US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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  1. madm

    madm Active Member

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    What you train is what you get. Few of the U.S. pair teams do singles training in addition to pair training. When my daughter trained pairs in Colorado Springs, she was one of the only skaters who did a 45-min singles session and lesson with a singles coach every day. Most of the pair skaters did pair sessions only, focusing on pair elements and programs. In fact, very few of the pair skaters there had passed a senior singles freeskate test, partly because they don't skate singles anymore and partly because they don't see any value in doing so.

    If a skater does not begin skating pairs with a mastery of all double jumps and preferably a few triples, it is unlikely that the skater will develop them while doing pair skating. I'm not sure how skaters in other countries develop their triples, but they must be doing singles training in addition to their pair training.
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    A pair coach has done this, in fact: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120109&content_id=26295476&vkey=ice_news

    Caydee Denney/John Coughlin debuted their new programs in exhibition at the Colorado Championships in early August - no other details besides the fact that they scored 172.16 total.
  3. pair mom

    pair mom New Member

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    At pair centres in Canada pair teams indeed are required to do singles ice as well as their pair session work. My son successfully tested his Sr. Competitive singles while working and competing as a Jr. Pair. His heart was definitely as a pair guy but he competed a couple of smaller events as a Sr. Man. And for the record, he also has his Gold Dances and was able to supplement his training expenses by partnering dance tests! :) Every little bit helps! :)
  4. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, good for them. I really hope they are working on their line and extensions. PCS is their Achilles heel (biggest gap in pts.) when competing against the top teams. It would be nice to see them bump up a level or so on non-jump elements, too, although that wouldn't necessarily add up to a treasure trove of points. This may come with time as they get more and more used to one another on the ice
  5. oldskoolsk8tr

    oldskoolsk8tr New Member

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    Part of the problem is just nerves with all other huge pair elements not just singles skating.

    Another issue especially with boys in pairs is when they start and are Novice the girl they skate with has a consistent double lutz some boys can do triple lutz and have competed singles with triples but are held back in jumping for clean programs at low levels and that is what pairs usually do sometimes for years. The girls can also train singles session at a young age although this rarely gives a consistent triple even with all the extra money spent which is another issue. Gaining a mastery over strong pair elements is huge! and takes tons of training time and focus to be sure but when I see a team that can jump consistently and can't hold the girl and I am holding my breath when they lift, throw, or twist I hate that. All things take time and balance...more senior competitions with higher level jumps and not forced to to doubles in lower novice and junior competition we will see more consistency it is very very simple.

    Most of the older boys in pairs (senior) almost all of them...are not supported by their parents, work, and go to school, they do not have a country that pays for everything including living arrangements, extra lessons, and all expenses. I have seen this money and extra tons of single sessions not help some younger pair girls gain consistent triple throws, and consistent high level jumps. So it is about time and years being able to compete them not just train them.

    Pairs have a harder time mainly not in training I have seen most of the teams land all jumps in training it is mostly mental and experience in senior from what I can see. They can also be affected by their partners/self nerves...this all usually calms down after about year three (hence the teams staying together issue) OR...pairs that have each been in senior pairs for at least 5 years even with other partners have more consistent higher level jumps because they do them in competition over and over...the teams with trouble are teams moving up to senior that in junior and novice only had to do double flip, or up to double axel.

    Pairs is very very taxing on the body for the girls and guys. Training a single session more than once a day can have an effect there needs to be a balance. Most teams and coaches especially the successful ones are not stupid. They train jumps the same way they train a consistent triple twist. if you are totally supported financially and your parents pay for everything...and you don't go to school college, or work this probably helps this no doubt but that is unrealistic for someone over 20 years old in real life.

    So I prefer to see pairs continue to work on singles as they do in their program training all the elements... all dedicate time to it but as they stay in senior over 5 years we will see more consistency barring nerves and combining high pair elements, throw triples, triple or quad twists, and alike do find a hard balance with jumps and spins...for pairs I prefer to see safe and strong pair elements...as pairs do triples in their program for everyday training it becomes more consistent...! As they don't have to go back and do doubles cause the girl or partner cannot do a consistent or clean jump no matter how many singles sessions are skated...things will improve.

    This does have an effect.

    More competition in senior and gaining mastery over nerves and balance of program it will get better. Although that said let's remember it is ice and a pair blowing a jump on their own (such as Rockne and MB did their first nationals happens especially with new partnerships in senior) and not dropping a lift...well we all know ice is slippery it happens...the jumps or spins usually go when it is just them....

    I believe a team feels the nerves mostly then...it takes time like I said years doing the higher level elements in program to gain mastery over self...when they are responsible for holding a lift or a pair element they are dependent on each other and I find it positive those are usually strong by senior....I find a huge frustration when a team goes out and lands all their single elements and cannot do a pair element to save their lives..plus my heart can't take it!! So listen in a perfect world we'd have everything more appropriately the pairs skater who dedicates hours and hours would have everything but it takes time, focus, and time..

    Although I am sure there are many especially higher level pair guys/gals who are working and going to school that would love to live with free financial worries and so would their families who homes are mortgaged and other siblings that hugely sacrifice too...not do that so anyone complaining should instead be finding a pair guy or girl to financial help support that don't have incredibly rich parents...so stop complaining and help...the time issue and development in senior pairs for at least 5 years cannot be speeded up and mistakes happen and it is part of the learning process we can't take that away but the financial part even one extra single session a week plus lesson is about 50 dollars a week x 4 is 200 a month so find a team you like and offer to pay for that one single session...it would help! OR SUPPORT THE MEMORIAL FUND!

    It is fine to discuss it but please do not take away from the skaters out there finding a balance at 21 and up between life in the real world and trying to go after their dreams....AND

    The coaches know what they are doing they do not want a pair who is exhausted form singles training to drop a level 4/5 lift and injury has to be considered so there is balance there...we may think catching a clean triple twist is easy and should not be a big deal but put that in senior long with three high level lifts and all huge pair elements...and then when it is just you and a jump or spin that is the first to go I believe cause everything catches up..so balance training more time more time more time...it comes together...other countries have the same issues except the ones in senior for like 10 years so....

    DO not forget or dismiss...that they are training singles on their 4 pair sessions daily....6 days a week...where they work with spin, jump, and choreography coaches as well as their pair coach(s).with their partner which is what they should do... but like I said more time doing triples in program with a partner that is doing the same to gain consistency and combining those with very very strong pair elements and teams staying together will all help and also I am sure they would appreciate any donations to help so check that out and or support the memorial fund! WHEW...
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    The Cranberry Open was this weekend, I think? Any one of note skate?
  7. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I know that Shaughnessy/Morgan skated. Not sure on what their points were, but they didn't have any competitors.
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Castelli/Shnapir and Donlan/Speroff both competed. I heard that Castelli/Shnapir skated well in both programs (~56 in SP, 100+ in FS) but that's all I know at the moment.

    Taylor Toth tweeted that Kiri Baga is taking her Senior Pair test today.

    ETA: Kiri tweeted that she passed.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  9. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^Thanks, Sylvia (and Johndockley92). It's heartening that C/S skated well. Marks like that imply that they were relatively clean (?). but, more interested to hear if there was any improvement for D/S from Indy Challenge
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Sylvia

    I'm a little worried about Y/R. They seem to be a bit behind; a new pair deciding to redo their program. but, maybe they are keeping expectations low this season?

    D/S - The focus on FW is OK, but ... I'd be a little happier if she said something to the effect of 'I'm focusing on my jumps and I'm much more consistent'

    Now D/C -
    The first step is admitting you have a problem :shuffle:
  12. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I'm worried Y/R are going to be a mess at their Grand Prix events...
  13. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    ^^^ gkelly you should cross-post in the Lake Placid JGP thread in Kiss and Cry. :)

    Quote from Joshua Reagan in the Champs Camp article:
    "Johnny [Johns], Marina [Zoueva] and David [Kirby] started us slow," Reagan said. "For [the first] month or month and a half, it was really just getting in shape. Obviously, we want to be successful this year, but next year is when we want to have our biggest splash, even if it means not doing as much right now [in order to be] better later on."

    ETA that Vise/Baldwin (who have been added as the 3rd US pair for the Salt Lake Senior B in mid-September) skated their SP in exhibition at the Golden West club competition earlier today. I heard they scored 49.28, got Level 4 on their lift, sbs spin, and footwork, and landed sbs 3T, with hands down on the throw 3Lz. See the TV Alerts forum (or the Golden West competition thread in Kiss and Cry) for a live video stream link for Saturday's FS.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  15. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Ha- imagine how USFSA feels with Y/R and D/L having two each...pass the tums...:slinkaway:
  16. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    With the departure of M/B and the Summer events now finished, I see the new partnerships making a big statement this season...I also don't feel team Boston is a lock for Sochi or 2013 Worlds unless they actually earn it....politiks aside
  17. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    team Boston?
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Perhaps carriemarie is referring to the fact that Boston is where two of the top U.S. pairs teams train: Castelli/Schnapir and Donlan/Speroff.
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear that V/B had a better outing at Golden West w/ their SP.

    I'm really hoping for an assignment for S/K.
  20. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Exactly. Sorry if that was unclear. They are on paper the top US teams under D/C. I am just not convinced they will automatically be in the top 2 or in Sochi. Pairs field is wide open and some of the new pairings look promising like S/K and second year team Z/B.
  21. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Phil Hersh just tweeted that Rockne and Amanda are not pairing up. Rockne will sit out the season
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If the GP selection rules don't change, he and new partner will still be in the running for an initial GP selection (in addition to a possible host assignment) under the split couple rule and a second as a replacement couple, based on his Worlds placement with Marley. If they go back to two years ago's rules, he can get one as a TBA for Skate America and one by being at the top of the split couples list.

    If he finds someone this season, they can concentrate on the basics and becoming a team. It didn't hurt Belbin/Agosto when they did this.
  23. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I just wasn't sure if you were referring to one team or another. I do think the field is wide open since each top team has it's main area of weakness. If D/S could get their jumps, if C/S could put it all together in comp or if D/C could majorly improve in PCS...
  24. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Any news on whether Dee Dee Leng passed her Sr. Pairs test?
  25. Ageless

    Ageless Member

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    Yes, she did on 8/11
  26. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I see the 'pecking order' in US pairs as follows -

    D/C - Love or hate them, they are the undisputed frontrunners for title of best US pair. Per the Icenetwork article Sylvia posted above, John stated they are aware of their PCS shortcomings and they are taking modern dance lessons, so we might see something fresh and new from them this season.

    C/S - They've been doing fairly well and I'd slot them in 2d right now. It sounded like they did really well at both Indy and Cranberry Open in the LP (110 pts. or so at Cranberry). The Icenetwork article makes it sound like they are attacking the season from a different angle.

    D/S - I luv them. They have the most talent. But, they really need to hit the SBS jumps. It will be interesting to see how they do against C/S this season. They could be ranked ahead of them or behind them (depends on whether C/S get some momentum). Also, between D/S and C/S, it may come down to which pair is most consistent on the SBS jumps since they both ironically have issues with those elements!

    D/L - For a new pair, they are making big strides in a short amount of time. They got the 3twist quickly and Mark has found a partner that can land SBS jumps. Lindsay isn't a slouch on the other elements, either. I can see them on the podium at Nats.

    Z/B and S/K - Z/B might have an outside shot at the podium or even the team (depends on how good or bad C/S or D/S can be), but I have a feeling they might get held back for any of the above pairs (maybe they are considered even with D/L). They seem really hungry and hit the big elements. I hope S/K get a shot at an international competition. They deserve it. She has diva potential and he shows her off properly. The fact that they could keep up w/ MT/M in the SP, nailing some big elements at Detroit in July after only a couple of months together speaks volumes about their potential, but the USFSA really needs to take notice of that first!

    V/B - They seemed to improve in the SP at Golden West after the crap showing at Indy. IDK. The USFSA might consider them out-to-pasture already.

    Y/R - I would love to love them, but they've admitted that they're not expecting much this year and it sounds like in interviews that they need more time together. Maybe we will all be pleasantly surprised and they will outperform expectations. Per the same Icenetwork article, it sounds like the throw jumps are good to go.

    B/T - seem to be squeaking through the elements in their summer competition despite being so new as a pair, and that was surprising to me. They also seem to have a good sense of style. But need more time together.

    L/L - See above.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  27. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Who are L/L?
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Leng / LeDuc
  29. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, I was racking my brain but couldn't come up with that. :lol:
  30. Rochelle

    Rochelle New Member

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    Any thoughts on where Kayne/O'Shea, Durate/Grafton, and Denney/Frazier fit in? From what I've heard, all three are expected to enter Senior level for this US Figure Skating qualifying season. :)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  31. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I forgot about them :eek:, but I honestly see them all at the back end this season. Perhaps below Y/R.

    I consider D/F to be the most promising of the 3 and based on past results, D/F might end up around Z/B - just off the podium and above Y/R.

    What division are Pfund / Reiss competing in at Nats? Jr. or Sr. ?
  32. Rochelle

    Rochelle New Member

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  33. Pulaski73

    Pulaski73 New Member

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    Aren't Brittany Simpson and Mathew Blackmer skating senior domestically and junior internationally like Denney/Frasier?

    Also which member of Liu/Perini aren't age eligible?
  34. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Unless Simpson/Blackmer's plans have changed recently, they are skating junior both internationally and nationally this season.

    Devin was 19 in April; Chelsea doesn't turn 13 until December.

    Thanks for posting the Pairs Scoretracker link, Rochelle :) - I just updated it today with scores from Golden West and Onyx Challenge.
  35. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Does anybody know the sectional breakdown for the novice-senior pairs??

    Thanks :))
  36. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Current International Scores of US Pairs 2012-2013
    Simpson/Blackmer 133
    Aaron/Settlage 130
    Denney/Frazier 127
    Pfund/Reiss 124
    Calalang/Sidhu 123
    De la mora/Wilson 113
    Oltmanns/Santillan 102
    -------
    Will update tomorrow with scores of Vise/Baldwin, Davis/Ladwig, Zhang/Bartholomay
  37. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I wonder if Simpson/Blackmer would have medaled at JGP Lake Placid with those programs. Even though their score was lower, I enjoyed Aaron/Settlage's programs much more.


    Also, assuming Calalang/Sidhu and Simpson/Blackmer get a 2nd JGP, who do you think gets the final spot available?? De La Mora/Wilson, Oltmanns/Santillian, Goldberg/Dolk, or Belt/Johnson ?
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    FWIW, Christina Zaitsev/Ernie Utah Stevens have the highest summer competition total score (113 at Indy Challenge) of the age-eligible pairs yet to be assigned to a JGP.

    I've updated my U.S. Pairs Scoretracker with scores from recent club competitions, the first 2 JGPs, as well as the Senior B and Junior/Novice Challenge Skate in Salt Lake City this past weekend: http://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/2012-2013-pairs-scores/
    rfisher and (deleted member) like this.
  39. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Interesting to see C/S doing so well in the pre-season. I hope they overcome the inconsistency on the SBS jumps because they are dynamic and their explosiveness on the big elements, as well as the lifts, could take them far. Also didn't realize that S/K's score at Skate Detroit is comfortably the 3rd highest score among all US pairs so far. I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face: USFSA, take note!
  40. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    They have received Nice Senior B
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