Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    These are from a couple of years ago, right? Emily and Evan were still there, and Tessa and Scott look younger, I think. Scott especially.

    Also, nice to read those praises from Tatiana Navka.
     
  2. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i think it was, when Emily and Evan still skating together and Zach Donahue were in Igos and Marina group :)
    Yes, Navka love them ;)
     
  3. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/144696467.html

    Is someone able to translate this better than Google Translate?
     
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I could say she said she in delight from them, she impressed, how good they work together, impressed by there relationships with ice, music, programs. Looks like they simply don't hear what is going around. Emotions overflowed her from the beginning and up to the end. V-M is skating at there own level at her opinion.
    I can tell you, that Staviisky said in his opinion V-M have best programs this season and nobody could be close to them even if all see they have some technikal problems this season. He prise Carmen really high.
    And Zhulin said Camen i very good, new, interesting. But V-M couldnt show it in best light and have some technika problems.
     
  5. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Guys, did someone have link to V-M interview after FD at CoR? And maybe SD?
     
  6. ddtpdx

    ddtpdx New Member

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  7. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    If not so much with the technical difficulty, I do feel that creatively/artistically icedance was better pre-CoP.

    I actually loved B&K's Adagio FD and they also benefitted from the fact that A&P had retired and L&A practically gave away the title with their FD so B&K were able to take advantage of being the next in line. There were some excellent teams right behind them but those teams (DenStavs, DelShoes and D&L) hadn't really become as good as they would be. Well, I thought that DenStavs programs from 01/02 and 02/03 were better than they were given credit for. Especially DenStavs' Baroque OD.

    Also pre-CoP we had (going backwards) A&P, K&O, Grishuk/Platov, U&Z, Moniotte/Lavanchy, Rahkamo/Kokko, Annenko/Stretenski, Drobiasko/Vanagas, Silverstein/Pekarek, Sharutenko/Naumkin and Romanuite/Barantsev among others.

    Of course what you felt about those teams and their program choices would influence whether or not you agree with icedance being better (in some ways) pre-CoP. Up until now especially post Vancouver, I just don't think that the SD's or FD's have been at the same level of a number of the programs of the recent and distant past. While techncially more challenging, most post 09/10 programs were more like the singles programs; connect the elements with forgettable content.

    All this is naturally INHO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  8. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby Member

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    Do you have any information about the documentary that is supposed to be filmed about Teassa and Scott. Are they still filming it or is it already finished?
     
  9. marikat

    marikat Active Member

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    The only thing I know is that it's going to be aired on CBC in March 2013.
     
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Like Carmen, I feel the need to step in and defend the pre-CoP skaters. I would rather watch those teams than Delobel/Schoenfelder, Davis/White, and Domnina/Shabalin, though mileage varies greatly, of course. Navka/Kostomarov were not exactly what I would call one of the great Russian teams either, although their material under CoP was better than under 6.0. As Carmen pointed out, that era included G&P, A&P, and K&O also.

    Personally I like ice dance better from 1996-2004 than 2004-2012. (I'm not even going to include teams like U&Z, T&D, and K&P because it's not fair to compare less than 10 years of CoP to the entire history of ice dancing before CoP.) From 2004-12 the only all time great couples, for me, were Denkova/Staviyski and Virtue/Moir, and DenSta's aesthetic is really developed from their 6.0 days anyway so for me the issue is that V&M actually transcend the new system rather than the new system being better. And one of the reasons I like V&M so much is that they have the qualities that I find missing in many skaters under the new system: the ability to interpret music and different dances, beautiful positions, matching lines, lifts and footwork that go with the music, emotion, and even voids now. :D I couldn't care less about their twizzles, although they are really great.

    As you mentioned "what you might be missing," I will point out the two things that really stand out for me as being different in this era. You don't have to agree, but maybe this will shed some light on why those of that prefer 6.0 feel this way. ;)

    -The ODs were sooo much better during that period IMO. Watch FP&M's 2000 OD; it's better than anything in 2006 or 2012 by far when it comes to ballroom authenticity (if not elements). Watch L&A's jive from 1998. They actually had room to breathe and add in steps that worked with the music. These teams always had great ODs and were able to interpret all styles of music. I also loved L&A's foxtrot/quickstep, tango/flamenco, and waltz. FP&M were also particularly good in the jive and the foxtrot/quickstep, but were really good at everything.

    -I really miss the days when the lower ranked teams were as entertaining as the top teams. I can look at the waltz OD in 1999 or the Spanish OD in 2002 and I like almost every single couple's interpretation; now I'm lucky if I find 3-5 dances I like per year. Lower ranked teams like Winkler & Lohse, Lang & Tcherynshev, Dubreil & Lauzon, Drobiazko & Vanagas, Chait & Sakhnovsky all had their own very distinctive styles and interesting programs. Nowadays the lower ranked teams are more about finding a nice song and then working on having the best elements they can do. Very few take creative risks.

    I can agree that a lot of the skaters on the list are not as good of skaters as the CoP skaters. That's the trade off. Under the CoP both partners have to be good, you have to have difficult lifts and execute them well, you have to have difficult steps and actually hit the edges to make them count, you have to have difficult variations on the twizzles... and some of the 6.0 teams would have struggled with that. However, the contrast to that is the rules were looser and they had the freedom to come up with lifts and footwork that made them look good, while fitting the music and theme, and I think they had more time between the elements to do choreography. That's why many of us prefer the old style, but a technique purist might prefer today's ice dance better because both partners can actually skate.

    Also one thing to keep in mind with the specific teams you mentioned (FP&M, L&A, and B&K) is that was a transition period in ice dance. It wasn't CoP, but they were just starting to include twizzles, spins, and no touch footwork sequences. They probably hadn't a clue that they would ever need to do those things to be considered good ice dancers, and didn't have time to catch up technically before they retired.

    Sorry for the long post... I never miss the opportunity to go on a tangent about old school ice dance... :shuffle:
     
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  11. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    If I may add my 2 cents and just say both eras had/have great teams and not so great. I feel like with dance more than any other discipline under COP it's like apples and oranges when you compare the past and present. I think it's why I love V/M 'Carmen' this season it's like 'old school' meets COP and it works brilliantly. Dance in the past was nothing if not 'entertaining' and at some point I feel all those teams you mentioned did have some great programs and while I prefer COP simply because it makes it more of a sport and I feel ice dance would not survive today without it, I can appreciate the past and I do remember it fondly.... when it doesn't make me wanna pull my hair out.:D
     
  12. martyross

    martyross Active Member

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    in Pre-COP era, sexual moves like T&S's in Carmen would have appeared strange or even "shocking"?
     
  13. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    I find that pre COP there were dancers who had that incredible connection. Now I find only V&M are at that level.

    Many others skate like two persons on the ice together. Technically good but otherwise wanting. I see that various others now are trying to build that connection.

    Like others have said the beauty of Carmen is that they have pushed the sport techinically and artistically.
     
  14. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Hey, I love discussing old school ice dance & pairs!. :cheer:

    But, back onto the topic of V&M, this might have been discussed to death already (sorry, I haven't read the last few pages of the thread), but I'm not really understanding what people are finding "shocking" or "controversial" about Tessa & Scott's lifts in Carmen. :confused: Personally I really like the lift sequence.
     
  15. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Volosozhar-Trankov blog. Something about T-S ;)
    http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/volosozhartrankov/389403.html

    Tessa and Scott, like most titled skaters at this event had speach. They said a lot off good words about Russia, competition organization, Scott said "there are always greate banquets in Russia" :D And than Tessa said on pure russian "Thank you! Good night" All were delighted :lol:
    Tanya said Tessa is very quiet, organized girl, when Scott love parties :lol:
     
  16. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    I don't think V&M are doing anything that is actually all that shocking or controversial, but I think that because it's them and they have a reputation of being a more romantic-themed team that some of their moves seem more titilating. I think it's also a matter of... intent. Scott's hand has been on Tessa's thigh a million times, but as a method of maneouvering her during a lift, a spin, etc. By sliding his hand down her body, gripping her thigh, and of course Tessa's cat-that-ate-a-canary expression and reaction, suddenly Scott's hand on Tessa's thigh is sexy. And so the program continues. I like the last lift sequence too -- it's difficult, daring, lightning fast, but yeah, I think it deliberately chooses to have a position that, given the tone of the rest of the program, is going to make plenty of people think sex and power. I say deliberately because looking at the history of V&M's programs, their lifts have elegant poses, even ones that are again built for speed or even ones that could be seen as sensual or sexy. Now, there have been plenty of teams that have also done sexy lifts, elegant or otherwise, but I think it again circles back around to V&M, the 'lovey-dovey' team, unashamedly doing a program that is about sex, obsession, power, seem even more amplified.
     
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  17. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    i don't think it's even that. I think it's that we've gotten used to seeing Disney-esque programs because most teams have either been very young or have been siblings. Now that two skaters are out there acting like adults, it's thrown people into shock. I don't see anything controversial or shocking in V/M's Carmen. For me, past programs (like U&Z's "Blues for Klook") had a more sexual vibe.
     
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  18. Fort

    Fort New Member

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    That's true; the age of ice dancers has skewed much younger with COP. The old wait-your-turn combined with the ability of dancers to remain competitive for a longer period of time, meant that by the time we were witnessing the medalling programs, the dancers were much more mature and able to portray programs that reflected that.
     
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  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I don't find the lifts shocking either. It seems like every time a woman does a split or a man's hand is anywhere near a woman's groin, people are "shocked" :rolleyes: I mean it's a sport; how can people watch pairs and see a woman flying through the air in a short dress and be shocked, just shocked to see her underwear? I guess these people can't watch gymnastics at all because, gasp, they don't even wear skirts and they still do splits! Oh the horror!

    It is always the same story.... C&S' lift in the clown FD was a very upsetting one. The comments on here were very bad and Galit heard about them; someone here even made a fan book to console them. Then there was one of the lifts in B&K's Adagio which went viral (his hand looked to be lodged "up there" - there were photoshops of it all over the net), the C&L lift from their Que Sera Sera OD, and basically anything Grushina and Kohklova did. IMO it's very clear none of these were meant in a provocative way. The positions were done to add difficulty.

    I agree with Fort that the difference here is intent. V&M have been clear what their theme, so any lift position that is suggestive I'm assuming is done with purpose... because EVERYTHING in the dance is done with purpose. That's why it's awesome. It's shocking to see them being so brazen about it. It's nice to see after hearing for years that "North Americans are bringing the class back to ice dance, blah blah blah." It's just so risky, especially for them.
     
  20. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Kokhlova is the exception - she explicitly got her positions from the kamasutra in her Vancouver program. The program was meant to be provocative and suggestive IMO.
     
  21. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

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    This. Like Fort said, in the past, the top ice dance teams were older and that maturity was reflected in their programs. In recent years though, the younger teams possibly coupled with a younger set of fans have led to a lot of Disney-esqe programs (and the expectation that Disney-esqe is the standard).

    I also think compounding the problem with the Canton teams is a tendency by some factions of the various fanbases to try to label/view the skaters themselves as Disney characters. I think it is indeed jarring for some of these people to see V/M doing a mature program that deals with some very adult themes
     
  22. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Thanks Fort and Cherub for the excellent explanations. In addition to the difficulty and great technique, the reason I am enjoying their Carmen so much is because of it's boldness and evocative aspects of the choreography.

    I vaguely remember that. Poor Galit. :fragile: Well, if she's reading this now, C&S are one of my favorite ice dance teams, I enjoy watching their routines on youtube and I think they improved so much over the course of their career. :cheer:
     
  23. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    What's so risky about this? The real risk would have been to do another "first-love" program because then you'd figure they couldn't do anything else.
     
  24. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Emdee: I didn't know that about K&N. That's really cool actually. :D

    Because of the Disney-fication of ice dance that you touched upon. V&M have a certain aesthetic that has cultivated a certain fan base. Everything they have done has been demure. When they won in Vancouver, a lot of people were saying how they have brought ice dancing back to the days of T&D (unfairly discounting two decades of history and many great teams, IMO), how ice dancing used to be trashy and vulgar and how they brought the dancing back and made it classy again. I would have expected these fans would have a very hard time with something as in your face as Carmen (glad it has not been so). Also, honestly, the North American couples in general have more of a squeaky clean vibe, so it would be a risk for any of them to do this. D&L had a little edge to them for a while, but they didn't get on the podium until they start doing wedding programs in virginal white dresses. L&T had the blues and Scorpions FDs (although they weren't really raunchy) and they never made it big internationally. B&A, D&W, and the Shibs are all straightlaced.

    I do see what you mean about the risk of doing another lovey dovey program. I guess they saw it as well and perceived it as a risk to their legacy. In the fan meeting they discussed using "And the Waltz Goes On" as an FD. They probably would've been slammed for that because it would have been too similar to Valse Triste. And rightfully so, because you do expect the leaders to show some versatility. But they could have done a million different programs that were voidy and dramatic without the overt sexuality... stuff like Memorial Requiem that wouldn't carry the risk of actually offending the pearl clutchers.
     
  25. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    I agree. Although I think they really have shown more than once that they can do more than "lovey-dovey": Pink Floyd, Latin FD, Assassination Tango, Farrucas, and, yes, Funny Face - which I see as more of a Broadway-ish character piece than a romance on ice. But you're right that they have been perceived as straight-laced. Even the sensuality in the Latin FD looked like "first love" to those who only wanted to see that.:rolleyes:
     
  26. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    Really? I don't know. Pre-COP had it's own variety of strange and 'shocking' much more than anything today including V/M
    Carmen but JMO.
     
  27. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    The (few) people who became fans of V/M because of their "modest" programs *are* having difficulty with Carmen. However, I believe the majority of V/M fans are fans of their skating, not fans of their modest aesthetic. These fans have been waiting for V/M to do something, anything, really, that capitalizes on their skating and dancing skills. This Carmen is one way of doing that, but truly, if they had picked a program that wasn't "overtly sexual" but showed their skills in a different way, I think people would have been just as pleased.

    I know Marina believes that the "connection" V/M have is what sets them apart, but I'd love to see a non-love program one day. Maybe something akin to the Kerrs' "Muse" program (which I know is also about love, but not the typical romantic stuff Zoueva loves to give to V/M). There are many different ways to express a "connection" between two people.
     
  28. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

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    Every program of theirs capitalized on their skating and dancing skills. Yes, Carmen is the best and most mature so far, but it's not like, until now, they had just stepped on the ice, acted in love and won titles.
     
  29. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    What I mean is that I felt they had much more to give than what their programs in the past have shown. ;)
     
  30. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    V-M are not a siblings so why not to show reall sex on ice? :D Plus nobody could do this better. And they did this much better, then other off-ice couples in ice dance ;) So why they need to play to people without sex, like Kerrs need to do because they are brother and sister team? :rolleyes:
    Yes, V-M have a lot of risk this season. First of all because this FD is most difficult under COP. Any simple step, any simple element. Plus with technikal difficulties they show unusuall modern body movements, which nobody could show in today ice dance. This is V-M territory and they need to play in there own field. Plus they show connection in every point of this FD from start to the end. This is very difficult to do, but they did this. So yes, they have the risk. I am sure they knew a lot of people will be angry, when they will see this sexual moves (especially in USA and we understand why), but they need to show there own "Carmen" and they are on fire in this FD. And for me it was wonder how they feel strong music and drama. This FD show ther versiality.

    I could talk a lot about this FD, yes :D But the main thing where you favorite D-W went after SA - to the ballet dancer from SYTYCD. I am sure they didnt expect to see something so great, like "Carmen" is. I even feel bad for them, because this two never could be V-M and for me its hard to understand, why they try show what they coudnt and never will.
    I think D-W never took the risk to went out from the box, to show something different. Why they need to try show to us unnatural connection? What it was at SA? I think team like D-W need to try to show something like Kerrs did - people without sex show different emotions, not love or relationships between man and woman, becaase its understanding, Charlie have a hard time to look at Meryl.
    So i think teams like Shibs, D-W must took a lot from Kerrs, I agree with this.
    And this is so funny V-M alwayse need to do something for you every time, when D-W didnt need to do this and even this yeat FD for you is amazing and Carmen - nothing speciall. Sorry, i understand you wish support D-W, but why in this thread?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012