Vanessa Crone

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by puglover, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    629
    Does anybody know if Vanessa has found a new partner? I was so sorry to hear of her split with Paul. She always seemed to have spunk and I really liked her athletic style. I hope this is not the end of her dance career.
  2. Ladida

    Ladida Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    I thought she is skating now with K. Hubbell. I definitely saw some pics with her and other icedancers from Camarlengo group. Can anyone confirm it?
  3. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    693
    I was there enjoying watching skating and i dont remember seeing her there. Shae Lynn was there and she's even more beautiful in person :D She might of been there earlier in the day but was not there when i was... i dont think... lol
  4. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,409
    Does anyone think Crone/Hill would make a good team? Though Ralph/Hill have improved, basically she is nowhere near as good as he is and is holding the team down. He needs a better partner - he's an excellent dancer with a great sense of rhythm, but he'll never get anywhere IMO until he gets a better partner.

    And to leave Vanessa languishing without a partner is just so wrong - she's the Jana of Canada - definitely too good to waste.
  5. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    No, that plan fell through ages ago I believe. (Though you are right that they were trying out earlier).
  6. smithie

    smithie New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Messages:
    35
    Vanessa and Keifer started a partnership at the end of September and were skating at DSC with Camrlengo. They skated together until December, and were looking really amazing. They would have given G/P more than just a run for their money. They had synched together beautifully and had great charisma together.

    However, Keifer is a much more accomplished skater, nationally and internationally than Piper, and the USFSA was not willing to grant a release for him as they did with her. Nor does he have a Canadian family connection to get him a quick citizenship as Piper does.

    It is really too bad as they truly had great potential. I wish them both good luck, but in particular Vanessa, who is a very talented skater with lovely edges. As the female, though, she will have a much more difficult time finding a suitable partner than Keifer - if she even wants to after all she must have been through in the last 8 months.

    Maybe Keifer can skate with Piper and Vanessa and Paul can get back together.
  7. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    698
    and I assume the Canadian Fed won't release Vanessa either? if they were to skate for the US?
  8. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    Piper and Keifer had already tried out, and it did not work out, because I believe Madison Chock was his first choice. After she turned him down for Evan Bates, Keifer wanted Piper back, but of course, she was with Paul and would not be Keifer's second choice.

    Vanessa and Keifer tried out, but unfortunately the dilemma here was that neither federation would release either of them, and the partnership dissolved because there the Olympics would not have been possible.
  9. mirage

    mirage Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    163


    They did not just ```try out`` . This was a very good, go ahead partnership with full steam ahead training.

    The Olympics is not the be all and end all. The issue is that an athlete has to be released by their federation to even compete internationally. Piper is in Canada, because she thinks she has a good shot at getting to the Olympics, which she would not have had a prayer to do in the USA.

    Vanessa competed at Worlds in 2011, is a National Champion and an Olympic athlete. Not a hope she will be released any time soon. With the skategods in their corner, Vanessa and Keifer might have had a chance to compete in 2014-2015 at the earliest. We all know in Ice Dance that may as well be an eternity.
  10. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    Ugh, that's terribly depressing. I was so intrigued by the rumblings about Vanessa and Keiffer, but the potential release issue made me wonder.

    There's also an odd sort of "wrongness" to me (even as I understand it from the fed's perspective) that dancers and pairs skaters with less success have that greater advantage in creating new partnerships.
  11. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    698
    They trained together for quite some time, it wasn't just a "try out", and it didn't fall through ages ago.
  12. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Messages:
    8,603
    I always thought that Keiffer would look good with Charlotte Lichtman, but I would never advocate splitting up any team.
  13. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    I'm not entirely sure which team you are referring to about me saying "try out", Piper and Keiffer? or Vanessa and Keiffer?

    Because it was simply a try out for Piper and Keiffer, not a partnership. With Vanessa, yes I did say "try out" but i meant it in a different sense (from Piper and Keiffer) that it was a partnership that would have worked had they been able to have the possibility of going to the Olympics for 2014. Unfortunately, this was not going to happen, but YES you are correct that the earliest they could compete internationally IF either one of them were released by their federation, would be in 3 years/seasons hence missing the 2014 Olympics and unfortunately, this was the crucial point that dissolved that temporary/short partnership. (tryout - whatever you want to call it)

    With regards to Piper, certainly with Paul, and competing in Canada, the chances of going to the Olympics are certainly higher, but that is only part of the reason, there are many other reasons (they work well together, coaches knew Piper from before, able to be released and compete internationally after one year, and again as I mentioned above, she was not going to be Keiffer's second choice, Chock being his first - btw, I really hope I'm not mixing up Emily Samuelson and Madison Chock, I'm pretty sure it was Madison, but it has been a few months so my memory has faded a bit). There are also probably more reasons I don't know about, but those are the ones I do know, but yes, being able to compete internationally after only 1 year is something Piper and Paul is able to do, but not Vanessa and Keiffer.

    Ok, ok, I was exaggerating a little when I said ages ago because it has been only a couple months since the partnership dissolved (as far as I've heard, I know Vanessa was by herself back in Canada by November, I didn't know she was still with Keiffer in Dec. is the poster above who posted sure of that?). As I just mentioned above, I said "try out" because the partnership hinged on whether or not it was even possible for them to compete at the 2014 Olympics, and not only that, but also the 3 years they must wait to even compete internationally...
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    The citizenship rules are quite clear, and based on being a permanent resident and having three out of four years of residency in Canada, or getting an exception granted at high levels of government, like Kaitlyn Weaver did.

    Hubbell would qualify for permanent residency just as easily as Gllles without any family connection whatsoever, because through his "participation at a world-class level in cultural activities or athletics" he would be considered a self-employed person who has "relevant experience that will make a significant contribution to the cultural or athletic life of Canada."
  15. tapper88

    tapper88 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Messages:
    311
    Just curious, how did Kaitlyn end up getting an exception granted? (I'm glad she did!)
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    I don't know what the process is, i.e., whether she applied for it or was nominated, but it took a decision by the federal cabinet to issue a special grant of citizenship:

    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2009/2009-06-22a.asp

    (This announcement was made by Immigration Canada and posted to its website.)
  17. smithie

    smithie New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Messages:
    35

    Yes, receiving permanent residency would apply to both of them but an expedited citizenship is not so easy. From G/P, because she has family with Canadian citizenship, she can receive/be grandfathered to Canadian citizen on an accelerated timeline.
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    As a child born outside Canada, if Gilles has at least one Canadian parent, including those parents born outside Canada and lost/couldn't get (because of holding another citizenship that prevented it) Canadian citizenship between 1947 and 1977, she would automatically be a citizen, She would need only to file before age 28 that plans to keep Canadian citizenship and apply for proof of citizenship in order to get a passport; there's no expedited citizenship process.

    The CIC site says nothing about expedited citizenship for people born outside Canada before 17 April 2009 and who have family members who are Canadian citizens, while it has extensive information for those who wish to sponsor family members for permanent residency. It's also interesting that for the years that I have been a part of forums for families immigrating to Canada, that there was never a single mention of any expedited process for citizenship, apart from provisions of a new law that applied to children born after 17 April 2009, and that question is asked rather frequently.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2001
    Messages:
    4,921
    Kind of funny that a thread about Vanessa Crone turns into a discussion about Piper's citizenship, but I believe one of the articles that came out of the Canadian challenge discussion indicated that it's one of Piper's maternal grandparents who is Canadian, and that her mom was going through the process of getting her citizenship, because doing so would somehow make Piper's citizenship faster/easier. I can't speak to whether any of that is true, but I can't see why Piper's mom would be dealing with citizenship now if it wasn't some benefit.
  20. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    The rules are tricky due to the 2009 law, which tries to prevent Canadian citizenship for those who live outside Canada for multiple generations, but if Gilles' mother qualifies for Canadian citizenship through her mother, including her Gilles' mother and/or grandmother having it reinstated automatically by the 2009 or earlier law/ruling, then Gilles, having been born before 17 April 2009, would automatically become a Canadian citizen. Gilles wouldn't have to apply for citizenship, but would need to apply for proof of citizenship to get a passport. If her mother doesn't qualify, then Gilles has to go through the PR route, which Hubbell would have had to do, as would any non-Canadian with whom Crone would team up.

    I was wrong about Gilles having to file before age 28: I misread a qualification that doesn't apply to her, but may apply to her mother.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  21. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    223
    I'm a proud Canadian through and through, but I really think at this high level we need to do what is best for the athletes. To me it seems like a fair trade. Canada can keep Piper, and the US can keep Vanessa. Maybe there are easier routes to citizenship for Vanessa in the US.

    I get that there has been some support and commitment to Vanessa (and Paul) over the years in Canada, but I'm pretty sure the lion's share of the expenses were not paid by Skate Canada, but her parents and private supporters. She's already given back by winning Nationals and participating internationally for many years. Why can't we just let her go and skate with someone who is a good match for her? I don't see why Skate Canada should "own" any athlete. At the Senior level, the field of potential is exceptionally small, even internationally. There should be some way for this partnership, if it is good fit, to be possible.
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    Does anyone know the details on USFS' position on Hubbell? USFS has been inconsistent with the lengths of releases. According to Gilles, USFS is holding her for two seasons. It told Matthews it would hold her for four, the maximum its own rules say they can. They released her partner, Maxim Zavozin, in less than that; at the time, there were allegations that the Hungarian Fed paid USFS for the earlier release and that Zavozin had to pay back the Hungarian Fed.

    Did USFS agree to the same release schedule as Gilles, which was too late for Crone, or did they say they would keep him for longer/the maximum?

    There is a rule in the ISU constitution that allows the ISU to grant release after two years to citizens and, in some cases, permanent residents of a second Federation, if the second Federation files for the exception. I wonder if USFS' agreement to release Gilles and Zavozin in two seasons, the same amount of time in the ISU exception process, stemmed from likely impending citizenship in the new Federations country, but insist on longer terms for those who don't have the citizenship route.
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,864
    Gilles' last international competition was 2010 JW, where she and Zach Donohue placed 9th. Their last medal was in the 2009-2010 JGP, where they won two bronze medals. They made the JGPF but withdrew before the competition. The US is holding Piper back until nearly 2013, about 3 years.

    The Hubbells won bronze at 2010 4CC. The US could refuse to release him until 2014 on that basis.
  24. miffy

    miffy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Are these federations that refuse releases actively helping/trying to find a suitable match for the skaters?
  25. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,469
    Nope. They're ... not taking into consideration the athletes there, just the medal potential they can loose. Sore loosers.
  26. marbri

    marbri Hey, Kool-Aid!

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2001
    Messages:
    11,184
    The Olympics are in two years. Even if both were released by their federations I don't see how either could gain citizenship in two years? Isn't that what somebody on the previous page said was the main issue for them?
  27. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,475
    It's just such a shame that there are wonderful skaters like Vanessa who are world class that cannot skate because of these rules set out by federations. We are being robbed as well as them :(.
  28. mirage

    mirage Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    163

    The Olympics is just one competition, albeit quite the event.

    The issue is a federation release is required for an athlete to compete at ANY international competition. Without it they would be training to compete at Nationals only, with no opportunity to go anywhere from there.
  29. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,271
    Crone, K. Hubbell, and Yankowskas . . . :drama::wuzrobbed. I really hope to see them all back on the ice competing soon!
  30. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,803
    Really feeling bad for Vanessa and others who are in skating limbo like this. Here's to hoping something can be done soon.
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,397
    He could with a special grant of citizenship like Kaitlyn Weaver got. Weaver was in Canada longer although not for the full three years of residency normally required, but since Crone/Hubbell would have been training in Canada for nearly three seasons by 2014 had they teamed early this season, it would have been possible had they been competitive, which is not a given, with Paul/Islam and Gilles/Poirier in the mix, and with Gilles/Poirier able to get in 1.75 seasons of international competition before Soichi. If the ISU sticks with the split couple rules for the alternates list, C/P will get a GP slot next season, and Skate Canada can assign one of their slots.
  32. marbri

    marbri Hey, Kool-Aid!

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2001
    Messages:
    11,184
    One way to solve all this is for Paul and Vanessa to get back together. I know, just a dream of mine.
  33. Mevrouw

    Mevrouw living every minute

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    9,075
    I actually like the new pairing of G & P better. There's a whole different energy to the team and it seems to showcase Paul's exquisite skating better.
  34. mirage

    mirage Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    163
    Of course it showcases his skating, Gilles has nowhere near the skill or lightness of Crone. So the contrast of skating is very noticeable - result Paul shines.
  35. Penniless Rostrum

    Penniless Rostrum Looking for my siggy!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2001
    Messages:
    175
    yea no offense to dear Piper but it is the "Paul Poirier Show" as far as I can see!!!!!!! I really don't think this pairing will last, maybe he and Jana could team up :kickass: good luck to Piper & Paul at Nats.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  36. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    223
    Definitely the Paul Poirier Show, and lots of lobbying and pumping going on. I almost wish they had taken the year to really work on their unison, lines and partnering together. That's what they are really going to need to be successful internationally. The challenge with getting over-scored so ridiculously at home is that they can be setup for one huge disappointment when they reach the international stage. What they do is very entertaining, and a whole lot of fun to watch, and they are clearly enjoying themselves, but I wouldn't call it dancing. It's a series of tricks. And next to some very good teams who have such great lines, edges and real dancing skills, they are going to be very lucky to land in the top 10 in the world. It will not be an improvement over Crone/Poirier. That's the thing.... There are no short cuts in ice dance. You have to put in the time to have the unison and line and edges and quality skating together. It doesn't just happen.

    I like the energy of the new team. I like that they are enjoying themselves. I like that Paul is the leader in this team. I think he was the pampered boy by both Crone and his coaches in his former partnership. But it seems a bit of an over-correction. Only time will tell how this team develops and matures together. For now, I feel that they are very over-scored, and I fear it will only serve to hurt them in the long-term. There is no reason or benefit to doing so now.
  37. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,271
    I believe their scores have been reasonable given the level of performances and competitors they've competed against so far. Ralph/Hill admittedly had a very disastrous outing in the one event (The Challenge) they competed in with Gilles/Poirier. Paul is an infinitely better skater than any other dancer that competed in their Sectionals. The scoring is relative to the competitors in the event. It's not like Paul and Piper competed against a clean Virtue/Moir or Weaver/Poje and received the scores they have thus far.
  38. marbri

    marbri Hey, Kool-Aid!

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2001
    Messages:
    11,184
    Have to agree with that. After a few viewings I realized I was focusing on Paul and trying to block her out. They obviously didn't want to work together anymore but from the waist down those two were perfect together.
  39. dancefan17

    dancefan17 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    186
    I actually think this year IS a building year for them-- really just a few competitions to get ready for next year. As much as I liked Vanessa and Paul, love the energy of Piper and Paul and am optimistic they will grow as a team...
  40. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    This is a more conventional looking pairing but he's not appearing as the leading man if that was expected. He's the showpiece and she is decoration. An "overcorrection" - yes. He and Vanessa were sharp, strong, and didn't look like every other team. Not romantic chemistry but it wasn't brother/sister. Very powerful.

    I miss her skating. Very disappointed about the Hubbell situation.