virtue and moir #18 - ruffles and truffles

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iggie, May 20, 2012.

  1. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    793
  2. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    I know what you mean Misha. What do you think (or from hearsay) is causing the tension in Canton now though, is it because of the whole dismiss of the coaching tandem or is it the training environment itself? I don't really have a clue either way, but if the tension was really bad or really negative I'm not sure why T/S would stay and since they're still there I have to believe things are at least still tolerable. But I'm gonna kinda of piggyback on what m_chenning was saying. In the last season I did notice a change in T/S. They started off the season really happy and excited and near they end they just didn't seem to have the same joy they had.

    Jess I love that picture/poster (or whatever it is).
     
  3. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,650
    Hm... Yes, maybe first big results Tarasova had with pairs skaters (Rodnina-Zaitsev). But her first stars were Moiseeva-Minenkov, who was ice dancers. And then she made ice dance fashion with Bestemynova-Bukin. And Klimova-Ponomarenko won with her help OG. Then she made "Memorial" for G-P.
    So even if i think she wasnt right this time, she is ice dance expert for sure.
     
  4. maggylyn

    maggylyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,666
    I think I do too! :)

    Tessa and Scott have never expressed anything but satisfaction with their coaching and choreography. I don't think they're lying.

    And add me to the list of those who hope Virtue/Moir never go to Dean for choreography. Perhaps as professionals, but not right now.
     
  5. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    She's not, because she coached ice dance before CoP. So she still has no idea what she's talking about. Bestemyova-Bukin were a choreographic joke. If this is the style some people want Virtue Moir to skate I wonder sometimes why they're fans of Virtue Moir at all.
     
  6. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,650
    Didnt TAT worked with Kulikova-Novikov? They skated under CoP. And she helped Navka-Kostomarov before OG 2006.
    And i dont think fans want V-M skate something in BB style- just in T-D style or in there PF FD style :)
    But i like this BB FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=715u2o0FIAY

    And like i understand, Yu-Na wish to compete again, so maybe she will not have show in August.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  7. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Okay, some thoughts.....

    a) The judges at Canadians got it exactly right re: V/M, imo. Their short dance wasn't well skated. While their FD was and the judges gave them huge marks, they were held in place by the technical panel (were the levels the same they got at the GPF, their score would've been above 115). And I'm gonna argue that the tech panel being so strict is what forced V/M to ensure they got those levels, which they did at 4CC, Worlds and WTT (compare that to D/W, who were treated more generously by their Nationals panel, but were behind V/M levelwise at the subsequent international events). It just looks incorrect due to the hideously massive overscoring Gilles/Poirier got (remember, according to the judges, G/P had a better free dance than C/P did the year prior, and that... no).

    b) Did I love "Funny Face" like I loved other programs from V/M. No. Does that mean it's a failure? No. But when you have "Malaguena" and "Valse Triste" and "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" and "Pink Floyd" and "Mahler" and "Latin Trio," well the range and brilliance of the programs herein is just inspiring to me.

    c) Tactically, I can see why "Funny Face" was problematic. It's a work in a narrow cultural idion (American Musical standard, 1950s). It's tonally the broadest work they've done, with the most range of personal expression. They're impersonating figures that some will have strong opinions on; others won't know anything about them and won't get the homage (it's not "Singin' in the Rain"). All these things represent a challenge for these two. I think they did it phenomenally well. I think the use of elements and transitions throughout is marvelous. I think the way they move to the music remains peerless. Their understanding of subtleties and nuance s'wonderful. Indeed, you can make an argument that the dance is slightly weaker because they choose the subtle over the grand (the change in the ending pose takes it from a grand broadway finale to a more cheeky wink, for example). I think it speaks to their drive that they did this dance this year and not next year (where they would have more hometown support to mitigate the narrowness). But yeah, tactically, taking on those challenges.... well, it provided a bigger obstacle when you're trying to reassert yourself at the top (it would be like D/W doing that tango against a fully training Latin Trio. It does them no favours)

    d) Was it really a Pyrrhic victory at Worlds? I don't think so. It wasn't a universally enjoyed one. But neither was Mahler in Turin. More than that, asserting that Tarasova's comments were down to the failure of the program is specious. They had a couple bobbles and weren't their full selves (I don't think we would've heard as many comments in V/M skated as they did at the GPF). Plus, it's hard to pretend Tarasova is speaking without politicks underneath. I think the only way the victory wouldn't be Pyrrhic for fans would be to have a universally applauded one. Won't happen, best get over it. Meanwhile, we also get very kind words from Krylova about this team after worlds.

    e) What did you enjoy about "Sweet Dreams" m_chenning? Because to me, it's flaws (trite and pretentious, string of tricks, unequal choreography designed to hide her technical weaknesses) were all I saw. I think if V/M were to go in that direction, they would suffer as their skills (remarkable unision and match, seamless choreograhy) would be diminished in favour of show. I loved "Eleanor Rigby" though.

    f) That's not to say I don't want them to seek outside help. Right now, V/M are like exceedingly gifted actors. With any director, they'll do exceptional work. So why not see what others do? Frank Capra and James Stewart were a remarkable team, but so were Stewart and Mann, Stewart and Ford, Stewart and Hitchcock. I wouldn't have given that up for the world. So, yeah, Haugenauer thinks little of them, but I'd like to see what Zhulin or Camerlengo or Steuer or Miyamoto would come up with. But given what Zoueva and Shpilband have done for them, I think they're in fine hands.

    g) Subway, if we're to speak to facts, lets point out that Judy Bloomberg dind't comment at this year's 4CC. She was on the tech panel. The one that gave D/W four level three elements and inspired massive hate from D/W fans. Which was amusing. Belbin commented at 4CC. Which was also amusing. But I certainly see where you're coming from re: discussion of V/M by their ubers

    h) m_chenning: "They had so much non-typical mistakes during the season. They cut out again their dances (rework them) . They had not that wave and confidence, that shine. IMHO "

    They ALWAYS rework their dances. The two years they didn't were the years of Tessa's surgeries. Farrucas was altered (the footwork changed, as did the closing pose). Watching Cherbourg throughout the season, and you see the work they did to improve the transitions and make everything more fluid. Now, if you're arguing they weren't as confident, I'm gonna argue it comes down to the GPF. They really wanted it, didn't get it, and made massive changes. Now, for post-Nationals talk that they didn't need to change the dance, there was just as much before about the SD didn't quite work as effectively as the FD did the year before. The changes didn't help, but changes were still needed. And the improvements made to Funny Face largely helped - they certainly promoted higher PCS.

    After the season, with all that's occured, it's easy to wonder about their training situation. We've heard about tension. We can infer it from comments made by the skaters. And make no mistake - this was a LONG season for V/M. They competed more in the 2011/2012 season more than they had in the previous two seasons combined (Finlandia, three GP events including Final, Nationals, 4CC, Worlds, WTT). That clearly wore them down (is it a surprise they peaked far earlier than they normally did?). We can speculate that the Canton tensions hurt as well. Next season is gonna be long as they have WTT again. I do hope they pace themselves well.

    i) For all the talk of lost joy, their moments in the "Up" number on CSOI were lovely, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" is vivacious and "Hallelujah" is their best ex ever. If this what they do when they're less than perfectly content with their training life, I might not be able to handle what they do when everything is perfect.
     
  8. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    She's not, because she coached ice dance before CoP. So she still has no idea what she's talking about. Bestemyova-Bukin were a choreographic joke. She could never choreograph a FF. B&B's winning fd with the take-a-dump moves (now evolved to the Besti squat) - what a joy. If this is the style some people want Virtue Moir to skate I wonder sometimes why they're fans of Virtue Moir at all. For me the problem seems to be how many fans love the team but want ice dancing to go back to the 1980s and 1990s. I think Tessa and Scott are not fans of that era. Scott especially talks all the time about being a fan of CoP. He has issues with some of the rule changes, particularly lifts, but in general, he doesn't seem to want to cut his sparse chest hair into a diamond shape or do a lot of hair and face figure skating with Tessa. He wants to dance.

    Who at ice-dance.com said they were boring. Of course we can "taste" ice-dance. Do they think Marina is a lesser choreographer than Dean? Can I see the link. Virtue and Moir got jobbed in the PCs in a few places this past season - so you agree? This was a fair score? They weren't treated unjustly and underscored? It wasn't a trend last season to hype D/W and pretend every one of their skates were flawless? Some of the chattering classes among figure skating writers bitched out the results? Stop the presses - that never happens in figure skating because figure skating writers always know what they're talking about. The field is full of keenly informed CoP experts and unbiased observations.

    Anybody who thinks Christopher Dean, the recycle king, is an "innovative" choreographer when he hasn't done a new move since the early 1980s and is no CoP authority (look how C&P struggled with Eleanor Rigby so much of the post-Vancouver season) or is better than Marina is a person speaking from taste, yes, not what is best for Virtue and Moir. Virtue and Moir as figure skaters are both outspoken and opinionated. Both helping with their own choreography since they've been seniors. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to submit themselves to Dean like pieces of clay only to come out the other end with a piece of crap like Willa Wonka that would mortify them both. I suspect they are not fans of that choreography either, based on what they choose to skate for themselves in competition and exhibitions.

    Tension has more than one meaning. Tessa said it's exciting and they thrive on it. Let's ignore that. Ignore she used the words exciting and thrive, and all three top teams backed up what Tessa said by choosing to stay with Marina. Let's pretend it must be toxic so we can continue to hope maybe soon they'll turn into the worst of 1980s-1990s ice "dance." We can still hope they'll take the pesky ballroom out of their skating - ballroom meaning any and all identifiable dancing - and start acting out theatre on the ice, start doing modern dance cliche and become divas at last. Let's ignore that Scott and Tessa love to dance, are proud of being dance-centered ice dancers and believe true dancing is what sets them apart. I see that everybody cherry picks what Tessa and Scott say in order to support their point of view? The tension is bad. Tension of any kind is bad!! Forget Tessa said it's good, exciting. She used the word tension. Forget Scott has repeatedly expressed his faith in and respect for Marina. It's Tessa keeping that team with Marina while Scott's miserable and wishes to go to the DSC. But when it's important to take every word out of Tessa and Scott's mouth as gospel, let's insist on that.

    What's clear is people want Tessa and Scott to work with Dean and/or DSC. Or Tarasova. All theatrical stuff. Its not innovative, especially Dean. That's the politics, here, not in Canton. It's ice dance fans bored by dance rhythms and dancing on the ice, the thing that helped keep it a sport. Sweep aside that Tessa and Scott are the current World and Olympic champions, have won 2 of the past three Worlds, are the first North American team to repeat as World champions. Forget how last season Scott and Tessa said they changed their training, more quality, less quantity, that training adjustments and a desire to prove themselves instead of relaxing into their skating can impact clean performances.

    Many people have compared V&M to G&G. It makes me want to go to the archives and look at G&G's 1990 season where Katia was wiping out and making mistakes all the time. If only Marina had been identified as the culprit back then North America would have been spared her coaching the Olympic gold and silver medalists and the World gold and silver medalists of the past three years. Back then, if you archive the weekly magazines, the rumors of course were Sergei and Katia were fighting which was why she was wiping out. I am just amazed that fans of Virtue and Moir can look at a team that has managed to win Olympics, and win Worlds two out of three seasons, and still argue the team needs to dump their choreographer and quote people like Tarasova, who thrived in a different era completely. Maybe these people are mad Marina has adapted and they didn't. I can see so many jealous outside skaters and coaches drooling in hope of real tension at Canton, hoping the teams disperse and give their own skaters a chance in the fallout, or better yet, maybe if Canton falls apart one of these coaches will get to coach one of Marina's top teams. She's hogging the glory.

    All of this says a lot about ice dance politics, but not the politics at Arctic Edge. Anything to stop these wonderful dancers from being so boring and dancing all the time.

    Proustable, thanks for the correction. Who was the woman co-commenting with Belbin at the 4CCs? More specifically, who commented with her on D/W's fd?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  9. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    ^^^

    Agree with a lot of all you said but not everything.

    I think the time has come to support them and not fight amongst our selves.
     
  10. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    I think it was Andrea Joyce.

    As for the ice-dance.com, it was a twitter comment after the 4CC short dance. I don't even know if it's still up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  11. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    I guess that my post was at the same time as Subway .
    Because I agree with Proustable and NOT subway.
     
  12. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,836
    People cite Dean's willy wonka choreo as a reason fr him being a bad choreographer but lets remember that he was working with a young team that had just come together.
    Remember stuff that he choreographed for himself and torvill? He did some great work for Anissina and Peizerat (btw I just realized that Marina's last name is a palindrome.)
     
  13. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,650
    I think it was Tanith Belbin, who made comments on TV.
    And yes, this was twitt on ice-dance.com V-M were worst of three teams. But who cares about someone opinion, if ice dance isnt onle emotions, but technik and levels? And W-P wll never skate, like V-M even if all start twitting V-M are so boring :D
    You know today i re-watched some Navka programs and really wonder - what people find in this team? I mean there technic was so low level. V-M change ice dance a lot. I think now 10th team in the World skate better, then N-K. Yes, she is a Diva, but not skating diva and her patner was....
     
  14. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    Both sides support them. But strong disagreements will happen when selective reality comes into play. On fsu so many people proceed as if it's a fact Canton is tense and oppressive, Tessa and Scott need the outside choreographer of fsuniverse's preference, and just forget this is exactly the type of choreography Tessa and Scott have rejected their entire career. They don't like it. It's one thing to look at the season, the pcs, and everything else, another to use the season as fuel for the same old argument, Marina sucks and it's urgent Scott and Tessa need to skate the choreography I prefer. Oddly enough, it's the sort of choreography that is least subject to objective evaluation. Maybe that's why it's so popular in some quarters. It's also a little odd to take a season where they won Worlds beating D/W handily as a disappointment. Easy for me to say. :) I love Marina's choreography, from G&G through V/M, D/W, the Shibs and the work she does for pairs. It's the best use of music in the business and I believe her results speak for themselves. Part of the reason I've not cared for some ice dancers of the past is I find the fd choreography ridiculous, bearing no relationship to dance at all. There are a team or two of the past - Anasina & Pezarat come to mind - who were such natural dancers and so musical that their talents could be appreciated as ice dance, shining through the kitsch, the diva and the tacky styling both choreographic and cosmetic.
     
  15. maggylyn

    maggylyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,666
    I find myself agreeing with both of them. :)
     
  16. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    Totally agree.

    Also agree about W&P. They can be over the top. I was one of those who preferred C&P with their controlled technical skating. I saw C&P sitting onice at a show last year and they were spectacular live.

    G&P - we will have to see in three years or so.

    That being said I enjoyed Je suis and it made a great show program at CSOI. And WP have come a long way over the years, I have to say though that they got their levels and thats a great feat.
     
  17. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    sorry, but you're doing exactly what you're "accusing" people to do. and you're exaggerating whatthe trend of the past was. obviously it wasn't everything kitsch and tacky.
     
  18. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    793
    Proustable I really applaud this post. Really interesting and elegant points of argument, without aggressive undertones.
     
  19. taf2002

    taf2002 Texas slumlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    14,143
    I think you need to look up the definition of Pyrrhic victory. I read this paragraph several times but I can't make sense of it. I think you mean something else but I'm not sure what.
     
  20. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    793
    "Someone who wins a "Pyrrhic victory" has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll and/or the detrimental consequences negates any sense of achievement or profit. There is, therefore, no reason to celebrate."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory
     
  21. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    But it's true - that description characterizes not just a lot of the choreography of the time many here are most fond of, but also the impression of much of a general public of the time. There are always exceptions, but that was the trend. When first in seniors Scott spoke proudly of, basically, making ice dancing a real sport. What did we think he meant? This is the guy many think is best advised to turn his back on everything he's most proud of in his sport, like the dancing part.

    Here, much of the time the discussion on Virtue and Moir is a group of posters arguing from any angle they can make up that Marina is holding Tessa and Scott back and Carmalengo and/or Dean is what they need. If this means they 180 on Igor without turning a hair, fine. The discussion involves, every season, many posters ignoring results, taking their own speculation as reality, and projecting what they want onto anything Tessa and Scott say, tossing out anything that doesn't back up what they want to happen. Which is, Virtue Moir need non-Marina choreography. No, they don't need it. Some posters want it, a difference many find unimportant. There's no evidence Virtue and Moir agree. In fact, they have - explicitly - the opposite point of view. But we don't have to let that stop us. Let's conveniently pretend that Virtue Moir are too brainwashed to have FSU's wisdom and are blind to the politics of their own rink which we understand so much better.

    I just find that so insulting to them, all the skaters there, and also arrogant, because it's just twisting things to support what you want. It's also hilarious because nobody ever knows what's going on at Arctic Edge until Arctic Edge decides it's time for us to know. I don't count any poster who comes along afterwards and pretends to have been inside the loop the entire time, or piggybacks their pet theories onto the latest news. My head is still spinning from the 180 on Igor. He went from the rink Machiavelli putting the fix in for D/W to Marina sabotaged him because she's the one who has the fix in for D/W.

    There's a co-theory that Scott is manipulated by Tessa, Marina and Meryl but left to his own devices he'd be skating diva-style. That's funny. Let's conveniently pretend that Virtue Moir or maybe only poor Moir are too brainwashed to have FSU's wisdom and are blind to the politics of their own rink which we understand so much better. Look at all the people who agree - rival skaters, rival training centers, former big name coaches or choreographers who haven't had Marina's success in this decade, the always-journalistic figure skating media overseas - all disinterested parties with no agenda but Tessa and Scott's best interest. There's no resentment, stirring the pot, cattiness or jealousy. Maybe it's time for that banner.

    It's not - unlike Proustable's remarks - a terribly reality based discussion of these guys. It's a self-serving, speculation is fact discussion. If this is aggressive, I'm sorry, but that, too, is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's a nice change from passive-aggression.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  22. Zazy

    Zazy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    139
    I find it a little strange that all of this hand-wringing was prompted by an article written by someone who has zero credibility in the figure skating world. Tarasova I can understand, but who really cares what this woman thinks? D/W's FD had the better audience response, anyone can see that, but I don't think she knows much if anything about ice dance. Plus she clearly has an axe to grind.

    That said, I don't understand how anyone could say last season was a great success just because V/M won gold at Worlds. They clearly struggled at times and their victory was criticised by important people in the skating world. I agree Tarasova doesn't know much about COP dance, but she's still a big name in the sport and I would think has some considerable pull. And it's not like she hasn't been complimentary to V/M in the past, she absolutely loved Pink Floyd, for example. Then you've got Marina saying she's disappointed D/W didn't win, and, well, I don't even know what to say to that...

    Saying their win is a pyrrhic victory is a bit much, though. D/W went through the same kind of season in 2010/2011, except probably worse: struggling with programs that were pretty universally panned, falls, people speculating they were unhappy, figure skating icons criticising their victory,etc. They were lucky they had this kind of season when V/M were not competing for most of it and seriously undertrained at worlds. Wouldn't the fact that a number of people thought they should have lost to a V/M team that frankly had no business being there be even worse than V/M's victory this year? And yet they showed up with very well-received programs the next season and did great this year. So I think program choice is more important than ever, but if they choose wisely, there shouldn't be a problem. Two FF-type years in a row would be a problem, but I trust V/M and their team will be smart enough to learn from their mistakes and steer clear of that. And really, a tough season like this could lead them to become better ice dancers in the future; I'm not sure we would have had the wonderful Olympic performances if it weren't for all the struggles of the 2009 season, for example. I can't wait to see what they have in store for us next year...
     
  23. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    ^^^ I love all these observations zazy.

    Tarasova is a big name, and respected, but didn't she recently talk about how in the not-distant past she was grateful for commentating work because nobody had use for her at that time? I don't believe figure skating should throw out their talent, especially someone like Tarasova who is a great personality in the sport, but it's important to stay up to date on what the sport is like today. I don't believe her opinion on D/W versus V/M will have weight. I think also the new Olympic season is coming up and everybody is over praising Zoueva and Canton, that's so 2010-2011. Sochi is on the horizon and politiking is out in force. We can't let that training center do it again. Let's sow some dissension or at least make people look for problems.

    It's almost a compliment that some are so desperate to elevate D/W over V/M. Which team really scares them more?

    I might be the only one who finds this interesting, or the only one who has this angle on it, but I believe it's D/W who are in the more challenging situation. I think only Marina has the talent to build them the sorts of programs that keep them competitive with Tessa and Scott. If this is too uber, so be it, because I think Tessa and Scott are that much better and have reached par or better with D/W's speed and power. They really struggled with the 2010-2011 tango program and ultimately reconfigured it so it looked a bit more like what we see from them - a bit more of their comfort zone. Sure we can all come up with a long list of traditional skating pieces for D/W, but what are they going to do with them that can top Die Fleudermaus, the masterpiece that got silver at Worlds? Except for 2010-2011, D/W have always remained protected inside their choreography. It maxmizes their strengths and finesses problems. 2010-2011 was the year they won Worlds, but I agree with Zazy that it wasn't a reassuring season for D/W. It didn't confirm that they could stretch, master a different style and change it up. They got through it, but they ended up taking out a lot of things they were unable to master. Their new choreography can't simply pick something off the menu like Swan Lake or a Pink Floyd. They have to be able to do it convincingly, and compete with VM. I think if they intend to do any sort of departure, they don't have many choices. If they stick with what's worked for them it may seem anti-climactic after POTO and Die Fleudermaus. VM have shown they can do anything, and they don't have that problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  24. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,650
    But nobody talk D-W still use one style during all years. But people talk this about Tessa and Scott.
    I agree next season will show is V-M smart enough or they just didnt understand they need to grow up for win OG.
    And honestly i think its good they had not such great FD, like Mahler (for example). Nobody could show there best every season (maybe only D-W :D).
    But if next season they will not have good programs- this will be not because of Marina, Meryl or SC. This will be because of there own choice. So will see - they are both adults and i am sure they knew, what Marina said at WCh. So they choose to be in this situation on there own reason. At least they have all golds in the World and could do what they want - to stay where they want and skate FF-2, if they want. We could only watch competitions and enjoy or not skaters programs.
     
  25. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    I agree with this. I can't say I think T/S's season was a complete success even though they won the gold at worlds. And even that was a bit marred with all the noise that they didn't deserve to win over D/W, something they paid for at wtt. If they have "another" FF next season then I just don't know because next season I think they are gonna be a lot more scrutinized that they were the last one.
    I also don't see D/W struggling next year as much as Subway is implying. I think they're seen as the more versatile team by a lot of people because they repeatedly have the more crowd friendly and audience pleasing programs, set to different themes/stories (whether that actually makes them more versatile IDK). V/M on the other hand, there are more people that feel all they do are romantic programs, they don't stretch themselves and are boring, boring, boring than there are people that do feel they are versatile and show variance in their programs.

    Also Subway I don't think some people wanting to seeing what other choreographers would do with V/M is such a bad thing. It'll just be them getting a different perspective from the one they are right now--I think Proustable said it best in the actors analogy used.
     
  26. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    9,206
    Can we stop using the phrase 'Pyrrhic victory' please?

    It makes no sense whatsoever to characterize any figure skating win as Pyrrhic unless the victors broke their legs or something and will never be able to compete again. Just because you think D/W should have won does not mean that V/M's win was 'Pyrrhic'. That is the epitome of ridiculous melodrama and it's nonsensical, to say the least.
     
  27. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    793
    I think we can all agree that their win was not pyrrhic. We're all on the same point, no? Nevertheless, I really enjoyed learning this new word and think it is a rather interesting take on certain sport victories.

    Let's all have a cocktail break and reeeelaaax. I'll buy the first round. Golly, where are you clarie and bkf?
     
  28. Shayii

    Shayii Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,866
    Lol I'll take a midori sour then please. But seriously where is everybody else? Come back!
     
  29. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,583
    Everybody is enjoying Canada Day!

    I had two lovely days at the cottage and have to rest at home after all the entertaining so am trolling the boards. Weather in Toronto is beyond fabulous.
     
  30. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    I can't take WTT seriously even if the ISU wants us to.

    I'm curious what would constitute complete success? What's that season look like?

    I don't think one follows the other or that the noise in some quarters - always there, every season - had anything to do with WTT. Or that noise was especially loud this year. Everybody's politicking. Sochi is coming up. Everybody is trying to have influence.

    What is the "relevance" of the noise? What does that have to do with VM's win potential? Have the rules been changed to a popular vote? Do we know VM would lose that? Has there been a year everyone agreed the winner was the right winner, nobody complaining?

    I hope so because they can only benefit from more scrutiny. The difficulty and quality of what they're doing can only more clearly emerge. D/W no longer having the edge with speed and power will become more apparent to more observers. Bring on the scrutiny. What is it about FF that was problematic? Is it more than the points made by Proustable? That's just noise on the internet (it not being supposedly fan friendly, for reasons Proustabe articulated) and internet noise exploited by some commentators with agendas. It's only going to increase. FF was a difficult program built to flourish under scrutiny. I hope next season's program is as difficult.

    Originally Posted by pani
    That's untrue. "People" say D/W are all fast fast fast, too rushed, don't hold their moves, don't show the same control, don't have physical versatility of VM. Lack unison. I never paid attention to Meryl's dangling free leg until fans picked at it.

    There's always noise on the internet from fans or interested parties, banging the drum. That's what it is - noise. People said Michelle Kwan was boring - even journalist type people, and she should see the writing on the wall with Sasha's arrival. It's noise.

    I think every season so far has showed them to be plenty smart and the people who understand their career better than any fan. They've been grown up a long time, and I couldn't be happier.

    Where would this bad program come from? Why is this something people worry about? Do you mean bad program again? Like the bad program they won Worlds with by 3 points over the D/W masterpiece? I hope we don't get a disaster like that again.

    I enjoy their programs, many people do considering the youtube hits they get the second a new program is unveiled. I don't think they've had an unsuccessful program since Malanguela (which won them Jr. Worlds?) and I wasn't in love with Dark Eyes. The difference between them and D/W only works in their favor when scrutiny intensifies. Their only problem is they have close rivals. It wouldn't be as exciting if they didn't.

    It doesn't because as it's ice dancing, versatility is shown in different rhythms and tempos, in dance - not story. Theme is meaningless. How does consistently having more crowd pleasing programs show versatility? It seems to me that proves they're less versatile if D/W consistently choose that direction. Theme and stories has nothing to do with figure skating versatility, although they're not diverse in that respect either. Theatrical stories is a genre. Anyway, story is just a point of access, a cherry on the sundae. How do the lot of people who think D/W are more versatile impact the judging next season and for the Olympics? A lot of people think VM are a whole lot better. Which bunch of people are going to sway the judges?

    I don't know for sure D/W will struggle next year, but Die Fleudermaus, in my eyes, maxed out what they do best - the excitement, speed, drama, all set to familiar dramatic music with clear cut, not challenging, rhythms, easy for the audience to get swept along. Better still, as it happened to be such an explicit dance rythym, the waltz, they finally appeared to be dancing. Every base covered. Can they top it? If they do another familiar, big, sweeping, busy-looking, exuberant seeming program will it be an anticlimax? The other option is - switch gears. Can they? They're not VM, they don't have that rhythmic diversity and control. The tango won them Worlds but against a hobbled Virtue/Moir and overall I wouldn't say that was encouraging, or showed the results maybe they and their coaches hoped for. I think it's a huge challenge, one I imagine Marina will be able to meet, but I'm super curious, because it seems daunting to me.

    It's ice dance. They do different rhythms and different dances. That's the difference that counts in their sport. And - can I see where you get your statistics please? I believe Saraharain took that one down in a great post not long ago. Every time they unveil a new dance it gets huge amounts of hits overnight on youtube. I think there's no basis for what you just said, outside of the same people I was talking about, the people who are frustrated because they want Tessa and Scott to do non-Marina choreography. So really, that's not an argument.

    Virtue and Moir aren't actors - a detail which seems lost on some people. They're competitive, ambitious athletes who want a second gold medal. Why do they need a different perspective? All things considered, my perspective is if you're with the best, there's no need to go to someone else. Marina has created tons of versatile programs with incredible musical variety for Virtue and Moir. They've excelled at all of it. They feel she's the best around. I don't believe they want to go to someone they consider not as good just for variety for its own sake. I agree with them, obviously, but the point is, that's what they think. They think she's the best. Therefore, there's no incentive to go to someone lesser for their competitive seasons. They get David Wilson and perhaps others when they do shows. It's not a bad thing to want another choreographer, but it's become the agenda around which every Virtue and Moir discussion here orbits. The answer is always leave Marina, and it doesn't matter how many gears have to switch, positions reverse, or speculation taken as fact to keep saying that's what they need because it's what a handful of fans want. The Canton coaching situation was a tour de force of gear switching and changing tunes.

    They're elite athletes; they are not actors. The analogy is really to argue that an athlete should go to a less successful coach just for the experience, even if he's won all of his or her championships under the coach he or she has, the best in the world. Should the Yankees have kicked out Joe Torre in the 1990s just to get a different perspective? Didn't people pass out in shock when Michelle Kwan ditched Frank Carroll before 2002? Why didn't they applaud her for wanting a different perspective?

    Obviously, there are people who believe that Marina is not the best in the world, or at least they're tired of her, which to them is the same thing, so they want VM to go elsewhere. And they fix on outside comments that agree with their own opinion - they're bored, therefore VM are boring. They're tired of it, therefore VM need to change.

    The problem is VM don't agree with those people. Their competitive results don't agree either. Many fans don't agree too. I think a lot of the so called problems are nothing but what a competitive career looks like, have nothing to do with Marina, and are otherwise a tempest in a teapot. However some people will never stop saying Tessa and Scott need to skate to someone else's choreography for the simple reason that's what they want Tessa and Scott to do. So whatever the topic or perceived problem, it can be addressed by leaving Marina. But no, that's not agenda. Oh no. That's looking out for VM.

    I find it sad and ironic from VM fans, because everything Scott and Tessa love about the sport, everything they're proud of in their career, is apparently the stuff that bores some of their biggest fans. They love Scott and Tessa for some reason, but hate their taste, are bored by dance and don't appreciate the incredibly difficult rhythms they skate to or musical diversity they show. They're growing increasingly frustrated that their dream of Dean or someone else won't come true - but why do they have that dream in the first place? That's not Tessa and Scott. Tessa and Scott aren't cooperating even though every time there's a burp in the atmosphere it's taken as a sign that they wil leave Marina. And they don't. So let's look for reasons why they should.I didn't see anyone out there producing like Marina, as sensational marrying music to movement as Marina. In her use of momentum, the building of suspense, her placement of highlights (twizzles, especially), her taste, her intelligence, her judgment - IMO unmatched. She's not where she is by accident, and she's not there because she's backstabbing one team in favor of another. It's because she's the best and isn't that what a competitive athlete wants in a coach?

    To squeeze in one more comment, there was some mid-season talk about Marina giving D/W Die Fleudermaus and VM Funny Face (compared to That's Entertainment, by some, which - I can't even). Marina and Igor actually gave D/W Le Strada and VM Funny Face. The USFSA was unenthused by what they saw at Champs Camp. So came Die Fleudermaus, after Funny Face.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012