Value of an Olympic/World title

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by DimaToe, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. DimaToe

    DimaToe Well-Known Member

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    So going through all of the "Survivor" threads on here I've seen people dismissing skater's victories because of a supposed weak field during that competition. So it got me thinking, do you feel that some world/Olympic titles are worth more than others? (Ex. 2006 vs. 2010 Oly ladies) Or are all olympic/world titles equal, regardless of the level of competition?

    I'd really like to see what you all think :D
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Subjectively speaking of course some titles are worth more than others. Do people view Sato's 94 World title or Meissner's 2006 World title as on par with Ito's 89 World title or Kwan's 96 and 2001 World titles for instance. That isnt mean, it is just reality.
  3. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    As memories fade, all the titles become equal.
  4. duane

    duane New Member

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    Historically, the titles are all equal. There will be no asterisk next to one's Worlds/Olympic title because of a supposed weak field.

    But of course, when it comes to discussions on skating sites, it's a whole new ballgame. For the most part (tho not totally), I think all skaters who have won World/Olympic titles deserve praise, but I do find certain wins more impressive than others.
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I feel I have to assign them all the same value or we could argue forever which ones are worth more. However, in an opinion-based poll, OPINIONS on which ones are more valuable can enter into decisions, but those are just that: opinions, not FACT.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Memories may fade but reviews of what happened will persist. We still hear often about Poetzsch "controversial" 1980 gold, about the epic Battle of the Brians, about Janet Lynn owning the field in free skating but losing gold to a clunky figures specialist, about Meissner winning Worlds the year almost none of the top skaters were there.
  7. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Die-hard skating fans: Not equal
    Normal people: Equal
    :p
  8. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    I feel like most world titles become equal as time goes on, but most people have greater memories of the Olympic golds and their controversies, or battles etc.
  9. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lol: I am NORMAL.
  10. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    As a fan, I don't care if the skater has a title or not. It's the performance that counts.

    I will always remember the way Kwan skated to Taj Mahal in 1997 but not the way Ando skated to Grieg Concerto in 2011.

    That's why I don't like to count titles or medals. Each competition has different depth. I mean, with all due respect, Bonaly and Slutskaya are multiple Euro Champs, but mostly during eras reigned by Americans or Asians and they were mostly runner ups during those years they won Euros.
  11. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    I was waiting for the Ando bashing. I'm waiting for the Butyrskaya hate.
    It get's old real fast :mad:
    In terms of a performance I remember Kwan winning Lalique in 96' as much as her Olympic silver in 98'. Or Ando's free skate at the Worlds in 2010 as much as Yamaguchi winning the Worlds in 91'.
    So for me it's the enjoyment of the programe not the end result.
    Results in the past have made me want to stick my head in the oven !.
    Affection for skaters are what drive our memories & how important they are IMO.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    LOL at your Slutskaya reference. Irina won Worlds twice, was top 2 at Worlds 5 times, won the Grand Prix final 4 times, and was the dominant skater in the regular season in the 2000-2001, 2001-2002, 2004-2005, and 2005-2006 seasons. She was a dominant skater period, not just in Europe. Until Arakawa in Turin after a poor skate from Irina she was never looking up at an Asian on a major podium.
  13. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    YES !
  14. query5

    query5 New Member

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    sorry irina was dominate due to the fact they (russian federation) heavily cheated for her. like euros won on 3 jumps.
    would allow michelle never. overlooked alot of irinas mistakes.

    to me irina wasn't as dominate why 1) after 2002 michelle didn't compete in gp events and in 2001-2002 especially in final shouldn't have won.


    assign same value for olympics and worlds-but not gp events why some injured some not some showed up some not, and not all people competed.

    worlds and olympics are same value -however is what PEOPLE and PUBLIC thinks of them.-so difference in value at all times based on opinion.
    people won't agree on all things, skates etc. so alot of this stuff is useless fun and no bearing on skater, medal, title whatsoever.
    how people think of them later that matters , how the skater/team acts that matters in the end and conduct them selvers.
  15. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure all medals are the same. They should be. But, isn't a World title a little diminished in the year after the OLYS when so many of the winners don't skate. That year, the World title is not a picture of who was outstanding that year, but rather a picture of who was left standing.

    OLYS is a whole different ball game than Worlds. (and this from a friend who is an OGM winner). Worlds is every year.....OLYS once in four. It is THE prize. OLY Gold can set you up for life.

    And as to Query5 - Irina was the dominant skater because she was....well the dominant skater. One could make an argument about almost any skater that she/he only won because (insert name of your fave) had an off night.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Europeans had the weakest competition of all Irina's years as a top skater. Poykio came 2nd with 5 triples, the same Poykio who cant even beat a clean Emily Hughes, so of course Irina won with 3 triples, especialy a clean short by her does and should have put way way ahead of skaters like Poykio (if I recall she didnt even win the LP over Poykio and Liashenko that year).

    Michelle was never a threat to Irina under COP in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006, and would have been no challenge to an on fire Irina doing some of her strongest skating ever in the grand prix either of those seasons. She did beat Michelle and others regularly on the grand prix in the early 2000s. Thus your point is completely moot.

    I agree that Michelle should have won the 2002 Grand Prix final but I thought Irina should have won in 1996 since they should have been 2nd and 5th in the short program. Either way it doesnt matter, 3 or 4 Grand Prix final wins makes little difference to things.
  17. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    Irina competed on almost all Europeans, while Michelle never competed on 4CC. I never understood that to be honest. I guess 4CC is not valuable to the NA federations as Europeans are to european federations.

    I dont remember Kimmie at all from 2006, i THINK Morozov was the choreographer, but thats all.
    Most of Plushenkos post 2003 titles are foggy to me because the repetitions of same stuff.
    Ice dance is more rememberable for some reason, though I would like to forget most of Navka&Kostomarov programs...

    Historically, the value is the same, but some careers and titles gained more public attention and sometimes there was no competition so it was just not interesting.
  18. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on the impact, maybe? Take, for example, Kimmie Meissner's first world championship and Michelle Kwan's first world championship.

    Michelle's performances at those worlds shot her into another level above every one else she was competing against. She became IT. the one to beat. and then there is the whole "transformation" thing that some ladies have tried to do but it just always falls flat. (how many times do we see "this is her salome" and...its the same as what they were doing before). It was a legendary moment in skating.

    Kimmie's was very nice and exciting and she deserved to win and skated awesome, but there was really no impact made in the skating world and basically its just a nice story. LOL.

    As far as the Olympics go...lets look at Yuna and Sarah. Even though Yuna is a much better and more decorated skater than Sarah Hughes...I would again say that Sarah's win is more legendary. It has everything that the Olympics are made of-drama, underdog winning, all that stuff. Any time someone performs as the underdog at the Olympics...chances are Sarah will be mentioned in reference to the "anything can happen at the Olympics" scenario.
  19. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    It's been a decade since Sarah won and she is pretty much forgotten. For skating fans she is known as the one hit wonder and luckiest Olympic Champion of all time. To casuals, she's Sarah Who?
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  20. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    4CCs didn't exist until something like '99; IMO, it doesn't have the history or prestige of Europeans because it is so recent.
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sarah ruined her reputation in part by showing up in terrible shape for the following competitive season, then showing up in pathetic shape for her season of skating with Stars on Ice, unable to complete even double jumps cleanly, and being incredibly slow and heavy on the ice.
  22. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    No it doesn't have the history or prestige of Europeans. But Europeans isn't the competition it once was. And 4CC is arguably just as good competition and at times has been more competitive than Europeans. And fortunately gets taken serious as a competition now days.
  23. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    During the first years of Europeans non-European countries took part in those championships as well. Later they changed it into an event for European countries only.
  24. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    A gold is a gold. The ultimate prize for athletes should be the OGM. But it doesn't mean an athlete who doesn't achieve the ultimate prize/OGM is a lesser athlete.
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  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It was not during the first years, because Euros date back to 1890's for Men and 1930's for Ladies.
    IIRC, Euros were opened to North American skaters post-World War II, in 1947 and 1948 only. It was to thank North America for participating in WWII.
    After 1948, they decided to stop it (maybe because they won Men and Ladies titles !!!).
  26. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    How did I bash Ando? I didn't even mention Butyrskaya (plus I like her skating).

    Glad to see you pretty much agree with the rest of my post though, even if you don't agree with my examples.
  27. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    1996 was Michelle's third world championships having come 4th in Birmingham in 1995, and 8th in 1994. 2006 Worlds was Kimmie's first world championships, though she obvioulsy competed in the Olympics a few weeks before.
  28. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Gold is gold IMO. One world title is equal to another; however, the performances and/or circumstances are different in every competition. As a result, some wins are more exciting, dramatic, controversial, etc. than others. It comes down to what sticks out in your memory.

    Using Michelle as an example, I see her win at the 2000 worlds as her best b/c the way she won and the drama that went with it. She was 3rd after the SP and skated first in the last group which is always a bad draw b/c the judges have to leave room for the other top skaters. Michelle went out and delivered a flawless 7-triple program complete with 3-3, excellent speed, fire and attack...but she had to wait to see what would happen with Maria and Irina. In the end Michelle winning the LP won her the title, but there was some shuffling that happened due to Irina beating Maria and the standings flip-flopping or something. Point is it was exciting and drama-filled...it stands out for me b/c Michelle had to come out swinging in order to win and she did.
  29. duane

    duane New Member

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    Didn't she grow 20 inches after the Olympics?
  30. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Maybe sideways:p...oh, that was mean. I'm sorry...:slinkaway
  31. DimaToe

    DimaToe Well-Known Member

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    :yikes: ...Yeah it was, :rofl: But you do bring up a good point, even though she did grow taller after her olympic win, she was not in the best of shape (for an elite athlete) when 2003 worlds came around.
  32. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Well, that really has nothing to do with anything that I am talking about.

    Most casual fans don't remember anything from any Olympics after 10 years. Being Olympic Champion is not what it once was back in the 80's and prior.

    The US has had 4 Olympic champions since 1992 (Kristy, Tara, Sara, Evan) and NONE of them are a sort of pop culture icon the way Dorthy, Brian B, etc...were (and still are).

    My point was that Sarah's win will be regarded as a great moment in Olympic history. (not for me LOL but in general)
  33. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    There are certain skaters who haven't cracked top 15 in the World (Viktor Pfeifer, Jeremy Ten, Sergei Dobrin, Joey Russell, Jamal Othman) that I enjoy watching way more than Evan Lysacek or Evgeni Plushenko, so for me the Olympic and World title doesn't hold much weight at all. It's how you move me as a performer that matters.
  34. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Actually, I'd consider Kristi pretty relevant in pop culture especially after her DWTS appearance. People know who she is as much as Dorothy and Boitano.

    I understand what you are saying about Sarah's win but I have to disagree with it being one of the great moments in Olympic history. :D
  35. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    :eek:

    In general, so you mean in her own house?

    I think she was a very lucky skater, skating the best when everyone else didn't. But it was really only one competition out of her whole career and I don't even regard her as a great skater, gold or not/Olympics or not.

    It's like when a NASCAR driver who is in 8th and 7 cars ahead of him happen to crash and the one is 8th place wins. Is it a win? Sure, how meaningful is it, to me not very.
  36. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    It was not a great moment or meaningful for me in any way, as well.

    So when I say in general, I mean exactly that. In general. It was a great Olympic story of an underdog seizing the moment. A Cinderella story. I don't think the analogy you used would apply here...I would think it would apply more to 2006. 2002 Ladies had DRAMA. MK was in first place until Irina skated...everyone thinking Irina won...the results flip flopping...mass confusion, seeing Robin drag Sarah on the floor (barf). It was all very dramatic-just want viewers want to see during the Olympics. That is all I mean.

    That is all I am saying about it. I really don't like Sarah all that much to get in a big debate about it.
  37. Nours

    Nours Active Member

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    That's untrue. Euros were open to non european people before 1948. I can't say it's been since forever, there's no non european skaters on the tables before 1934, but it was certainly the case before world war II also.
    1934 Maribel Vinson 3rd. Taking a year to train in Europe after school, I don't remember where but I read that's what started the trend to go oversee to train with the english masters ; now it's the reverse situation (again, as I understand it so if there's error, fell free).
    1936 Toshikazu Katayama 7th (men), Kazuyoshi Oimatsu 9th (men), Tsugio Hasegawa gave up (men), Etsuko Inada 9th (ladies), all Japanese citizens a few years after the JSF creation in 1929 (gaining experience ? showing they entered the skating world ? it's only a guess).
    Source : 1892 - 1967 Figure skating results, Benjamin T. Wright, ISU publication.

    I'm not sure it was to thanks NA for participating in WWII. The rules said that whoever affiliated to a european figure skating association could enter European Championships : it wasn't a birthplace question. I thought it would had been because the fields were reduced by the war but it shouldn't be, the number of skaters (minus the three non european in 1947 and four in 1948) was around the same as before they stopped internationals competitions in 1939.
    Then after 1947 and 1948 they may had thought it should be skaters from Europe on the top of the europeans.

    As for FCC, at first, only a few big names played the game in singles from north america (Stojko is the only one I remember in fact) and then the big federations used it as a ranking ISU points winning event. I don't know whether the first in ladies and men in USA & CAN just said no or if it was their federation's choice to send the skaters ranked 3-7 at their nationals. I always remember the ladies in USA (Hughes, Kwan, Cohen) being asked and turning down the oportunity but it's maybe a wrong memory. Dance as always been different because I guess it's a free gold for depending of the year, USA or CAN, and maybe they thought it would gain them power or credibility in the eyes of the judges to place higher at worlds. In pairs, it's not the big names didn't came it's just outside them, there was not a lot of competition to expect. All the majors powerhouses sent their skaters though (CHN, CAN, USA). This is not working for olympics skaters during olympic year. Too close to go there, only Asada 2010 who needed it for others reasons showed up.
  38. used2skate

    used2skate New Member

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    A World Champion is just that ...the best in the world for that season. It is something exclusive that should never be discounted no matter the circumstances.
  39. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Not the best in the world for that season, just the best in that particular competition. :cool:
  40. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    The Olympic Gold is certainly the most important prize in figure skating. Why?

    1) Because the Olympics are every elite athlete's dream. (Have you ever heard an elite figure skater say: "nah, the Olympics are no big deal..." ???)

    2) Because the Olys are the highest pressure event for any athlete.

    3) Because the Olys get 20 times more press and viewership than any World Championship event.

    4) Because Olympic Gold Medalists are privy to very high endorsement deals.

    There are many more reasons. Obviously, not all Olympic Gold Medalists are the best in their sport, but they delivered when it counted and, under that kind of pressure, that counts for a great deal.

    I never heard of any FS fans devaluing the OGM until Michelle Kwan failed to win one in two different Olympic tries. (No, I'm not bashing. But it's true.)
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