US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Yes, and Denney/Raad placed 7th in Junior the next year at 2010 Nationals and then 6th in Junior at 2011 Nationals after they had switched to Zimmerman.

    After transitioning from roller to ice in Florida, Haven Denney/Brandon Frazier won the 2006 South Atlantic Regional Juvenile Pairs title in Oct. 2005 and placed 10th at Jr. Nationals in Dec. 2005 when they were 10 and 13, respectively. I didn't find their names in any pair results the following season, and they both moved to Colorado to skate in the 2007-08 season.
  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    BTW, regarding scores by US pairs at this point. Don't Z/B and K/O now have higher international total scores than S/K by virtue of their performances at 4CC's and Challenge Cup?
  3. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Here's how US Pairs that competed in Seniors stand on the Season's Best List. However, I have no clue who K/O are?????

    9 179.21 Caydee DENNEY / John COUGHLIN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012
    11 174.51 Marissa CASTELLI / Simon SHNAPIR USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    14 167.30 Felicia ZHANG / Nathan BARTHOLOMAY USA ISU 4CCs 2013 10.02.2013
    15 163.10 Alexa SCIMECA / Chris KNIERIM USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    21 155.83 Haven DENNEY / Brandon FRAZIER USA World Junior Champ 2013 28.02.2013
    29 143.70 Lindsay DAVIS / Mark LADWIG USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    30 143.15 Tiffany VISE / Don BALDWIN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    K/O = Tarah Kayne and Danny O'Shea, the silver medalists in their international debut at Challenge Cup last month. :)

    Here are all the pairs' Senior B international scores this season:
    178.90 Caydee Denney/John Coughlin (121.61 FS) Nebelhorn Trophy, 2nd
    174.86 Marissa Castelli/Simon Shnapir (114.42) Ice Challenge (AUT), 1st
    167.82 Tarah Kayne/Daniel O’Shea (113.71) Challenge Cup (NED), 2nd
    156.00 Alexa Scimeca/Chris Knierim (96.99) Cup of Nice (FRA), 1st
    148.56 DeeDee Leng/Timothy LeDuc (96.77) Challenge Cup (NED), 5th
    146.50 Kiri Baga/Taylor Toth (102.75) Challenge Cup (NED), 6th
    145.35 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (102.14) Nebelhorn Trophy, 4th
    143.34 Tiffany Vise/Don Baldwin (102.35) Salt Lake Senior B, 3rd
    143.32 Felicia Zhang/Nathan Bartholomay (95.88) Salt Lake Senior B, 4th
    135.43 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (94.07) Ice Challenge (AUT), 2nd
    121.31 Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig (75.73) Salt Lake Senior B, 5th
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  5. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    Certainly hope S/K can bring it at worlds...surprising seeing them 4th in both Season's best and Senior B competition scores. This team has certainly been given some major responsibility very early in their career.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Sylvia and Doris. Here are the top marks to include all -

    DENNEY / COUGHLIN (179.21)
    CASTELLI / SHNAPIR (174.86)
    KAYNE / O'SHEA (167.82)
    ZHANG / BARTHOLOMAY (167.30)
    SCIMECA / KNIERIM (163.10)
    DENNEY / FRAZIER (155.83)
    LENG / LEDUC (148.56)
    BAGA / TOTH (146.50)
    DONLAN / SPEROFF (145.35)
    VISE / BALDWIN (143.34)

    Davis / Brubaker will be in the mix next season. The US seems to have a slowly growing pool of talent in pairs and the marks are an improvement over the last many seasons. They are not world-beaters yet, but a growing pool means at least a couple of pairs may blossom not just next season, but on the Road to Pyeongchang (sp?) in 2018.

    Amazed at how far down Donlan / Speroff have dropped. :(

    jdonovan, I think that the injury to Alexa at 4CC probably slowed their momentum. Perhaps their PB would be higher had they competed at 4CC's. As long as she's fully recovered (they got clearance to be back on the ice soon after 4CC's), they should be able to put out a bigger score.
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Donlan/Speroff's best competition of the season, not just score-wise, was at Nationals (obviously for Davis/Ladwig as well).

    For completeness' sake :), here were the placements and scores of the 10 U.S. Senior pairs at Nationals:
    180.61 Marissa Castelli, SC Of Boston / Simon Shnapir, SC Of Boston 62.27 (1) 118.34 (3)
    172.75 Alexa Scimeca, DuPage FSC / Christopher Knierim, Broadmoor SC 52.79 (3) 119.96 (1)
    172.02 Felicia Zhang, SC of New York / Nathan Bartholomay, University of Delaware FSC 53.19 (2) 118.83 (2)
    165.08 Lindsay Davis, All Year FSC / Mark Ladwig, Red River Valley FSC 51.65 (5) 113.43 (4)
    162.27 Haven Denney, Broadmoor SC / Brandon Frazier, All Year FSC 52.48 (4) 109.79 (6)
    159.67 Gretchen Donlan, SC Of Boston / Andrew Speroff, SC Of Boston 49.81 (7) 109.86 (5)
    148.32 Tarah Kayne, Southwest Florida FSC / Daniel O'Shea, Skokie Valley SC 47.74 (9) 100.58 (7)
    148.08 Kiri Baga, FSC of Bloomington / Taylor Toth, DuPage FSC 48.13 (8) 99.95 (8)
    143.71 DeeDee Leng, DuPage FSC / Timothy LeDuc, Eastern Iowa FSC 50.84 (6) 92.87 (10)
    143.35 Tiffany Vise, Coyotes SC of Arizona / Don Baldwin, Los Angeles FSC 44.41 (10) 98.94 (9)
  8. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I left out Davis / Ladwig from my list because they are finished as a pair
  9. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    Agreed...hope she is recovered!!
  10. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    Gotta be honest though... Senior Pairs at Nats was scored very skewed towards those who had the min. Tech score for Worlds. The audience never lies...2 standing ovations were given: Z/B and D/L. I cannot help but wonder if Z/B had the tech score if they would be going to their first World's...
  11. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    For better or for worse, the minimum scores are based only on TES.

    Audience reaction tends to be based more on the areas that are rewarded in PCS.

    Which can lead to paradoxes of a skater/team not meeting the minimum scores but placing higher overall than a skater/team who did meet them. Although that's not what happened in this particular case.
  12. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    IMO, Z/B had a better skate at Nationals than S/K and should have been second overall. Regardless, I think both teams have similar scoring/placement potential at Worlds if they skate relatively well. My only concern would be her health. I am actually more concerned about C/S as their only really great performance in the last two comps was the SP at Nationals despite their placements. A top ten finish for either team is going to take two really great programs at Worlds. There is too much depth in the international field for any errors.
    Kayne/O'shea's performance at their Senior B certainly gives them momentum for next season. I really like this team and think they will be a force to be reckoned with in a few years if they stay together. Also, Leng/Leduc perform some lovely elements (especially their beautiful sbs triple toes) and have great potential. Not to mention we have the current World Junior Champions and the other Juniors moving up to Senior. Unfortunately, I fear D/S need to gain some consistency or they are going to be buried by new talent.
    I will withhold my judgement on Davis/Brubaker until I see what they put out this year. They are certainly an interesting pairing and will no doubt be in the medal hunt. I wonder if Y/R will skate together this season. I think that second Olympic spot (assuming we keep two spots which, barring disaster, is likely) is up for grabs between about four teams. Should be interesting....
  13. micronrd

    micronrd New Member

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    :lol:
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  14. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    I'm relieved that there are actual judges for competitions and we don't just let the audience (only partly figure skating educated) vote for their favorites as if this were a made-for-TV contest like American Idol. :lol: I think it's also safe to assume that plenty of people in the audience aren't really paying attention to the same degree as a judge would, whether they know a lot about skating or not.

    I know a couple of you are from a certain area of Florida or seem to have allegiances and will talk up certain skaters regularly (or maybe you're unbiased despite where you're from, and these teams are truly the ones you prefer). But Scimeca/Knierim also had a strong performance at Nationals. Both S/K and Z/B had areas of their skating that they did better than the other team. And with those 2 teams finishing that close to each other (separated by .73), it indicates the result pretty much could have gone either way, which I think is accurate based on how they skated. As a result, I have a very hard time considering Z/B to have been robbed. I would feel differently if S/K were falling, really messing up the elements, or were really lagging behind Z/B in some aspect of skating, but they weren't. So regardless of whether or not the judges entered the competition with the idea that the World team should be C/S and S/K because they were the only ones with the min scores (if that's the case, it's just another reason why we need new selection procedures for Worlds, but that's a whole different story), to me the actual result seemed completely fine based on the quality of skating presented.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  15. micronrd

    micronrd New Member

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    :swoon:
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  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    From their pre-Worlds media teleconference today as tweeted by USFS:
  17. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    :D
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  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    :respec:
  19. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    You obviously missed the senior pair short at Nationals. S/K fell on solo triple salchows and fell out of the throw flip and her skating was stumbly in general.

    I'm not any more biased towards a skater or team than anyone else on this fan page, however I am a fan of certain skaters and fair judging. The shorts at Nationals imo were not scored correctly.

    Please do nor assume where I am from nor put words in my mouth. I never said S/K were robbed. I have made the case that Z/B skating a clean short was very closely scored to flawed S/K program. Its my opinion and I'm free to express it.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  20. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    You meant Z/B right? :) I definitely didn't mean to put words in your mouth... Earlier in the thread you said that many people felt Z/B would have been 2nd at Nationals if they had had the min. score. And then again on this page you wondered if Z/B would have finished higher if they had had the min. score. I interpreted that as you thinking Z/B were robbed, and I used that word because to me it was the easiest way to summarize your overall viewpoint-- that the judges may have manipulated the results based on who had the min. score. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying.

    I actually had forgotten about S/K's fall in the SP. I was focused mostly on the LP since I was replying to the post about standing ovations. I don't remember the SP being disastrous, but maybe it was, can't remember. Z/B were ahead after the SP, and would have been ahead by more had S/K not outscored them on 5 of the 7 elements in that program and had higher levels on a couple elements... So at least it wasn't some big unwarranted PCS boost from the judges to keep it closer.
  21. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    The comments Simon made about having two clean skates does that mean Throw triple sal instead of quad? and throw double axle instead of triple? They said if they made World's they would go for it...bummer if they don't...not sure they are in a position to guarantee landings because they are easy throws...also what a point loss...man ..anything on the promise they made to up the anti and going for it??:( Was just excited for that...missed it at Nats too....
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  22. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    They were both good but man that S/K triple twist holds a ton of points it is the best in the country.....step out on flip oh ya and triple sal issues but other elements good...and Z/B were excellent but lacking on some elements too..some things were lack luster even though completed clean...just because someone is clean doesn't mean they should win. Or Alex J would have won mens! He was amazing and I thought the best of the men... A lot more goes into it then we may think...points for this and that...etc...there is something cool about S/K their look, line, etc.and they do well internationally so far I think due to their look as well as certain elements like the twist is comparable to other countries.and that HUGE throws..I think S/K looking at scores got top score in lifts, twist, spins ...they are solid but lacking some pointing toes on lifts...and choreography also variation but that takes time..can't wait to see what happens next year I hope they do well at World's and continue to develop...

    ..I like Z/B's spunk and their fire...but they strike me as a totally different pair than S/K...lifts solid and good but he is short and so it looks different...like the action they have the spark and attack...footwork, spins, are all good...twist ehh..but that may be due to size? also throws are good...worried about choreography and him wearing something other than a short sleeve shirt to show muscles...maybe work on line and connection...more of a classic line???

    so all have something to offer.....like comparing apples to oranges I think..it will be interesting to see S/K internationally with a new long program...and next year will be crazy as we finally have a deeper field in pairs!
    !!! NOTE: apparently S/K won the performance award from PSA voted on at Nationals...https://twitter.com/ProfSk8rsAssoc

    Hope C/S do their throw quad! and triple axle and not just doing the easy throws to be clean only... not sure that philosophy will work next year..wishing them luck at World's Will be exciting to watch the Internationals this year...!!
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    S/K v. Z/B - I agree with the final standings at Nationals: S/K's elements are 'bigger' and more explosive than Z/B's elements, yet they maintain a calmness in their skating. But, I think that Z/B have a certain panache and are better at expression than S/K, and overall they probably generate more excitement when they skate. I do think some elements that Z/B are better on are the spins, choreographed sequence, and footwork. But again, S/K have it over them on the big stuff - 3twist , both throw jumps, SBS 3sals (although Z/B edge them on 1 jumping pass by doing a 2x-2x seq. vs. 2x-2t seq.), and all the lifts.

    C/S - I really would like to see them step up their game. They've come a long way in consistency. But, it would be nice to see them try either a throw 3x or throw 4sal at Worlds, and upgrade their jumping passes to SBS 3toes and SBS 3sals. Pairs talent is sooo deep right now at the international level and I don't want to see them get buried. But, they and their coaches know what they are capable of, so we will see.

    K/O - This pair is a nice revelation. Going to Challenge Cup in Holland was a great payoff because it put them on the map internationally. They have the big moves and if they stay together and train hard, they will be podium factors in years to come on the national level. They just need time to let everything both technically and artistically gel. Their big challenge will be a smooth 3twist (right now, it's got the sack of potatoes quality)

    L/L - More than anyone else, this pair really catches my eye! They've got a 'look' on the ice that can't be manufactured (exact opposite of the pageant-like look we see from D/C). I think she just needs more time to fit into her role as a pairs lady figure skater. SBS jumps to die for. He looks like the diva in the pair! I do think he needs to develop more strength in the lifts, and the 3twist is a big problem right now.

    D/F - She is 17 I believe and I hope she doesn't grow much anymore because I think he is only 5-10. I like that she has her sister's cat-like landing qualities on the jumps: The way she handles the landing on the tilted throw 3sal makes her a rock star! Again, just another pair with some big tricks that needs to stick together and grow.

    D/S - IDK. I don't think she'll ever be consistent on even a 2x and with the boomlet of talent moving in to US pairs, they are really going to risk getting buried. But, maybe they need a wake-up call to shake-up how they are approaching training. Something isn't working ...

    D/B - Great potential, but we will see. If things go according to plan, they can definitely become a top team. It will depend on how Lindsay and Rockne interact on lifts, throws and especially the 3twist because I don't know why, but I get the impression that sometimes her male partners do a lot of the work on the interactive elements, but she is older and wiser, has good extension, stroking and her SBS elements are strong.

    Y/R - Totally forgot about them. I hope that they are holding it together despite all the setbacks. What has kept them out of competition? Nothing to judge them by except that Caitlin is a rock star who just needs to stay secure on her jump landings going forward, and Josh always needed to work on being a little less wooden. They've got a decent height differential I think 5-3 v. 6-0. We'll see......

    It will also be interesting to watch a consistent (albeit somewhat pageant-like) D/C hold off the best of the aforementioned. If the best of the aforementioned really bring it next year, D/C may find it tough to claim one of the 2 likely spots the US will have for Sochi. I wonder what D/C's plans are post-Sochi because John was wanting to retire back in 2011 ....
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Scimeca and Knierim talk about their personal relationship, her foot injury, and their goals for Worlds in the second section of the "Inside Edge" blog published today: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130306&content_id=42338990&vkey=ice_news
    Excerpt:
  25. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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  26. BittyBug

    BittyBug Quadless

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    By that reasoning Wesley Campbell should be on the World team.
  27. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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    OK OK I get it. Guess well see what happens at Worlds.
  28. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    I think we already saw what happened at Nationals.

    World's the goal especially with S/K is just what the article said...no expectation just go and skate, perform, and enjoy...they have been together less than a year...earned their place and are going to just skate...
    C/S however have more pressure...and I sure hope they up the anti with technical merit...they need to..if I see a USA team at world's doing just a throw triple sal and a throw d/axel I will think I am in 1986. SO let's go USA!!!
    World's will be great to watch but this year coming up will be the more interesting to see I think..deep field.
  29. jdonavan

    jdonavan New Member

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  30. figureit

    figureit New Member

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  31. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Re "The days of the salchow & loop are over," maybe, maybe not. These things change and shift depending on the table of base values. At one point, the throw flip was the same value as the throw loop. Now they are different, and have been for some time. However, it seems that teams learn the throw flip/lutz if anything, easier than the throw loop, which is why some teams don't do the throw loop, even though the throw salchow has a slightly lower base value. It's entirely possible they will go back to the same value some day. Not to mention that the throw 3A is grossly undervalued, and that may change some day.

    In the case of the teams doing SBS flips or lutzes, considering many guys lip and many girls flutz (and a few the reverse), I don't think these are ever going to be universally done, provided that the pairs tech panels do their jobs on edge calls. An edge call wipes out the advantage of the higher base value jump. Certainly, I don't see a whole raft of teams that you could put together who would do the 3F in one jump pass and the 3Lz in the other.

    Not to mention that a girl who can do both a flip and lutz (one in combination) clearnly is likely to be continuing on in singles.

    Yamaguchi & Galino in the early 1990's were doing side by side triple flips-it has never caught on generally in pairs.
  32. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    Also wanted to note G&G also did a quad twist but the judges never caught it and I think even Scott Hamilton called it a triple later to find out it was a quad. It held no extra value and was very hard on the girls body so they stopped doing it.
    Does any team do a quad and has any American ever done one? Would it hold a higher value than the triple?
    You are also right about things changing! I would hate to be a coach in pairs cause lifts, death spirals, levels etc constantly changing even in the same season...
  33. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Sui/Han have done quad twist in competition. It's execution was widely criticised on these boards- she basically fell onto him. But the judges didn't seem to care.

    Did Carman/Knierim ever do theirs in competition? I do know they interviewed saying they knew they wouldn't be able to do it once she grew because it relied so much on him being able to chunk her tiny body into the air.
  34. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    The quad twist (Lutz, flip or toe loop takeoff) has a base value of 6.6 (B) to 8.6 (level 4) - it's published in the current ISU Scale of Values document. The triple twist is worth 4.6 (B) to 6.2 (L4).

    ETA that Sui/Han's 4LzTw1 at 2012 Worlds had a base value of 7.1 points and they received -1 GOE. They rather controversially had received +1.86 GOE for the same element at 2012 Four Continents, which was debated here last year, as Skittl1231 mentioned.

    No, I only saw a practice clip of their 4twist years ago. It's the only 4twist I've ever seen attempted on video by a recent U.S. pair that I know of. It's been mentioned here before, but Brynn Carman, now 18, has since switched to ice dance and is training in Canton, Michigan and looking for a partner.

    ETA #2 - link to new article titled "Castelli, Shnapir's non-split decision proved wise" with quotes from them and their coach, Bobby Martin: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130307&content_id=42402624&vkey=ice_news
    BTW, we're nearing 1000 posts in this thread so it will be locked soon. Discussion of Castelli/Shnapir and Scimeca/Knierim at Worlds can continue in the 2013 Worlds forum in Kiss and Cry, and a U.S. Pairs news/updates 2013 thread eventually can be started for the upcoming season.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  35. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Peng/Zhang from China do a quad twist, and they do it very well. It's their best element. But despite it being a huge point getter, I can't see it ever really catching on like the men and their quads because size wise, it's rarely possible to make it work.

    And as for "I think the days of just having the throw sal and loop are over"... It really depends on the team. Some teams really struggle to increase the difficulty in their throws regardless of how many more points they know they can receive for them. T/T were a good example of that, and we are seeing something similar with C/S now. They are more comfortable with a throw 4S than a 3Lo or 3F, which is quite strange. Who knows if we'll ever see the throw 4S in competition (even though it looks pretty good in video).

    It definitely seems that more teams are trying to master a 3F/3Lz now before mastering a throw 3Lo (whereas in the past it was reversed), but some teams may end up being more comfortable with just the loop and sal.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  36. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    New IN article re C/S almost splitting last year:

    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130307&content_id=42402624&vkey=ice_news

    Unfortunately, no throw 3x or 4s at Worlds:

  37. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I also edited in quotes by their coach Bobby Martin from the Castelli/Shnapir article in my post (#994) above.

    Thanks for the reminder! I looked up Peng/Zhang's 2013 Four Continents FS protocol and their quad twist was called 4Tw2, 7.6 base value with +2.14 GOE = 9.74 points (the highest scoring element in their program). But they had mistakes in their sbs jumps and finished 5th overall and 6th in the FS, behind both U.S. pairs and all 3 Canadians, although P/Z did have the third highest TES.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  38. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Active Member

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  39. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Definitely, but what can you do? You have to do what you can do, especially if you main goal is "a solid competition". And they've been able to score relatively decently with the axel and sal.
  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Castelli/Shnapir's 2ATh has a base value of 4.00 and they added +1.9 GOE at 2013 4CC, while their 3STh in the second half with a BV of 4.95 received +1.7 GOE. Their ISU PB and SB FS score of 117.04 was set at 4CC, even though they lost points on their sbs jumps (3T with negative GOE and 1A+1T instead of 2A+2T).
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