Valova & Vasiliev- underrated or not?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 23, 2011.

  1. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Or Kavaguti and Smirnov for that matter. However, Moskvina's choreography on them makes Alexander and Yuko looks like Popeye trying to swat a spider.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Are you trying to say there was no conveyor belt at the Moskovina Factory of Pairs Figure Skating? :shuffle: So much for all the language used in those old fluff pieces.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  3. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I'm so glad Elena & Anton paired up, at their very best they were magical. I'm also glad that the Petikhs were paired and had their own success in the sport. I do wonder though, how the pair of Petrova-Sikharulidze would have fared had they stayed together.
  4. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Placements - wise, Petrova and Sikharudlize seemed to be neck and neck with Berezhnaya & Shliakhkov for a while.

    However, as the third Russian pair in 1995 behind Shishkova/Naumov and Eltsova/Buskov, Maria and Anton may not have even made the World team from 1996 onwards with Kazakova and Dmitriev's immediate success on the international scene.
  5. zilam98

    zilam98 New Member

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    i do remember reading an article before where moskvina was quoted as saying she has wanted a pair similar to g/g. of course, i cant remember where to find it now, but it was more of an article praising the merits of g/g to a point where other coaches even wanted to shape their students in that fashion.
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I disagree about Petrova/Tikhonov, at least from 2002 on, when I saw them compete live regularly. Their lines and way of skating did not match very well, and he had the worst stamina: by the last 2/3 of their programs, he was usually winded, and while she had wonderful lift positions, their lifts, especially the last ones, would end at almost a complete standstill. Watching them in warmup and comparing their side-by-side skating to Totmianina/Marinin was a huge let down. I found P/T hugely disappointing when I saw them live.

    T/M learned to move in a similar way, as V/V did before them.

    They never married, as far as I know. At least for part of their relationship, he was married to the wife after Valova. AFAIK the relationship lasted while they were working together, but after Totmianina left for Russia to do a lot of post-Olympic shows, and he took on other pairs, it took its natural course. I think she was briefly linked to Plushenko after the Olympics, but I don't know the exact timing.

    Vasiliev was quoted in the book "The Second Mark":

    The reason Vasiliev could take two teenage singles skaters and turn them into World and Olympic champions, skaters he said didn't know rockers from brackets because they had come up after compulsories were eliminated, was that he learned how the system taught him and made a pair, and he made T/M into a pair. (I think that's why he had so much trouble with Trankov, who was a lot more gifted, but was not interested in being manufactured.)

    That is such a great deduction!

    While I respected Rodnina, I never liked either pair she was in. I found her mechanical, and both hims almost non-existent. Pestova/Leonovich were my favorites after the Protopopovs. Gordeeva/Grinkov were terrific skaters, but I was crushed when P/L no longer competed.
  7. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Word to everything you said. B&S's speed and flow over the ice was incredible, even by the very high standards of the top pair teams in history. G&G and B&S had gorgeous skating skills. They were probably the two greatest pair teams in history in terms of their basic skating and mastery over the sweet spot of the blade.


    In addition to R&Z's speed and attack, they also had great unison and their consistency was very impressive. Has there ever been a pair team as consistent as R&Z? I don't just mean in terms of medals, but in terms of clean performances. Granted, I haven't seen every single performance of theirs, but I very rarely remember R&Z making even a minor error. When they did make an error, it was usually a slight flub, that probably would have gone almost unnoticed.

    I admire R&Z for their singular power on the ice, and for their (especially her) contribution to pairs skating. Their programs, on their own, never stood out to me as being particularly special or impressive. The exceptions are their final Kalinka exhibition, this 1977 LP (some unique moves in this one) and that one year at (Euros?) where the music stopped, but they continued to skate-in perfect unison.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  8. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    This thread makes me miss B/S. I've been rewatching their competitive programs and still say wow. Even 10+ years later, they do not disappoint. Just watching them do crossovers before elements is :swoon:
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  9. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    They were beautiful weren't they? :swoon: Even in their exhibitions, their speed, power and flow over the ice is apparent: http://youtu.be/5AB1icW8rOg.
  10. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    That routine makes me smile. The sbs choreography makes me :lol: but I love it!
  11. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    LOL true. :lol:
  12. TheresMaude

    TheresMaude New Member

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    Thanks for the link. Seeing this reminds me, did B/S have trouble with the triple twist lift?
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I love Barcelona. I watched them skate this in green costumes when I went to see COI. Another time they skated to Impossible Dream, which was a very different type of music/program. They were so versatile.

    This is turning into a B&S uber thread.:lol:

    ETA: So I started one.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  14. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    LOL, poor V&V, wuz robbed in their own thread! :lol: ;)

    I love to gush about B&S too. I wish I could have seen B&S skate live. :wuzrobbed: I still think Anton S. had the best spiral of probably any male pair skater-such great extension.
    I always wondered how a hypothetical match up between G&G and B&S would have played out. Both teams had excellen basic skating skills. I think B&S had better transitions and choreography and did sbs triple jumps, compared to G&G's double jumps, but G&G were more consistent overall.
  15. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Goordeeva and Grinkov had the beauty and rare "magical" quality associated with the Protopopovs; combined with excellent skills.
    B and S, much as I admired them, were hampered somewhat by Elena's occasionally inconsistent jumps.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    G&G were much more of a judges favorite than B&S ever were so probably G&G would have dominated the rivalry as far as competitive results, just like they did with M&D who sometimes skated as well or better (1990 Worlds, 1994 Olympics) but were never rewarded for it either. The judges would have never had G&G losing a string of competitions in a row to Sale & Pelletier for instance, not in a million years. Ignoring the often ridiculous judging, it would be interesting to see how the two pairs would compare on the ice skating in the same era however.
  17. amynicole912

    amynicole912 New Member

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    after watching the 86 and 87 worlds again i do agree with most of you that v/v were underrated, but pioneers often are. would micshkutonk & dmietreiv have had their sucsesses without a team like v/v introducing a more modern pairs style? g/g were sometimes like computer animation recreation of the rulebook they were so perfect, and as much as i love them, their artistic marks should have suffered in the beginning of their senior career for their somewhat shallow programs.

    a side question for maybe a hardcore fan lol. valova & vasiliev's LP from 1986 Worlds, what music is it? Toller Cranston says in the canadian broad cast its Shirelle (sp) performed by the Bolshoi... i cant find it anywhere probably because i dont know how to spell it. can anyone help?
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's spelled "Shurale" in English. There are clips of the Marrinsky performing bit on YouTube.
  19. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Good point about V&V setting the stage for M&D (and later B&S as well). While Moskvina had some degree of success before V&V (her students, Vorobieva & Lisovsky won the 1981 W.C., Vorobieva & her first partner Alexandr Vlassov won a few Euro/World medals as well), V&V were her first truly breakthrough pair team, and choreographically helped set the stage for M&D to take it to another level just a few years later.
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Good points. It makes me sad that Moskvina hit it out of the park with her music selections for M&D and B&S, but V&V always got such strange combinations. I liked the version of Fur Elise they used in 84 (have never heard any other skaters use it), but putting it with pop music didn't work, and The Final Countdown and Snowstorm in 1988 were each individually good portions of programs, but not together! When they skate a program like Shurale, then you really get to see how artistic they were. I think a lot of people remember them for having weird 80s music and costumes, compared to the sleek elegant look of G&G, but don't remember how interesting V&V's choreo was.
    This is a great question. The music is Shurale by Yarrulin. This website lists all their music: http://web.archive.org/web/20100217052144/http://www.valova-vasiliev.com/EnglPrograms.htm (it's no longer available, so you have to view it through the "wayback machine" website). I would like to see the "Demon" program from 1980!

    Here is a description of Shurale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şüräle According to legends, Şüräle lives in forests. He has long fingers, a horn on its forehead, and a woolly body. He lures victims to a thicket and tickles them to death. :inavoid:

    Also of interest to this thread is the page which lists their achievements and talks about their style. One thing that I've always wondered about is V&V being called the first Soviet pair to turn "pro." That's not the first time I've heard that. Rodnina didn't afaik but the Protopopovs skated in many professional shows before V&V. Is the difference that the Protopopovs defected, while V&V were the first ones who actually had permission from the Soviet Union?

    Ohh, and I just noticed the video page still works!
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  21. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I love that site! :swoon: It's a wonderful tribute to V&V's partnership and I'm glad it's still available through the internet archive. So happy to finally see the full version of Shurale as well. I saw a clip on youtube, and was immediately intrigued. Fantastic program. I could also see the SelMaks doing a great job with that music/program concept as well. There's also this great page on V&V's contributions to pairs skating: http://web.archive.org/web/20100217052151/http://www.valova-vasiliev.com/EnglStyle.htm. Looking at the programs page, the scarf number (professional routine 1996-1997) sounds voidy as well.
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link to Shurale! I really enjoyed that performance, despite two mistakes. It was a more interesting and mature performance than G&G's clean one (they were still just kids then).

    About Moskvina not selecting good music for V&V, I think Tamara too was learning at that point, by trial and error. Even M&D's 1989 worlds LP music was not at all suitable for them. The following year she hit the jackpot with Liebestraum for M&D, and produced many masterpieces for her skaters. Bechke & Petrov also benefitted from that, at the 92 Olympics, because the Nutcracker was perfect music for them. By the time she got B&S, she had mastered it all. Sadly, after B&S she just could not get a pair that could skate at that high level. She tried with Julia & Sergei, but although Julia was very talented she did not have the mental makeup of a champion. Kawaguti Smirnov are OK, and even good at times, but B&S music is not going to work for them. I think she finally found the right music for them, with Claire de Lune, but K&S have their limitations. They can be good but not great.

    To get back on topic, IMO V&V may have dealt with a lot of 'new' things of their time, including their coach.
  23. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Another point about V&V's music, weren't disjointed music selections and heavy reliance on synthetic music (I'm thinking of R&Z's discotheque version of "Flight of the Bumble Bees" here) more the rule than the exception in the 1980s?
  24. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    When you watch the other skating disciplines of that era you find many athletes skating programs with similar kinds of music cuts, music that doesn't seem to fit together, too sudden changes in style or rythm sometimes, too many selections, so you're right.
  25. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You guys are right, but G&G seem to have been mostly immune to the 80s thing. Their costumes were simple and elegant and their music choices were not bizarre. I wonder if this helped form an impression of them being fresh and artistic.
  26. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    On the flip side, I would have loved to have seen M&D skate to Shurale, they would have done such a fabulous job with that music! (By the same token, after seeing Selezneva & Makarov's "Night on Bald Mountain", I would have loved to have seen M&D skate to that piece as well).

    Likewise, I think the music for the 1987 LP would have fit B&S. I could see B&S skate to V&V's Strauss medley (they did skate to Radetzky's March in 1999-2000)
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    B&S also skated to You Million waltz (or something close to it) as their 1997 SP.
  28. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    I'm a big fan of V&V. Oleg especially. One of my favorite (and earliest . . . #3) podcasts at http://www.manleywoman.com was with Oleg.
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  29. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    I really enjoyed that podcast as well. :)