Vegans Complain about Yeast in Hot Dog Buns

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by overedge, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Yes, there is emerging discussion on this point as the whole locavore movement has taken off and it's become almost an assumption that it's the way to go. There are many arguments for buying local - supporting the local economy, fresher food that doesn't require as many chemicals/genetic modification to keep it presentable during long transportation, smaller carbon footprint, celebrating local culture/foodways and even the idea that some have that are bodies are not equipped to handle foods that are "exotic" to our environment.

    On the other side, supporting economies in third world countries and encouraging farmers/producers to thrive isn't a bad thing either. Nothing wrong with trade either - we sell to them, they sell to us, no? While many people try to buy local as much as possible, they usually don't want to give up wine, coffee, spices and citrus fruits either, not to mention out of season fruits and veggies that are flown in from Mexico, Chile or Israel.

    And what is local anyway? Living in eastern Canada, if the argument is about carbon footprint and freshness etc, then I'm better off buying foods produced in New England than simply "Canada," which often means it's shipping across 3 timezones from BC (ditto "buy American" - much of produce is from California, so if you live in the northeast, are you better off buying Ontario and Quebec produce, or is it more important to "buy American"?).

    Plus since goods and people have been moving freely across the globe for millennia, I'm not buying the idea that physically we should eat only locally (not to mention that I live in a climate where fresh food is limited during the winter months), and I think cultural exchange through food is a really good thing (that's also been going on for thousands of years).

    The other thing to think about is that defining what's local can be quite difficult. For example, I read a stat awhile back that said 95% or so of apple juice is made from concentrate that is produced in China. They sell the concentrate to US and Canadian food companies, who package it and can legally label it "made in US/Canada." Similarly, another source says that "Scottish salmon" need only be packaged in Scotland to be labeled that - the salmon itself can come from anywhere, so if you really want Scottish salmon, the only guarantee is to catch it yourself or buy it directly from the fisherman.

    It's an interesting discussion IMO with no clear black/white, and a lot of grey.
     
  2. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Which...is completely beside the point. Fish are not vegetables or plants. If you claim you do not eat meat, and eat fish, or shellfish, or insects for that matter, and are therefore 'vegetarian', you are confused at best. They're all still animals. It doesn't matter whether they're "healthy" or not, as there's nothing inherently more healthy in omitting food groups. "Vegetarian" is not defined as "eats a healthy diet", it means "does not eat animals."

    That's pretty much what all three of us on the line said. We can accommodate allergies (though I would never dare make a 100% guarantee that something has never come into contact with another ingredient in any quantity EVER) but when the two things you don't eat (and we weren't told it was an allergy, just 'no garlic or olive oil') are principle ingredients in 90% of the cuisine...why would you come here?
     
  3. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    That is for sure. Since I work in the agriculture industy, it is a constant topic of discussion. That is why I said I have a "tiny beef" with people who buy for price rather than buying local. One of my co-workers sells grass-fed beef that he raises with his son, and he is annoyed that I don't buy from him, but he buys all his fuel, and most of his own groceries across the border in Maine, so I buy from other farmers who spend where they live.

    One of the food inspection agents was at our workplace when we were discussing the sale of lettuce imported from California, and the energy used to transport it across the continent, and he told us that it takes much less energy to grow lettuce in California and it made more sense to buy imported, if we were concerned about energy consumption.
     
  4. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    At least some of the people who buy for price can't afford to buy based on some esoteric principle. I don't see why one personal choice is acceptable but another one isn't.
     
  5. jeffisjeff

    jeffisjeff Well-Known Member

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    I posted this graphic a while back, and I'll post it again because I think it is cool. ;) It shows at the carbon footprint of wine imported to the US from various locations. If you live in NYC or Chicago, you are better off (from a carbon footprint perspective) buying French wine than California wine. It is all about trucks vs. boats/trains.

    http://www.drvino.com/2009/04/14/the-carbon-footprint-of-wine-in-national-geographic/
     
  6. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Interesting point! Much of what's in my local stores right now is hot house grown, so using fuel and water to produce rather than sunshine and rainfall - hard to calculate if that's better than shipping the produce in from California or Mexico.

    Many people also talk about American/Canadian jobs being sent to other countries by companies looking for cheaper labour. Years ago I toured a tomato cannery in Ontario - all the tomatoes were grown onsite, but guess who was doing all the harvesting? Jamaicans! Ever year during harvest season, the company flew in a planeload for a month or so because they couldn't find locals to do the labour. Personally I have no problem with that - but it's an interesting point to bring forward to those who think that buying a can of Aylmer tomatoes means they are being good locavores (not to mention that Aylmer is owned by ConAgra out of Omaha, Nebraska :lol:).
     
  7. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    The Sobeys grocery chain has started selling their fresh fish with an ID number that you can use to look up on the internet to track who caught it, what gear he/she used and where it was processed.

    One of my favourite things that Sobeys does in our area is attend the local Spring Show and Sale for livestock and they buy the local 4H Club winning steer and then sell it in their store. They also put up the name of any farm that has suppied anything in their produce section. One of the things I really appreciate about my rural lifestyle is that it is very easy to stay connected that way.

    On the other hand- I'm tempted to drive back to Quebec City (6 hours) to go to that little bakery and buy some more of that pecan/poppyseed/sea salt brioche I bought there last week.
     
  8. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a difference between being a vegetarian and eating mostly vegetarian. Someone who eats meat (including fish) is not a vegetarian.
     
  9. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Local has become trendy. I'm all for supporting local economies, but admit that don't really double check the food I buy for where it comes from. And our bodies do handle plenty of foods that aren't indigenous. That would be coffee, tea and citrus fruits for many of us.

    On the other side, supporting economies in third world countries and encouraging farmers/producers to thrive isn't a bad thing either. Nothing wrong with trade either - we sell to them, they sell to us, no? While many people try to buy local as much as possible, they usually don't want to give up wine, coffee, spices and citrus fruits either, not to mention out of season fruits and veggies that are flown in from Mexico, Chile or Israel.


    This is true. But foods are among the many things being transported by truck and plane. As shown by the National Geographic graph posted above, boat has a much smaller carbon footprint.

    I find interesting that environmentalists can be very big on buying local, but wouldn't couldn't forgoing airplane travel because of its environmental impact. It is easy to be environmentally conscious if it only means doing things that come easily, like shopping at the local farmers market.
     
  10. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Now ubering Machida's hair

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    For me buying local has more todo with taste than environment - tomatoes in season are so much better, so I try to make the most of it.

    I'm also pragmatic though, if I want tomatoes out of season I try to find some that are ok.
     
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Why more interesting than the "mostly Kosher" or "mostly vegetarian" options that you talked about upthread? Finding pure saints is difficult, and people do what they can/want/are interested in. Is it better to not have incremental change? For every compact that drove up today to the Unitarian Church parking lot to pick up their grass-fed animal delivery today, there were three SUVs. In my book that's better than four SUVs or three SUV owners buying cheap, grain-fed with GMO grain, antibiotic-laden meat.

    Do you know for certain that the net affects of planes are greater than the transport of food? One of my old housemates told me he had bumped into a friend who is an environmental engineer, and when he apologized to the friend for planning a plane trip, the friend told him that air travel was a drop in the bucket compared to cars, and the best thing he could do for the environment would be to get rid of his car and use public transportation.

    One issue with eating local is that huge water and energy resources can be consumed to create and grow food that isn't indigenous to a climate or soil or out of season.
     
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  12. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I just find some environmentalists to be extremely hypocritical.

    Better than no change. With respect to the environment, I fear it may be too little change, and too late.
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    When my pescatarian friend did a half-year contract in Romania, he kept trying to find out if there was vegetarian food in restaurants. He kept getting blank looks. Finally, a co-worker and friend told him the word for food you eat at Lent -- i.e., no meat -- and it worked like a charm.
     
  14. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Now ubering Machida's hair

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    A Buddhist co-worker of mine learned a couple of Danish words for some running office jokes - one of the was 'kartoffel' which means potato.

    Later he went to travel the world and told me it saved him in Germany - vegetarians are not that common either, but side potato is te same in Danish and German, in small towns he could order potatoes :p.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    My experience of eating in Germany reminded me of this scene from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding:"

    except substitute "pork" for "lamb."
     
  16. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget GPF in Quebec City:

    Customer: "Un pizza quatre fromages."
    Waitress: "Oui."

    [60 minutes later]

    Waitress: "Voila. Un pizza quatre fromages." (four cheese pizza)
    Customer: "Merci."

    [before eating it, notices there is pepperoni on the pizza.]

    Customer: "Excuse moi, je voulais un pizza quatre fromages."
    Waitress: "Oui." [with a confused face]
     
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    :lol: How could I forget?
     
  18. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :duh:

    That kind of Vegan. I thought this thread was about this kind of Vegan. :eek:
     
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  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    My friend just gave me a late Hannukah and early Christmas present:

    Mr. Bacon vs. Monsieur Tofu

     
  20. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    My beef with the eat local crowd, is that if everyone on the planet only ate locally produced organic food, there wouldn't (on fact, couldn't) be enough food and people would starve. People are able to do it now because so many people don't. There is a really good reason we have moved away from subsistence farming. It is kind of like the mom at our school who preaches about the evil of cars and how she would never own one. Funny, she doesn't seem to mind when I drive her child on a field trip, or give her a ride home when it rains.
     
  21. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Why is it when it comes to food, we expect people to follow a specific diet 100%? We don't even expect that for people of a specific faith.
     
  22. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    I think I was the first one to mention buying local on this thread, but I have seen a plethora of facts that support your statement.

    Buying local, and eating organic foods for health or environmental reasons is a mostly pointless action. But it is a good action to support one's local economy. And it is important to maintain some genetic diversity and some geographic diversity in our food supply, so that a complete crop failure and/or famine can be avoided.
     
  23. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    I just sent that to my vegan friend. :rofl:
     
  24. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    It is hard to argue that organic isn't better for the environment. OTOH, it's hard to provide solid evidence of the health benefits of eating organic, especially since its such a new trend and therefore too soon to do longitudinal studies on it. I haven't been convinced to buy organic veggies and fruit, though probably would buy more if the local greengrocer sold it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Actually there are several arguments that organic isn't better for the environment including the one that it uses more water (which is important in parts of the world where water is scarce).

    As for it being healthier, there really isn't anything about most organic practices that would make me think organic food is automatically healthier. For many fruits and vegetables, there is no difference in pesticide levels between organic versions of the food an non-organic that has been washed well, as an example. Plus growing food organically doesn't make it have more nutrients.

    I mostly use organic products when the non-organic versions have too much added crap. For example, one organic cottage cheese I sometimes buy has only 3 ingredients (basically milk) but the non-organic version has all these thickeners and flavorings and other crap that's designed to make the food look a certain way and last longer. BUT there are organic foods that are full of crap too -- it's just organic crap -- and the yogurt I buy only has two ingredients (milk and active cultures) but it's not organic. So organic is no guarantee of anything IME.
     
  26. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    This has been my thinking on the buy local issue. We live in a globalized economy which is in many ways a good thing but it will be strongest if regions sustain their own economies and maintain the ability to provide necessities for themselves.
     
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Organic food is prohibited from having NGO GMO product, and while harmful pesticides might be able to be washed off, the farm workers are still subjected to them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  28. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    But that has nothing to do with how healthy the end product is which is what was being debated by rjblue and myself.
     
  29. rjblue

    rjblue Re-registered User

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    The main reason for the development of GMO products is to be able to genetically induce traits that enable a variety to resist pests, and thus use much less pesticides to grow the crop. The collapse of the ability to use GMO technology is a major setback to integrated pest management and pesticide reduction.

    And acre for acre organic crops use less pesticides (but not none) and less fertilizer (but not none) and since it takes far more ground to feed the same amount of people, it's an environmental negative. After 30 years of lunchroom discussion, my conclusion is that it makes no sense to have your own vegetable garden or livestock, and then use pesticides on them. And it makes no sense to have a strictly organic commercial farm- so many of their regulations are a bit irrational.
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Perhaps if we didn't waste so much food, we wouldn't need to grow as much.