Virtue and Moir #22 - To Russia with love

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by martyross, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    You will feel this way in any case, because you are D-W uber. So try to ask Meryl to work on her lines and stop doing ballet
  2. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    Yes, but why do you think D-W uber, who never ask from D-W even to try to dance on ice, will see this? :D Just ignore. Disney its all about D-W its understanding.
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,887
    ITA with this. I think the Pink Floyd FD fits your description of capitalizing on their skills without being in lurve, but I really really want to see that go much farther next year.

    You have to admit though, it's not just V&M. Successful ice dance programs usually involve love or lust... Bolero, Air, Carmina Burana, various Carmens, Mahler et al, Romeo & Juliet, The Feelng Begins, Blues for Klook, Tosca, Spartacus, Masquerade Waltz.

    So now I'm trying to think of winning FDs that don't deal with love/passion/sensuality (tango/ballroom counts as romantic unless it's decidedly modern or danced by the Shibutanis ;)) ... 7 Deadly Sins, K&O's African Drums, Man in the Iron Mask, Libertas, Time for Peace, Adagio (B&K and DenSta), Memorial, Missing... it's not quite as common but it's certainly doable and I hope V&M do something like that next year. I really want them to do something like Missing.
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    Hope no. D-W or Shibs must thinking about this. Why not to try to respect that V-M put modernn moves and music feelings with such great connetction with each other& At least V-M look more mature this season then all other teams. Sorry, but its amazing how V-M all the time didnt made what they need :lol:
    Like one person said- any dance its relation between mad and a woman in different stage of there lives.
  5. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,887
    I get what you're saying as well. V&M's chemistry is a strength, so why not use it? That's what Zhulin said - they are one of the only couples who can really show the relationship between a man and a woman. Using that for the Olympics is good strategy no doubt. I would just like to see them go in a different direction because a) I think they can do it, and b) I would love to show all the naysayers who think they only do first love that they can do the exact opposite style just as well as anyone. Since next year is probably their last FD ever :)fragile:) that's the time to do it cause most skaters just skate to GFBs in pros nowadays unfortunately. :(

    Lol, I'm pretty sure Marina has asked Meryl to do that. It's not as simple as sending her a memo. :p

    I've never thought of sap5 as a D&W uber... if he/she is, then they aren't one of the vocal or bashy ones, so why not leave it alone? sap5 has been nothing but respectful and civil in this thread even if we don't always agree with each other, and the discussions are very interesting. I see no need to disregard his/her opinions just because they might like D&W, as long as it's not done in a way that attacks V&M, which it isn't. Bashing D&W does not help in any way.
  6. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    ahem, sorry to interrupt the discussion ^^; just wanted to post this
    look at these close-ups of the moment the Toreador music begins:
    http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/627/vlcsnap2012111923h23m57r.png
    http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1249/vlcsnap2012111923h24m36.png
    it really looks like Scott is screaming of anger and madness, but Tessa is certainly not intimidated!
    this moment actually frightens me for the sudden violence of their movements after the soft, dreaming moments of "La fleur". it is really a burst of violent emotion right on the explosion of the music.
    the strongest they make it, the better. the same should be when an orchestra plays it, certain parts of Carmen should be executed so loud to the point
    of almost scaring people out.
    their faces in those screen-shots, as well as the following moves, reminds me of expressionist paintings, where the shape of the human face is altered because of some terrible inner distress.
    imo there should be a non-stop closing-up on their faces during this dance!
  7. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    Bashing V-M didnt help D-W no? :D Honestly i dont like when people try to made impression they are V-M fans, but form there messages its understanding they try to claim them down every time.
    Its interesting to read someone opinion, who dont care about any team and try to express there thoughts about ice dance in general. But not when any D-W are super and V-M never did nothing good from D-W ubers.

    O, now even "Carmen" is a first love. I dont think i have any argue anymore :D But guys, you need to choose - is this first love or pornography :lol:

    Yes, it was much better, when W-P showed love on ice last season and people in Canada put then at first place in there minds. And ofcouse, V-M need to show two robots at OG for give D-W gold in Sochi, because they have one.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  8. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    :D
  9. IoanaC

    IoanaC Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    582
    I don't think they'll go abstract next season precisely because it will be their last, as well as being the Olympic year. To be honest, I'm not sure I want them to do that kind of FD either. Of course they could do it - and the naysayers would continue to criticize anyway. After all, Klimova & Ponomarenko never did an abstract program and that certainly hasn't hurt their legacy. Whatever they skate to, I trust them to make it unique. Finding out how they've made the switch from the first Carmen to the second makes me trust their judgement even more.
  10. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    632
    So --- I am absolutely the most ecstatic figure skating fan ever as my husband just surprised me with tickets to Canadians. I would love to go every year but this year I was dying (no pun intended) to go and see them do Carmen live. I do have to get through my daughter's wedding first but boy do I ever have a great reward to look forward to.
  11. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    Now i have the same thoughts. Before i had some ideas for them, but after i saw Carmen... Dont care about music, they will made something super and they now grow up ;)
  12. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,612
    I am sure you will enjoy this FD. Especially i think at Nationals it will lokk better, then at the begining of the season.
  13. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    yea.. in my book love and lust are not the same things :) and Carmen and Josè don't even love each other. otherwise, they wouldn't try to destroy each other as soon as troubles show up :) in this FD Tessa and Scott tried something really different, that goes well beyond a banal "love" story. as much as they're connected (especially through their stares) their souls are basically separated. they are both alone, not together, because each one has an agenda about their relationship. "La fleur" is just a temporary moment of harmony but it's evident that it can't last long. i think that the whole choreography speaks of unevenness and hardship, much more than "love". forgive my horrible english! :/(
  14. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    i envy you a lot! ((:)
  15. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,115
    I´ll be the third to agree. Seeing how they handled Carmen I have complete faith they can take any warhorse and give us something fresh and exciting. And if you have a quality that no one else possesses among your competitors, something that sets you apart from everyone else, something that coaches, officials and your peers comment on as an admirable quality you would be a fool to not use it. It would be like asking D&W (for instance) to not skate so fast (and some people want them to slow down and finish their moves more but they don't, because they know speed is their ace in the hole). More times than not when men and women dance together there is some level of sexuality to it. Even in Pink Floyd there were moves in that program that I found sexual (if you ever watched the movie The Wall when the animated flowers come on and think of that lift where she leaps into his arms it's exactly what I thought of at the time, one of the reasons it blew me away).
  16. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,887
    I love that description! That's the mark of a good program... you can screencap any split second and you can see the story being told. Scott Hamilton used to say something similar about Oksana Baiul... you could freezeframe any part and she was in perfect position. :swoon:

    You know I didn't mean Carmen was first love or pornography. :p

    Probably so. K&P's Lawrence of Arabia was abstract (he was supposed to be the sand and she was wind), but your point is right, they relied on their romantic connection just as much as V&M have ever done if not more. And I agree, I trust their judgment and I'm sure whatever they do will be great. I never expected something as voidy as Carmen, and I couldn't be more pleased with their programs this year.

    Awesome! I wonder if they'll get a standing ovation at Nats... :p :lol:

    Interesting tidbit about Pink Floyd... I've never seen the Wall. I'll look for a vid. :) It's embarrassing how many movies I have watched just because V&M skated to the music. :shuffle:

    I do understand what you're saying, agree that they have good judgment, know they will probably do something romantic and that I'll like it. Just to make it clear, I'm not in any way suggesting that doing a romantic FD would show weakness or lack of creativity or that I would be disappointed. I just would like to see something else as well (unfortunately they'd have to skate to 100 to do everything I would like to see them do, hah). I will say though, that I don't think pursuing a different avenue would be foolish. The point is not to handicap V&M.

    Sometimes you can take your perceived weakness, face it, and make it your strength. This is one of the most difficult things to do in figure skating and it's very rare IMO. They did it with Carmen. When Funny Face came out there were debates about whether it was first love, too vanilla, etc. Some people posted they would like to see them do something voidier (me), others posted they liked V&M as is and that since they're good at light romance they should continue to do it. They chose to do voidy this year and I'm glad. They have convinced people I thought would never post anything positive about them. And maybe D&W should have slowed down and worked on positions; maybe had they done that for a year or two, they would have improved their posture such that they could pick up their speed at the same level but with better line.
  17. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,544
    Puglover can I entrust my banner for you to take to Canadians and then you can return it to me for worlds. Its an FSU collective effort. Pani provided the photo, Jess the caption and I had it done.

    Please, please!
  18. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,544
    Actually interesting that Sap mentioned disneyesque. I have always thought that Meryl was like a disney character kind of larger than life pretty perfect and self contained but without real human emotion and also with very little connection to Charlie. So it was so funny that a young girl asked if she was Snow white when looking at the Giselle program. And when I gave it a second look she really did have that disney look......

    I somehow cannot see the disney in T&S at all. Certainly not starting with Valse Trieste. Hallelujah was a masterpiece in sensuality and even I want to hold your hand had its stroking moments. Carmen was a natural mature fruition in their career.

    That being said I dont think they will do Disney next year and young love is not disney at all. Scott doesnt have the locks for disney IMO.
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,544
    You are so right. The anger in the second picture is real .

    Amazing pictures... amazing program... amazing Tessa and Scott!
  20. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,544
    ITA
  21. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,827
    I think you're the only mom who would rather see Tessa and Scott than see her own daughter get married. :lol:
  22. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    i think that Funny face was about a particular kind of love, actually :) it is related to the story and the characters of the movie, and i would describe it more as a particular malhincolic mood rather than a feeling of love in the full sense. the goal was perhaps to stage a relationship, recreating the Broadway feel, as opposed to bring the audience in two enamoured souls as in Mahler. it's the difference between seeing a couple with our eyes, and see it painted or staged. our reactions are different in the two cases. there are also some touches of irony in the FF program, remember the lines, "for you're no Mona Lisa", or "you cant blame me for feeling amorous". there was also a bitter-sweet tone in the last song. what i mean is that love has so many angles and aspects and can be portrayed in 100 different ways. T&S have showed several of these ways, the grief of separation with Umbrellas, the peaceful passion and happiness in Adagietto, lust and adultery in Latina, comedy and malincholy in Funny face and..well Carmen doesnt fall in the cathegory of Love as i said above :)
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  23. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,544
    Beautifully put ...so agree with you.
  24. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,478
    Sounds like you have a terrific hubinator puglover :). Of all the competitions, Canadians is the one I think where you can just sit back and relax and enjoy their programs.......I'm envious (I'm going to Worlds, but I will probably be a basket case :lol:)
  25. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    I am so glad that V/M's Carmen not only incorporated modern movements, but also used a non-literal interpretation of the story. I agree with Martyross, this Carmen is not about what literally happened to Carmen and Don Jose but their emotions and torment with one another. Carmen didn't die in this FD because in the end she was the one that crushed Don Jose emotionally which caused him to murder her in desperation. Tessa and Scott weren't the physical Carmen and Don Jose but their emotions danced out on ice, and this adds so many layers to the interpretation. Marina did a great job by going with this concept.

    Just to echo the sentiment that we will trust whatever music V/M choose to skate. I am going to Sigur Ros concert this Wednesday (front row center!!) and I was thinking how back in early summer I wanted them to skate to this band so much, then Carmen happened. And I have to say, their Carmen FD was infinitely better than whatever crap I had in imagined in my head :lol:
  26. Judy

    Judy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2002
    Messages:
    678
    I isn't see Funny Face as anything but a character piece and not a love story.
  27. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    7,915
    Nice try, pani. Everyone on this board knows that I like both teams, and that I've praised Carmen several times this season already. If you disagree with some things I say, that's fine. Lying about my posts is not. Finally, stop mentioning D/W in this thread. You are the only one who does that, and it annoys everyone, especially you!
  28. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    7,915
    I'd like to see it just because I don't believe the man/woman relationship is their only strength. They are incredibly strong in that area, but I'd bet they are just as strong in other types of connection as well.

    ETA: LOL! Caption this!
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  29. sequins

    sequins New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    :rofl:Oh that's just dying for a caption! Not just Tessa and Scott's expressions but the 3 ladies behind them in the crowd as well. :lol:
  30. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,887
    I'd caption myself saying I'm sorry I ever suggested they leave Zoueva. :rofl:
  31. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    632
    Yikes - that didn't come out exactly the way I meant it. I am very excited to see my daughter get married. And I am very excited to see Tessa and Scott live.
  32. iggie

    iggie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,447
    who is in front of them?
  33. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,147
    brunette behind scott: "oooh look at that tush" ;)
  34. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    Nikolai Morozov
  35. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,687
    I agree.

    The possibility for talented young teams to rise successfully post-COP has resulted in the top dancers being much younger than in the past. I'm surprised that Marina first suggested Carmen for V/M 4-5 years ago, because back then they would have been much too young to do it justice. Now they have the maturity to explore this theme and have done it wonderfully, IMO.

    I think that another factor at play in some people's reactions to the Carmen program may stem from some differences between (traditional) North American ice dance aesthetics vs. those of continental Europe. Stretching well back pre-COP, N.A. ice dance has had a strong ballroom influence, leading to programs that were typically squeaky-clean, whereas European ice dancers often brought an edginess and visceral emotion to some of their best programs. Needless to say, people can frame any type of aesthetic with positive or negative adjectives, depending on preferences and experience. I love contemporary ballet and modern dance and attend performances regularly; V/M's Carmen reflects what I am accustomed to seeing in those venues and I am thrilled to see them put it on the ice. Visceral expression that speaks to some fundamental elements of human experience, and to do that on top of the extreme technical demands of the piece provides the wow factor for me. Plus the musicality - every movement has purpose, each beat of the music is used. This is a program that will need the season to grow - like Tracy Wilson says there is no way a program this challenging can be skated error-free at the beginning of the season. I hope she can straighten out Brenda Irving and Rod Black when they prattle on, since they have no clue about what is actually difficult in ice dance.

    Of course first love is also a fundamental element of human experience, and they've done a couple of very good programs on that theme. But for someone to say all their programs are about "first love" is absurd; trying to prove that canard wrong is a waste of time IMO. Those who succeed always have their detractors. The comments of people who actually know ice dance like Krylova, Navka, Staviski, Tracy Wilson, not to mention the praise of competitors like Katsalapov is far more important. V/M are skaters' skaters. They have also grown up now and their answers to the Russian fans' questions suggest they have a strong sense of vision for their programs. I hope they stick with that vision, even if they are bashed for it in some quarters.
  36. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,861
    I'm not seeing what's so controversial either. And some of the twitter comments this program has been getting because it's just so "risque" will have you rolling your eyes, majorly.
    Aww, that's so exciting! The wedding that is, but also that you will get to see Tessa and Scott/Carmen in person. If I win the lottery before January, I'm so there.
    Yes! Some of the criticism I've seen is that the program doesn't "look" like Carmen and you've just hit the nail on the head on why it's not supposed/doesn't look like the literal story--they're skating the emotions behind the story. I think it's brilliant really.

    Ok so I finally saw the fanvid that the wonderful Russian fans created with Tessa and Scott and I am so appreciative that they did this. There were so many interesting things in the video that I wouldn't rehash since you guys have pretty much covered it, but I was surprised when Tessa said the main fabric used for her dress (not the skirt part) was gray and they then overlaid it with black lace. Except for the gray accents in the skirt I thought the dress was all black. Anyhow I found that particularly interesting.
    ETA: This picture from the album that sap5 posted (thank you), really shows the detail of Tessa's dress that she described in the fanvid--it's beautiful. Oh one more thing (I think) Scott's shirt too is beautiful and sleek and so modern looking, I love it so much. In the fanvid Tessa mentions that it's made from bamboo, not sure, but that's what it sounded like to me IDK.

    Some really great discussion going on in this thread re Carmen!

    ETA: Also not sure if someone already mentioned this, but Tessa and Scott are ranked #1 again on the ISU world standing.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  37. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,471
    What is really intriguing is why they brought someone from outside to work on the choreography. Because they should have done that a LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNG time ago. I hope it sticks for next year. It sucks when they play it safe.
  38. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,115
    I've said it before and I can't say it enough that I hope they continue to work with Swan into next season as well. She brings out something special. Probably helps that she doesn't seem to work with anyone else and the connection with Tessa goes back to her childhood so she is working 100% for them.

    I don't agree that they played it safe though. Technically they didn't and they always work hard to tell a story. What I do think though is that Marina (and Igor while he was around) couldn't fully serve any team for fear of showing favouritism. That it couldn't be anything other than a conflict of interest, trying to give the same to your teams (particularly the top two) meant you weren't going out of your way to make one the best. When one wants to improve something to put them ahead then the other is aware of the change and wants the same. But I do like that Tessa and Scott seemed very clear in that fan interview that they would be continuing to work with Swan throughout the season. I hope they insist on it next season as well.
  39. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    7,915
    Actually, they did do that a long time ago. They worked with her for Pink Floyd, and I know they worked with outside choreographers for their Flamenco OD, and their Latin FD. My feeling is Tessa's injuries hampered them far more than we thought. Now that (hopefully) she's feeling good again, we are able to really see what they can do.

    Ever since I learned that if you win the Olympics and Worlds in the same year, only one of those events is counted towards the rankings, I've thought the rankings are nothing but silliness.
  40. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,887
    Can anyone share some articles or insights about Swan's working relationship with V&M? I agree that Swan being kind of V&M's "personal choreographer" is a huge plus for them. Modern dance/ballet choreographers working with ice dancers who have great technique is such a winning combo that I don't know why everyone doesn't do it (Shanti Rushpaul :swoon:). And I really love that the relationship is organic, stemming from Tessa having a real dance background, and not a meeting done for show (like when Debi Thomas had Baryshnikov come in for her Carmen, lol).

    Basically I am curious to know where she is located and if she is the type of choreographer who comes in as a one-off and does the program for them and maybe visits once or twice a year to tweak, or if she's part of their daily or weekly regimen. If the latter, she probably couldn't work with any other teams outside of Detroit.

    To be honest, I bet she could do amazing things with Pechalat/Bourzat, though that would never happen unless and until either they or V&M turn pro.