Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    While Pani may be confrontational in her presentation and sometimes get carried away in her angst she makes a lot of valid points. She says things outright that some of us only think or feel below the surface.
  2. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    You really like to play dumb, don't you, pani? How is liking both teams the same as saying that they are of the same level? But they are rivals - because of the marks that they get. It's plain and simple.

    D-W party, huh? When I have stated many times that I like Tessa and Scott more? I even wrote that I always want them to win, and that is true. And where do you see someone saying that Charlie is better than Dean, and Meryl better than Grishuk?

    But I am sure that I'll get another playing dumb reply. Because it would be impossible for you to admit that you were wrong about something.
  3. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    I just want to wish our U.S. friends a Happy Thanksgiving today :)
  4. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Happy Thanksgiving to all our American friends.

    I agree that Pani makes some valid points, the scoring for instance. But you could say you think VM are the better skaters without trivializing the work of others, that is not very nice. Who are we to judge this people by their work ethics we think they have? Their social status? It is rude. I do not like DW as skaters, but I can't cross the line and get personal. I don't even know them, so why do it?
    Anyway, can we go back to the insightful Carmen discussion? That's much more enjoyable :) How would you guys improve the diagonal step sequence and the final lift so that it doesn't look as labored?

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  5. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware of any diagonal step sequences looking laboured. The final choreographic lift will just have to be a wait and see as they do more run throughs throughout the season but I think the position is important to the story. I think with the details of this program and the time that will be needed to perfect it there isn't really anything that stands out as not belonging or needing to be replaced. They are going to continue working with Swan throughout the season and unlike Funny Face and their SD last season where it was easy to see what Marina should change I feel that this year what they are doing is art and I kind of want to leave it to them and Swan to finish their creation. It almost feels as wrong as it would be to tell Picasso not to use so much blue :D
  6. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    Pani's purpose is very seldom to daringly speak truth when others are too shy, and much more frequently to deliberately bait D/W fans and make straw men or ad hominem arguments against V/M fans who don't fall into her lockstep. Generally if you fall into one of those categories (or, frankly, most others), you're better off avoiding engaging her in a debate of constantly moving targets. Though I certainly understand the desire to rebut.

    And happy Thanksgiving to the American posters. :)
  7. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Like you notice, pani is not here. So feel free to cross the line and talk about Pani, like she is your best friend :D
    Bye-bye! :)
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  8. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    No, not the diagonal; I meant the lift. Like you, I feel everything is where it should be and nothing should be altered. But I still do not know, for instance, why they got that level 2 in Russia. So I was wondering what can be done to make that diagonal step sequence perhaps flow better and how to make that last lift look less labored. I am thinking that perhaps the problem is (a) the speed and (b) the intro. Not saying they should change it, but maybe if they had more breathing room between the two final lifts or added a transition into the choreo lift that would make him go faster and help her gain more momentum? I am against changing that lift, though. It's absolutely gorgeous and I think they know this. I think they know their lifts this season have garnered a lot of buzz.
  9. Alixana

    Alixana recovering Oly-holic

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    Yep .. and I literally have done this :biggrinbo when I think of Worlds (if I'm alone :lol: )
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  10. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I would do that too, among other things, if I could walk to Worlds. :D
  11. marikat

    marikat Active Member

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  12. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    After many years of reading and posting in these threads, I feel that pani becomes frustrated at times and then resorts to sarcasm to make her points. Unfortunately this often causes her message to be lost or disregarded. A different rhetorical strategy might work better, but that is just my humble opinion. None of my business I suppose, however I appreciate pani's contributions (and I'd like to continue to hear them, ideally without the thread imploding ;)).

    JMO. Onward and upward.

    Nice photos from V/M's visit to Parliament and glad to see they received the Queen's Jubilee medal. Congrats to them.
  13. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you flowerpower. I think the implosions that follow are often more of a disturbance to the thread.

    So, when is the GPF and will Margaglio have enough time away from the Finland to spend in Canton working on the YP :D ;)
  14. Judy

    Judy New Member

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  15. puglover

    puglover Active Member

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    I totally agree flowerpower - well said.
  16. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Mwa mwa XXX ... love and kisses to Tessa and Scott, I look forward to see their Carmen wins the FS at worlds, with hopefully a clean performance with a new WR to seal the legendary program in the making. I want their PCS shoot right up and and where they deserve. Come on judges!!

    I wish for T/S and Patrick (I am surprised.. he is right there with Jeremy Abbott) wins the championship this year, I am sick of all the bashing I hear about them, when they are clearly different caliber of skaters all together that looks to do something beyond the COP. The love, attention, work ethics and the expressions are all on ice, it is just amazing. Good work lasts forever, competitions results? It is only temporary.
  17. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    ITA that Virtue & Moir are different caliber skaters. They are and will be legends in this sport... like A&P, G&P, K&P and T&D.
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  18. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    Does anyone have the link to vid for D/W SD, please? Also, does anyone have explanation for why none of the elite skaters are getting their levels in YP?
  19. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    The YP pattern is difficult, as many skaters have mentioned in interviews. The choctaw with the leg-crossing that T&S kept practising at the CoR gala is especially tricky, I think.

    Here's Meryl and Charlie's SD:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVkUazHThbY
  20. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    For my own personal understanding I looked up what is is the trickiest parts to the yankee polka and found this... I haven's ice danced in years... and never did any compulsory dances so I hope I interpreted the steps correctly :shuffle:

    according to the usfsa site

    Section 1-
    Steps 12-13 is a key area turn where the woman needs to make a clean left back inside edge to the right forward inside edge. The man needs to make a clean Left back inside edge to a right back outside edge (x3).
    Steps 22-24 is key where the woman needs to have clean edges, make the correct turn, correct placement of the free foot and the free leg crossed in front of the skating leg. (It is the left forward inside edge, closed choctaw, right back outside edge to left back inside edge)
    Steps 22-24 for the man requires the correct edges of left forward inside edge, closed choctaw to right back outside edge to left back inside edge same as the woman. The judges are looking for the exact same clean edged, correct turn and correct free foot and leg placement.

    Section 2-
    Steps 32-33- The woman and man need to do the correct edges and turns. She is doing the right forward inside(3) to left forward outside rocker and he is doing the left forward inside(x3) to the right forward outside
    Steps 38-40- The woman and man need to have the correct edges and turns with the woman doing the right forward inside, right forward inside (x3) to left forward outside swing steps. The man is doing the right back outside edge (x3), left forward outside swing to right forward inside (x3)

    So based on these key areas, section 2 seems to be the more difficult pattern where the couples need to make sure the edges are clean and precise.

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU 1... 2012-13.pdf
  21. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    thank you both for all info. Iona thanks so much for vid. Love your posts :respec:
  22. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I´m going to say something controversial but having watched that SD a few times now I think it's beatable. It left a much bigger impression on me at SA and I still think the concept of the dance is brilliant but I'm not seeing any improvement from SA. Maybe my expectations were too high but I expected with the weeks in between SA and NHK and working with Alex Wong for a lot of improvement in their lines and interpretation. Will be interesting to see all the teams side by side at the GPF (shame W&P won't make it as I think they belong there :()
  23. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    ITA that Weaver and Poje should be at the GPF instead of a team like I&K who have craptacular programs this season. I can hope that a couple or 2 drop out so W&P can go but I seriously doubt it. Maybe this will light their fire so that the technical comes up on their skating in time for me to see them in London.
  24. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Twilight1, Thanks for restating the YP key points.

    This video of V&M
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC626upyaBA

    is labelled with the step numbers, for anyone trying to figure out the key points
    (I find the YP very tricky to watch myself and actually whether anyone has hit a key point or not. I would have to run it by Sloooooo, and even then I wouldn't trust my calls. I can do the Blues, Rhumba, or the Golden with no trouble, but the YP is too fast for me so far.)
  25. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Maxim Staviyski mentioned V&M in his latest interview

    The dance [I&K's FD] is well choreographed, they do everything they should, but it's just not my style. I just don't like it as much as, say, Virtue/Moir's `Carmen'. Or the last year or the 2 years ago Pechalat/Bourzat's programmes. Or Menshov's programmes.

    To sum it up - it's a good young pair. They should work really hard and pay attention to their elements execution. As for their current level - I think it's uncomparable to the Canadians. I think they are in a different leagues. Virtue/Moir lost a bit in their technical ability after leaving Spilband, but as far as the skating and the choreography goes I think they are miles ahead of everyone. There isn't a single pair that could currently compete with them
  26. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    i see some improvements in the way Meryl Davis moves, she seems more graceful. yes, it's everything well put and they hit the beats with precision. music is not my cup of tea and emotionally it doesn't speak to me, but i guess with this program is about the Shpilband-esque technical beauty I mentioned some time ago. for the most part this looks like a technical program.
    of course, being the romantic type I prefer And the waltz goes on :)
  27. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Gongrats to all! This was amazing! Why they didnt get WR? The best team off all times. At last there hard work paid off and judges notice this. Whe other team didnt nothing and stay on one place over the years. I hope V-M will be out of the podium - they didnt let best couple of the Universary to get all attention. I never saw suhc an amazing couple, skating, dancing.
    One more time- congrats and have great party! I will post in this thread the best quality video of D-W FD ;)
  28. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    Lol. They didn't stay in character this time.

    Also, I'm fine with the score. The sooner this peaks, the better.

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  29. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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  30. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    What happened to not caring about the scores? ;)

    Am I the only one completely okay about this? I hope I'm not.

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  31. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I'm also okay with this. I think D&W skated the lights out at NHK and deserved the score given the competition (97 for I/K?? :lol:)

    I will start worrying if V/M and D/W are both clean at GPF and D/W outscore V/M substantially. Tessa and Scott really need to hit those levels!
  32. Golightly

    Golightly Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see I-K, but that seems rather high. Any improvements?

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  33. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

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    I'm cool with it :)

    Thanks for importing Staviyski's comments on VM Cherub. I love hearing feedback, ANY feedback be it positive or not, from skaters and coaches. It's a different kind of insight. VM sure seem to have some fans that are the Russian "greats"...Zhulin, Krylova, Tarasova, who else...
  34. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Meryl and Charlie get on 5 points better with the same levels only in FD. V-M never skate clean, all know about this. M-C get so many 10th, hope at GPF they will have all 10. :swoon: V-M could only show romantic connection - thats all. Maeryl-Charlie made all elements far better and they work SO hard.
    This is best day for ice dance.
  35. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong. Russian LOVE Meryl and Charlie. TAT want to send letter to ISU after last season WCh. Krylove spend a lot of time with Meryl in Nice. They all said after FD during friend meeting Meryl-Charlie must won WCh.
    How could you tell this? All understand M-C are far better
  36. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    I think it's a shame that it's gotten to the point that trying to objectively critique something about D&W should be considered controversial. I've said before (I'm not the only one) that with other teams (V&M included) it is okay to discuss the good, the bad and everything in between but for some reason in this quadrennial D&W are off limits unless it's praise.

    While I think pani can go a little OTT at times I get where she is coming from. At times there does seem to be the feeling that the judges and others are holding them up as being unbeatable (I'll probably get creamed for that) while the other teams including Scott and Tessa have to be at 200% at all times in order to get the marks they need/deserve. Or at least at times it seems that way.

    I do actually really like D&W's SD this season which is a pleasant surprise for me. I haven't been able to jump onboard with some D&W praise since the Bollywood OD. Now Giselle IMHO certainly isn't on the same level as Bollywood creatively but it is good. Very charming and I feel D&W/Marina found another vehicle that showcases D&W's strengths while making a program that looks like more than another technical excersize with bland choreography.

    That said I agree with you that Giselle is beatable. I realize that style wise some may prefer the more rousing, fast paced programs that D&W are good at but that doesn't mean that V&M's Waltz isn't a standout in it's own right. I love the Waltz SD from V&M just as much as Carmen and the mood it sets while still having loads of great movement. Like Carmen, there is just so much to look at; very few open spaces and many gorgeous highlights. Once V&M become more comfortable with their programs I still feel that this season they are the top team. Or should be. I realize others feel differently and that is okay too.

    IMO this is what D&W excel at and when I step aside from critiquing Giselle as a competitive piece I really like and enjoy watching it.

    But again like you, I have a slight preference for V&M's Waltz. Both of V&M's programs have so much more to them than being almost all about being excellent technicians which they are that as well. I find that sometimes when two teams are competing against one another, if one team is seen as the technicians then the other is instantly labeled the artists. I remember that happened with the N&K and DenStavs rivalry as well.

    There have been a few teams who are both and V&M like DenStavs are one of those teams. They might not be quite as fast as D&W but they really aren't that much slower either. V&M's programs also have had just as much difficulty as those of D&W.

    Scott and Tessa have really outdone themselves this season and I want to see their programs skated the way we know they can skate them. I realize this may take until the end of the season to happen especially with the difficulty packed within both programs and after last season, we've seen that it probably won't hurt V&M if they don't win the GPF title but I admit that I want that for them. Purely on a selfish fan level. It's the one major title Tessa and Scott don't have yet. If the Waltz and Carmen can't win them that title, I don't know what will.

    I do agree though that with D&W, they show up at the beginning of the season looking so well trained that they seem to peak earlier. The difference between them at the beginning and end of the season isn't as drastic as it is for V&M or even a team like P&B. There isn't much more D&W can do except fine tune what they have and just keep skating clean.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
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  37. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Can't say I'm "okay", but I did expect it. To be fair, they skated that program with tons of energy.
    I completely resent the fact that, even with a polished "Carmen", the two FDs will still be close in scores. But, as Tessa said after WTT... "that's figure skating".;)

    Pani, deep breaths and take it easy.:D Looong way to go until London.

    Agreed with your whole post.
    Tessa and Scott have a bit less speed, but more amplitude and better ice coverage. When you watch them live, it's absolutely obvious. Not to mention finishing every move - but we know that doesn't count for much anymore.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  38. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

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    Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is? I get the same feeling too. I'm not super studied up on the break down of PCS, but shouldn't line/toe point/finished movement be covered under at least one of those categories? Moving to all disciplines now, I'm constantly surprised by how the judges aren't reflecting floppy form and throwaway movements in their PCS. Are SS just all about speed?
  39. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Those things you list should be covered under the SS requirements, theoretically: "elegant and precise steps/turns". And under PE: "elegant/sophisticated style", "refined line of body and limbs". I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.:)
    The word "form" isn't mentioned anywhere in the criteria.
  40. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I cant breaths and take it easy after i see the best of the best in the history.
    FD even better, then SD - they get seven 10th. Jusat amazing.
    V-M choreo and interpretation is so bad compare to this.
    I dont care about London - all understand, Meryl it... Dancers like her was born one time in 1000 years. But i am so happy i will see all 10th in GPF for best ever.
    The only questing - nobody care what you skate, but more care about how you do this. So i cant understand why Virtue with all her health problems try to skate Carmen, when full of health best ice dance team in history didnt try to show nothinbg even close to this. And this made them look so much better!
    Party for everybody, dance :sheep: