    It's a little presumptuous to believe that 90% of an audience who didn't know anything about skating would end up like D/W over V/M. My guess is it would be far lower than that. I've watched skating with several family members who know nothing about it, and most of them seem to prefer V/M... I'm definitely not convinced that D/W are somehow automatically preferable by most spectators. My experiences have certainly shown that not to be true. My guess is that it would likely be closer to 50/50...

    Even at that, this is an Olympic sport. There's a reason why trained judges are used to score programs and award medals and placements rather than public voting like it was American Idol, DWTS, etc. Even if someone who doesn't know a bloody thing about skating prefers one team, the judges DO know about skating and that's what matters in the end.

    If V/M (hopefully, hopefully, hopefully) win *turn, spit, curse*, and there is a judging controversy, IMO, it'll be because of US media bias and a failure to even try to explain to the viewers the reasons why they won based on their skating.
     
  29. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    POTO is more rousing than Mahler. Hip Hip Chin Chin is easier to clap to than Il Postino. Die Fledermaus is peppier than Funny Face. It's that simple.

    I would expect V&M to get the audience nod this year not because they're better, but because Carmen has a better beat than Notre Dame.
     
  30. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    D&W skating has often been frantic and that is noticeable. Also Mahler had that draw you in factor while you were left on the outside in the case of POTO.