Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.
I really enjoy that these two teams fight for their win and the best program possible. It makes it very exciting ... Just a reminder that v/m have shown a not perfect Carmen yet either.
You know, this made me sad. Really.
I cant understand, when one poster at russian message board said, that FS and people are not ready for this "Carmen". they care more about art, then sport.
Now i understand her. People couldnt see the difference in body movement and dirfficultie of some of V-M elements. For example this spin, where Scott touch Tessas face. Uniqie V-M lifts still underrated.
I even read Tessa-Scott look so bad in Carmen, they need to show something more romatic
When Delobel-Shonfelder did something like this, people loved there programs, even if N-K skated with WOW factor nobody said there programs were at the same level.
Not the same situation now. Look like even in London in will be D-W arena. I never could understand this unrespect to V-M in Canada. Canadainas never made bunner for them, never recognise them on street. So i am not surprise Patrick and V-M were in shock at CoR with so much fans of all skaters were there.
Hope situation is different for W-P. And V-M will not compete very soon and Canad will have top team, wich they want to have. I read theye worked with Shae-Lynn. Cant wait to see what they will show at Nationals. I think she feel this team much better, then Krylova Pasqualle.
I agree about the banner - its sad they didnt have any before.
But I dont agree about the recognition. Its just our mentality to be very respectful of others privacy. When Katie Holmes took Suri to a children's amusement park in Toronto no one went near them but allowed them their space. I sat opposite Patrick Swayze at lunch but would never have thought to go and ask for his autograph or photo or disturb his peace.
At the CNE, VM were adored. I know people who went three days just to see them skate and these are not figure skating fans.
Of course as Patrick said its all about hockey here and FS doesnt have so many fans.
WP worked with Shae before they went to Krylova and continued to work with her in off season so that is nothing new. With the baby she will likely do more coaching /choreo and less shows.
Yes, I think that to be the case Emdee. We are just considerably more reticent to approach celebrities here in Canada. I know I am. If they are making themselves available to the public, that's a different story, but out on the street or in a restaurant, it's hands off for most of us here. Don't ya know, we're too polite
People are entitled to their opinions. Pani it's unfortunate that you can't be more positive about v/m and stop reacting to what others say. This is a never ending cycle each season with you.
I think all remeber that intetview with V-M about nobody recognised them i Toronto and they said, its alwayse the same. And yes, i mean Patrick interview.And all remeber reaction on this interview from Canadians.
I dont want to say nothing bad about Canada. Most part of my favorite skaters are from Canada and Orser i think was the first one
But its hard for me to see how canadians support V-M main rivals. Its not like with B-K, when people even ignoer L-A at WCh 2001
And i want to made my point more clear - i dislike people didnt see that speciall. wich V-M have. So they didnt admire this difference and didnt want to see it.
And there are so big D-W group of fans, when V-M have maybe 2-3 fans, when all ltehr s like "o, this teams are the same, dont care who will win".
Sorry, i am positive about V-M, but not postitve about i must be happy with there lose. And V-M are not happy to lose D-W.
You have a point there... V&M don't seem to have the rabid fanbase B&K had. D&W are generally treated with respect. The B&K fans tended to trash their rivals except D&V who were also considered part of the "wuzrobbed" brotherhood. I remember something about the fans at Vancouver telling people to turn around while FP&M skated and not look at them. Oh, those were the days. And the battles with G&P at the press conferences and Pasha's aunt bashing Shae-Lynn... just epic.
I don't know why it's different with V&M but I'm sure it's not because B&K were better skaters. A major reason is probably that V&M are friends with D&W and have never dissed them, while Shae-Lynn was pretty vocal about her feelings of being robbed. Maybe the Canadian fans are just taking their cues from what they see in V&M's interviews ("we need to work on our levels, Meryl & Charlie are so talented, we enjoy going head to head with them" etc). Even V&M and D&W themselves, sometimes, are so polite that it makes it seem like they agree that they are both equal and whoever skates best on the day should win.
We know that they don't really believe this (I'm sure D&W don't either) and Scott let it slip a little when he said V&M were the most artistic team of the past 10 years. But it's not enough to say it, they're actually displaying it with Carmen, which is winning over many experts and hardcore dance fans. They're separating themselves from the pack now.
I will be very upset if Carmen loses at any event, to any team, but it hasn't happened yet and I concern myself with head-to-head battles, not scores.
I agree. Its really sad that VM dont have more fans. They are such a special team. I remember the ovations they got at the Olys so I know there are fans but they are more restrained and spread out and not very vocal.
I think interest in skating is down somewhat and I think that the rabid fanbase was created by the wuzrobbed by BK and everyone around them.
At one point they had won the GPF and everyone felt their next step would be Wch but then nothing happened there.
Me too! Counting the days to the GPF.
The more I watch V/M's SD, the more I like it. Tessa is especially interesting -- interesting movements, and intense characterization. Once they have a coherent storyline, I think this SD will really take off. I'm excited to see what they do in this time before GPF!
My feelings exactly. What's also very special is the way the music fills the arena when you watch the program live. It really captures you.
I dance in a group that does a lot of performing around Stampede time - big and small events. This past summer we danced at a charitable event for 'Meals on Wheels". I noticed an attractive blonde woman just quietly visiting with people in the crowd. I saw no entourage, no media, and it took me a few minutes to realize that she looked familiar because she is the wife of the Prime Minister of Canada. There was no crowd around her seeking her attention and she could have been the woman next door. I'm sure there must have been secret service around her but they were certainly not obvious. I might add that her husband represents a Calgary constituency and if they are well known anywhere it should be here. I guess I mention that because I think this may be unique to Canada. I know Tessa and Scott and Patrick are not rock stars like Yu Na or Mao in their own country but I think that could be a blessing in some ways. They are free to go about their business without wearing disguises or being constantly hounded. I do agree Pani, we could do more to show Tessa and Scott how much we appreciate them. Canada is the land of "The Good Old Hockey Game" and that is where the hearts of a lot of the country lie. However, I do think as a country we cherish each and every olympic medal, no matter the colour. Many of the fans here are quite knowledgeable about figure skating and I do feel they have enormous love and respect for Virtue and Moir.
Yes, that was the times of craz love to FS. I remeber Morozov talked they couldnt stay at hotels in Canada, because people were crazy about Shae-Lynn
Like Kurt said in that movie about Patrick - in his time skaters could made money, but not nowday.
In Russia even childrens didnt pay for praticie, ice, costumes, skates. In Canada even OGM didnt get prize money and didnt get a lot of money. Its sad. Maybe thats why a lot of young people lost there motivation.
And i am happy T-S after all this still skating and wish to get gold for Canada.
I get the feeling that this time, they want to get the gold for themselves.
Ahhhh. I remember my first post on FSU when I went on a rant about B&K bashers. The food ol days!
I equate V&M to Klimova & Ponomarenko and D&W to Usova & Zhulin. 2 fabulous teams that are stunning to watch. I don't think I am a bad Canadian because I like and appreciate Davis & White. Their SD is really cute and fun and their FD is very mature and precise.
Virtue & Moir are the most artistic team of the last 10 years... I would actually say they are the most artistic since Anissina & Peizerat retired in 2002 but I would place them well above A&P in potential. I still think Carmen is just a glimpse into what they are really capable of.
You are. Because you didnt even try to see difference and try to understand.
I like one russian fan (not V-M, but FS), that V-M its elite shop and D-W is budgetary supermarket
And yes, people love supermarkets much more and its not bad.
I think Zhulin will be angry if he will know he and Maia were equate to D-W with all his "love" to this team.
I too was surprised at the comparison to Zhulin - somehow I see T&S being a combination of the two the connection of K&P with the artistic side of U&Z.
D&W are so technical and so cold. In some ways to me more like B&K. While I adored Shae, I felt they lacked a connection.
Just want ask you, guys. Did Tessa ll time smiled during FD at CoR?
This. Not that U/Z were shabby in the connection department either, but yes, V/M definitely remind me of a combination of K/P and U/Z. U/Z are still my favorite skaters ever, and I just can't see much of anything they and D/W have in common. I would definitely say that D/W are more similar to B/K.
Any person could see, what she/he want to see. I said this only because all knew what Zhulin thinking bout D-W, thats all
Excuse me but frankly I can like whom I want to and not have to rationalize who I like to others simply for being 'Canadian'. What am I not understanding...that I don't see in cold absolutes like you do? That the sun and moon do not rise for me around Virtue & Moir? That I can love Carmen but also love Hunchback of Notre Dame? People can like both teams and still be big fans of both teams. We don't have to trash the competition to validate great skaters or programs. I prefer Virtue & Moir and think they will be and are legends in this sport.
K&P and U&Z were both fabulous skaters. D&W and V&M are fabulous teams. D&W ARE artistic skaters... they also are consistent technicians. Virtue & Moir are musical and artistic skaters...they are also great technical skaters. Do I want Virtue & Moir to win in London...yes. Would I love to see them retain their Olympic title as well...yes. But if they make mistakes... I totally get how D&W can and would beat them. Both teams skating clean programs... as of right now I think Virtue & Moir should win.
i guess you missed Pani's irony..
btw there's no need to always make so much drama out of her posts or to repeat nth times to be fan of both teams because no one is forcing to be fan of one only. you know, this kind of discussion is getting a little boring
I also don't think U&Z are an apt comparison to D&W. U&Z were very slinky and balletic which is not the style I associate with D&W. They are maybe a little more like the Duschesnays, but without Dean's choreography.
I think Twilight was just trying to give an example of an era in which there were two excellent dance teams, and one dominated over the other, but the other one was still much beloved by fans and has a well-regarded legacy. She's saying that enjoying D&W's skating takes nothing away from V&M, just like being a fan of U&Z takes nothing from K&P.
Does anybody else remember the infamous "Why Does Everybody Hate B&K?" thread. Those were the days. LOL
It's true that it's possible to love more than one top team at a time; I've often found myself in that position in the past. Having two (or more) or your favorite teams competing head to head against one another.
However conversely, people aren't always going to love both teams that are competing for one spot and it's not always because due to "sinister" reasons; because someone has an ultimate favorite team that no one is supposed to defeat.
I don't hate D&W; contrary to what a couple of people might think I never have. It's just that while I have loved icedancing the most out of all disclipines the dance teams I've found go into two categories. My favorites who come out almost year after year with programs that I like/love or teams who while not favorites have had a few programs that I've liked/loved more than most of their usual work. I also appreciate the althletic ability of those skaters. D&W fit into that second group. I really like D&W's OD and find their Notre Dame FD more interesting than anything they have done since Samson & Delilah. Their is something though that is keeping me from totally jumping on board with the FD as I have the SD; maybe by the end of the season.
I think there have only been one or two dance teams whom I did not care for and D&W is not one of them.
I think part of the issue is that some (this isn't directed towards you Twilight) feel that those of us who don't think D&W are equal to V&M are saying this out of some misplaced protectiveness towards V&M. I realize that these days the meaning of certain words seem to mean different things to different people (not only in figureskating) but I don't feel that D&W are particularly artistic. I find them to be very talented althletes with the ability to perform some of the most difficult elements in the world. They are also very fast and despite V&M's improvement in that area still have the best dance spins in the field.
I'm not saying that to be mean or disagreeable but this is what I see when I look at D&W. V&M have really stepped forward this season (they just need to amp up the level of their performances) and should be preparing to distance themselves from the rest of the field. Some pretty major names in the icedance world have said the same. These are people who aren't neccesarily in the same category as we dancefans and have no other connections to V&M. There are no ulterior motives in those people saying giving praise to not only the Carmen FD but the skating skills and the overall package V&M have. Those comments make me feel as if I am not entirely off base.
ITA about V&M being extemely artistic although I'd say that DenStavs and DelShoes were very artistic/creative in their own rights. That said, I'm not sure that as much as I love many of those teams programs, either team has ever had a SD or FD that was as widely praised throughout the icedance World. And even V&M have had to grow into their artistry. The potential has always been there, they only needed a "Carmen" to bring it to fruition.
Despite my feeling this way, I realize others are clearly seeing something different. There are certain aspects of icedance that will always be subjective however their are some that are not.
You are echoing exactly what I think. Thanks.
Did I start that thread? I can't remember... I know I was a more vocal B&K fan.
Cherub721- that was exactly what I was meaning.
Canadinas cannot even buy bugetary bunners so what hope we have for elite bunners. You are correct D-W is budgetary supermarket but it sell elite food also
V-M can get more fans if they walk in front of this supermarket and streets because people love it. then people will recognise. They need to have lot off fans for WCh. Zhulin can come and give support and love. He will bring own Russian bunners then all buner problem solve
I just had to click, and it turns out it's actually based in Michigan...
I love you. Lol.
Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2
Yep, the skating season is well underway!
Hi! After a while of lingering here, I decided to finally post something
Adding on to the debate Canadians' appreciation for them, I can say based on my experiences that they do receive a lot of support. When I went to the CNE show this summer, the arena was packed. And this was on a random weekday. For an arena to be THAT full, especially when they did two shows a day for almost 2 weeks, that's support. And I guarantee you that most were not huge figure skating fans, but VM got far more, and louder, cheers than any of the other amazing acts. I think that it shows that they are well known and have a lot of recognition.
So anyway, my seeing them at CNE is what made me become a big fan. I remember seeing them on TV during the Olympics and admiring their grace and beauty. Then, they showed the clip of Scott tricking Tessa with their placement, and it made me love them a bit more. I kept an eye out for them the past few years, and when I saw they were coming to my city, I just jumped at the chance. Needless to say, seeing them in person just strengthened my love for them and here I am
Nice to see you here ofdarkness. Great 1st post.
I'm not even sure what "equal" means in this context -- or if it means anything at all. You've just acknowledged that the different teams have different strengths and weaknesses. But we're talking about the two top teams in the world, both of whom have spent years collecting medals left and right and beating every other team in sight. If that doesn't make them as "equal" as any two teams can be, I don't know what does.
The real problem with all this talk about being "equal" or "not equal" is that it leads some fans to think that, every time their favorite team gets beat, it could ONLY be because of some kind of fraud. And that's hardly a pleasant or constructive (or realistic) attitude.
It's different because v/m have not been defeated and no judging scandals.
Also the teams today are much more respectful and decent towards each other. Most seem friendly towards each other which was hardly the case back in those days(or maybe they are just good actors today) Seriously though on that note it got me thinking, during the B&K, G&P etc days did they have press conferences like they do today after events? Cause that would've been interesting...very interesting.
Oh gosh yes... I googled and found some gems...
When the question perioid was opened up for the assembled journalists,
a womank--whose accreditation pass was tucked inside her sweater so it
couldn't be seen---directed her comments in a combination of German
and English to Canadians Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz, who stand
second to Grishuk and her partner Evgeny Platov.
"Why is so your timing so slow in your jive, it is so far from rock
and roll?" the woman asked.
A visibly shaken Bourne replied, "I don't know how to answer you. I
thought these were supposed to be questions, not statements."
Then the Canadians' coach, Russian-born Natalia Dubova, who had been
fuming at the back of the room, stood up to point out that the alleged
reporter was a relative of Grishuk's. Her aunt, as it turns out.
Dubova was once the coach of Grishuk and Platov.
An ISU official later discovered that the woman, who did not give her
name, was accredited not as a reporter but as a chaperone.
After the conference Bourne was close to tears and Kraatz said that
the attack felt like "getting kicked in the (bleep)."
To say these Canadians don't get along with the Russians would be an understatement. At the Champions Series Finals, the couples bickered.
Grishuk said she could do the Canadians' "Riverdance" routine in a heartbeat. One of Grishuk's relatives even got into the fray by lambasting the Canadians for their original-dance piece.
The relative, who was wearing a press pass, claimed the Canadians weren't dancing to rock and roll. The Canadian couple responded that the Beatles are, indeed, rock 'n' roll.
"It seems like every year the Russians pick the same kind of TC music and the same kind of programs," Kraatz said.
"They pick that slow, sad music. It seems like all they have to do different is change the expression on their faces."
Not sure if this is a press conference, but comments after the Nagano FD
The winners' former coach, Natalia Dubova, now guiding Canadians Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz - we'll get to them in a moment - ripped the two-time Olympic champions.
"I always asked myself, `What do they do for me?' " Dubova said. "They don't improve the sport. They should do something to improve the sport. All I remember is (Jayne) Torvil and (Christopher) Dean improved the sport."
Grishuk wasn't surprised by the remark. Dubova, after all, sided with Maia Usova when Grishuk had an affair with Usova's ice partner and husband, Aleksandr Zhulin, six years ago.
Grishuk's latest fray is with silver medalists Anjelika Krykova and Oleg Ovsyannikov, who suggested they were the best team yesterday.
"The public likes us better," Krykova said. "I think we had a better program overall."
The subtleties could not be overlooked. Krykova and Ovsyannikov kept calling Grishuk "Oksana," her first name until she changed it so fans wouldn't confuse her with Oksana Baiul, the 1994 Olympic figure skating champion.
When a Russian reporter called Grishuk, "Oksana," she interrupted.
"It's Pasha," she said.
While Dubova couldn't resist chastising Grishuk, she was more concerned with the judging of her pair, who finished fourth. She didn't notice the irony of a former Muscovite living in Lake Placid, N.Y., criticizing the "Eastern Bloc of judges."
"Ice dancing is not a sport," she complained, perhaps the first sane statement of the evening. "Something must be done. When five of them (judges) are from the East Bloc, it is easy for them to work together."
Judges from Poland, Lithuania, the Ukraine, the Czech Republic and Russia were accused of cutting back-room deals before the dancers competed.
Bourne, who complained about being judged below bronze medalists Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat of France, said, "The Olympics are all about the survival of the fitness. It's about true games and sport. That's not what ice dancing is right now. It's about off the ice.
"I don't feel awful at all. It's more like a joke than anything. All I can do is laugh about it. It's so stupid."
Some felt that way about the couple's routine performed to "Riverdance."
Peizerat also took exception. When asked if he thought the bronze medal should have been shared, he responded, "What's the point of the question? Should there be a tie? Two bronze medals? I don't think so."
Thank you so much for those gems. I'm LMAO reading the articles. Remember the "ice dance sex scandal" special made about U&Z and G&P on T.V.? It's on youtube. Ah, sex scandals, partner swaps, name changes, platinum blonde hair, violet dyed boots, fake reporters harassing skaters...
Thanks Cherub! I remember hearing about most of this drama, and it's actually quite funny to read now, back then as a B&K fan I was livid of course, but I wasn't sure it was press conferences that it had happened at so thanks for the clarity. That must have been so awkward but man I wish we had some videos of it though Maybe that's the reason everyone is so civil today , they know it will be on youtube 20 minutes later.
Here's another question/observation with all the drama back then I always noticed K/O managed to stay out of it, or at least it seemed that way. I always liked them. I never heard anything about them, no accusations, no name calling, unless I missed something?
Good point on the youtube thing!
Yeah, I haven't heard much about K&O in that respect either. Maybe they were just a little smarter and more subtle... I was about Krylova correcting the reporter and saying "Oksana" not "Pasha"... effing brilliant.
Separate names with a comma.