US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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  1. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    There is always some risk, but I would imagine the situation is not overwhelmingly risky or they wouldn't bother this year- I think without specific medical information on John's exact injury and recovery prognosis, we as fans can't properly assess whether the "risk" of competing in March is unwise or worth it. I don't know if its safe to just assume his injury is exactly the same as Alissa's or other skaters in the past. You might be right though- we shall see!
  2. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Haven't we learned anything from Shabalin's carreer??
  3. Tesla

    Tesla Whippet Good

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    haribobo is right. We don't know the seriousness of his injury. If his doctors and physical therapists say he can be ready for Worlds', I say let them go. I trust they know what they are doing. It is quite possible that it was a minor tear and no where near as serious as Alissa's injury.
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes injuries are individual, and we don't know the specifics -- neither are we medical professionals. I'm sure USFS is anxious to have their two strongest pairs teams competing at Worlds. At this point, C/S have won bronze at NHK and are looking very strong, and D/C won three international medals this season (two bronze on the GP circuit). So, if John is indeed deemed healthy enough to go to Worlds and C/S win Nationals, these teams surely would make a strong pairs contingent for the U.S.

    Obviously, the questions will be is John fully healed and do D/C have enough time to train adequately to be at full strength at Worlds? It would be an unfortunate setback should John not be fully healed and ready to perform at full strength.

    Also, I would feel sorry for the pairs team that come in second at Nationals missing an opportunity to go to Worlds. But, I guess that's life and figure skating.
  5. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Active Member

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    In my opinion, D/C, after John is healed, should have a test skate watched by a judge or two, to verify that they are healthy. I keep remembering in the past when pairs (Meno & Sand) were given a bye when they weren't ready to compete.
  6. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Only John is going to know if he's healthy enough to skate not a judge. He knows if he goes back to soon he can do irreparable damage.
  7. madm

    madm Active Member

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    D/C are monitored often by Mitch Moyer of USFS in Colorado Springs. I'm sure he will be invited to watch them skate once John is back and believes he is performance-ready. USFS is only a couple of miles away from World Arena so it's easy to do.
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    IF D/C are provisionally selected for Worlds, they will most likely have to perform their programs for a USFS-approved monitoring panel to determine their competition readiness.
  9. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, ever since I read about the petition by D/C this morning I've had (-) thoughts. :( Not one positive at all. Just kept thinking about all those injured skaters that thought they could do it, but in the end could not. The will is there of course, but the body is not. Michelle thought she could do it in 2006, so did Rachael in 2011, not to mention Alissa in 2012, and the list goes on...

    But I don't blame the skater at all, every athlete worth his/her wherewithal must believe they can do it (that's what makes them so successful at what they do), no, rather I blame the USFS for allowing them to skate in the first place. Hopefully, the time, the USFS will put a stop to it before it even begins. But alas they never did so in the past so I don't expect much from them this time either, just another sad case of history repeating itself, never learning their lesson. *sigh*

    My $0.00 worth of advice would be to tell D/C to take the rest of the season off, heal 200% and properly, and count their blessings it didn't happen next season. They're still America's #1 Pair Team and rightfully so! :respec: They just need to stay the course, don't get ahead of themselves, and let nature do its job. :)

    As for Alexa & Chris, this is truly their lucky break/season, which if they continue doing what they're doing could lead to their first Worlds, all signs are pointing to it, so just sit back and enjoy the lucky ride. :cool:

    That said, ALL BETS ARE OFF FOR NEXT SEASON! :eek: With D/C back & healthy & raring to go, along with a rejuvenated Rockne Brubaker and new partner, as well as a rising C/S, and who knows who else (e.g. Caitlin & Josh), it will be a dogfight to make the Olympic Team! :hat1:
  10. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    I'm confused by your statement that U.S. Figure Skating "never put a stop" and "another sad case of history repeating itself, [U.S. Figure Skating] never learning their lesson." To the best of my recollection, over the past [number that is slightly less than John Nicks' age] of years, the only time that I can recall U.S. Figure Skating sanctioning a clearly injured athlete competing was Kwan in 2006. Flatt's injury was diagnosed but not revealed to U.S. Figure Skating prior to 2011 Worlds; Czisny had no pain or diagnosis prior to 2012 Worlds. You mention "and the list goes on," but I can't refute any additional examples because I can't think of any.

    Aside from that - I am uncertain what benefit Denney and Coughlin will gain from competing at 2013 Worlds, but the potential downsides are numerous. There is little possibility that the U.S. could qualify three pairs for Sochi (although the third team could conceivably be training mates of D/C) regardless of who competes in London and it's equally unlikely that the U.S. would qualify only a single pair. Placement at Worlds in a pre-Olympic year can have political implications internationally (not so muchly domestically unless a team wins or fails to make the short program cut): an 15th place finish at Worlds could be more damaging to D&C's Olympic placement than missing Worlds with an injury. And of course, there's the injury itself and ensuring that it's fully rehabbed. Of course, Coughlin and his medical team are the only ones who know the answer to that, but I do hope that Sappenfield and D/C are making this decision for the right reasons and that the long-term outcome is not the opposite of their rationale for trying to compete at Worlds.

    What Sylvia said - and it won't just be Moyer or a few judges from down the street.
  11. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    To be more specific, I'm talking about "monitoring", 5Ali3, specifically in the cases of Rachael & Alissa. Rach sustained her injury prior to the GPF that year, and Alissa as well IIRC. They were already injured, but it was low key, hush hush. Still, I'm sure the USFSA has ears & eyes everywhere and knew way more than the average skating fan and public. The backlash resulted in a fine for Rachael after all. As for Alissa, her team said they knew nothing prior, yet she skated atrociously at that B event prior to Worlds, as well as Worlds itself, then only later on during the summer did they say Alissa sustained a hip injury. I personally don't believe it, and after what they saw happened to Rachael, of course wouldn't want a repeat. And for the record, this is *my personal viewpoint*, and I'm sticking with it.

    Back to D/C, all that you say is true imho, yet I still say they are America's #1 Pair Team, and rightfully so! :respec: I saw them compete live at the 2012 Skate America, and they're even more impressive in person. John particularly blew me away, his toepoint on the sbs spins, his elegance, height, et al, now I see why he was paired with Caitlin for so long. Yet Caydee is no slouch either, my God her smile is like one of the Osmonds, she's simply dynamic in person. *insert awe emoticon*

    I honestly just don't want them to rush coming back, risking injury, and even worse lowering their reputation internationally. But as has been said previously by others only John's physician knows, yadda yadda yadda. :rolleyes: But if it is ultimately left up to the USFSA to decide, *I* hope they say "no". There's always next year, the Olympic Year, and they're head & shoulders above every other American Pair Team imho.

    That said, C/S are no slouches either, seeing them live in person at 2012 Skate America was also a revelation, they're just as dynamic as D/C! :respec:

    Anyhow, I hope whomever wins the two World spots for Pairs this year does well enough to earn two more spots for next year. :cool:

    :kickass:GOOOOOOOOOOO AMERICAN PAIRS' TEAMS!!!!!!!!!:kickass:


    ps: lol I'm getting sooooooooooooooooo E X C I T E D for Nationals next week, YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ITA.

    The US will probably not garner 3 spots for Sochi, but also won't slide down to 1 spot, regardless of who goes to London. So, the US doesn't benefit from D/C being there, and it's not like D/C on a personal level would miss a medal by staying home. I think they'd finish close to where they finished at '12 Worlds.

    It could be that D/C are making decisions w/ their heart, not their head, but only they, their coach, and Doctor can make the right decision.
  13. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I agree that only the skater, his doctors/physical therapists and coach can fully gauge the situation. I disagree that Denney & Coughlin risk little by sitting out 2013 worlds. Unless a skater/team is firmly established as a "star" -- i.e., VirtueMoir, Plushenko, Kim, etc. -- they lose momentum each time they miss worlds, particularly in a pre-Olympic season. To make a statement in Sochi Denney & Coughlin need a good performance at worlds this season. IMO there were instances in the fall when they did not get the respect they deserved from judges, and non-appearance in London will not help them in that regard. Certainly, that does not mean they should risk health and limb to compete, but as Sylvia notes above they will be monitored prior to being named to the U.S. world team, if they are named to the team.
  14. RUKen

    RUKen Guest

    Nancy Kerrigan

    (I just thought I'd add a positive...)

    :)
  15. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    and Christopher Bowman in 1986.
  16. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this is that similar to Alissa and Rachael's situations at all...Rachael was at Worlds with a stress fracture, Alissa was in need of surgery. In John's case, he will be well past the injury/surgery phase by the time Worlds is here. Only he knows his body, and only his doctors & those closest to him know the severity of the injury and the recommended timetable for return. If D/C is capable of being ready for Worlds, there's no reason not to go for it. You can't be afraid of where you will place. These opportunities to compete at Worlds only happen once a year, and I agree with the poster that it's better to compete than to just sit home and "protect your reputation". If you are healthy and ready, then go!

    And as for expecting USFS to yank skaters from Worlds every time there's an injury or suspected injury-- this is elite level sport. Everyone is sore, a lot of skaters are skating with some sort of pain from time to time. Athletes are trained to push through certain ailments, and oftentimes they can skate through things without causing further harm. You can't yank skaters just because they are hurting. Nobody knew Alissa had a torn hip and Rachael didn't tell anyone her injury, so there wasn't much USFS can do. They don't seem to want to pull skaters just for skating very poorly right before Worlds (like Alissa did). After all, everyone has disasterous outings sometimes. And again, John's case is different than these two girls because he's already past the injury phase and is into recovery. If he's ready to go, then they deserve to have the petition accepted. There's still quite a while until Worlds, so there's no reason for D/C not to ask for a petition if they think there's any chance of him being ready.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think if they were out for a couple of seasons -or- they missed a season where there was a lot of movement from various teams w/ penultimate group potential, then that would be a risk. But, the way it stands now, I don't think it's a risk to sit out 1/2 of one season. They would have summer comps, international B comps and Grand Prix events to build back up.

    FTR, I think they have improved over last season. John especially is really trying hard to improve his skating skills, but I don't see them as a medal threat or even final group material and I just feel they need to be careful - if something is amiss, don't push through it.
  18. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    Wow, really didn't expect to hear this news. I would prefer that they sit out the remainder of this season and come back strong and healthy next year. I guess Caydee really is fearless because the thought of doing their lifts and his hip giving out is terrifying to me.
  19. Tesla

    Tesla Whippet Good

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    Why? We don't know the severity of his injury. Since they seem able to be ready for Worlds, there's a good chance that his injury wasn't nearly as severe as Alissa's. Or as severe as it could have been.
  20. madm

    madm Active Member

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    John also has the advantage of working at the Olympic Training Center and having some of the finest physical therapy available to athletes. He is very determined and has a positive attitude. I think he has a good chance of healing pretty fast. At any rate, they won't make a decision about his readiness for Worlds until a couple of weeks before the competition.
  21. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    All good (+) examples, thanks for them! :cool:

    Still, my *opinion* hasn't changed. :)
  22. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    Any sign yet that Rockne Brubaker is going to be able to get a new partner? I feel bad for him that he's missing this season. :(
  23. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I have no clue, but have to admit am excited to see whom he will eventually pick! :cool: The pair girl out there must feel like Cinderella when Prince Charming placed the glass slipper on her foot. :D

    Btw, just a nitpick, Nancy Kerrigan just had a humongous bruise to overcome, no broken bones nor surgery nor hip injury, etc. Still, a great recovery in a matter of weeks, but I personally wouldn't put it on the same plane as a torn achilles, dislocated hip, torn hip labrium, broken leg, you get the picture. Now Elena Berezhnyia's injury & comeback was something else, brain injury and all that it entailed, including learning to speak and walk again. I'd say that trumps everybody else. Jmho.
  24. RUKen

    RUKen Guest

    OK, I accept your nitpick and present another--Tatiana Totmianina!
  25. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    Honestly not trying to start anything, but I tire of this narrative that Rockne is the perfect partner and that any girl would be lucky to skate w/ him. He's been through four partners and his last two high-profile partnerships have ended w/ his partner fleeing the sport altogether, rather mysteriously/stressfully in both situations. There is a real reluctance on FSU to even consider that perhaps Rockne isn't prince charming (most posters point out that he has had a remarkable string of "bad luck") when it comes to these relationships. Anyone who has been so lauded by fans and the USFSA over a number of years would naturally start to develop quite an ego which might, I imagine, hinder potentially successful partnerships, especially new partnerships.
    nylynnr and (deleted member) like this.
  26. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    ^^^^^
    This. I can't say why Rockne's partnerships seem to go wrong, but rather than this (see below)


    If it were me, I'd feel as edgy as the last Bride of Bluebeard.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard

  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Well, I think Rockne is neither a Prince Charming nor Bluebeard. ;)
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    But truthfully what's the basis or proof for such an insinuation and besmirchment?

    In any case, who said he's "the perfect partner." I've only seen and heard that he's a talented pairs skater who has unfortunately had to endure a couple of high profile break-ups, exact details unknown.
  29. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    What's the basis or proof that he's the perfect partner? I was just putting it out there as a possibility, since it seems to me that every pairs thread hold him up as God's gift to US pairs skating who has just gotten terribly unlucky w/ partners. That may be the case, but it also may be the case that he is not the easiest person to be in a professional relationship with.
    Stephanie and (deleted member) like this.
  30. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    "Had to endure." Maybe his behavior played a role in these partnerships ending? Is it really that offensive to even consider that?
  31. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I'm only asking what basis or proof you have for speculating/ insinuating as such. Partnerships end for any variety of reasons, including personality conflicts, growing pains, etc. And once again, who said that Rockne is "the perfect partner"?
  32. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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  33. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    Is Rockne looking for a new partner, or has he decided to give up? I feel bad for him because he is one of the best male pairs skaters in the U.S. and was at the top in his country but he's had 2 partners in a row who were too nervous for competition and sadly decided to leave. :(

    I hope Rockne can find one more partner and have a last shot at continuing his skating career. I think he has a couple more years left in him. :)
  34. JJS5056

    JJS5056 New Member

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    Are there any official guidelines for awarding byes to Worlds? I'm torn between thinking it'd be in their best interest to set some official guidelines, while thinking it might make more sense to evaluate case-by-case.

    Selfishly, I hope it's denied, as - assuming C/S become National Champions - I find nearly all of the potential silver medalists far more attractive than D/C. I am assuming any petition would likely be granted, however, given their GP results.

    I really hope D/S get their act together and rock Nationals. Last year's Championships seemed like the perfect start of a successful partnership- great, charismatic program with plenty of room for improvement. While they surely have time to "click," I don't want to wait to see them on the World stage. :) They're the perfect antidote to the far less graceful teams we've turned out in recent years.
  35. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    So anyone know whether Rockne will be at US Nationals this week? :grope:
  36. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    I've thought about the byes-to-Worlds/Olympics, trying to come up with a full list in the post-figures era and categorizing the byes into acute/medium-term/chronic injuries, as well as thinking about the relationship between the nature of the injury and the outcome of the bye: did it turn out to be a good decision to name the skater to the World or Olympic Team? In the 22 seasons since 1990-1991, there have been five byes granted to the World/Olympic team (to the best of my recollection: if I missed one, please correct me!).

    Three things jumped out at me: All five skaters/teams granted byes were previous World Medalists; three were previous Olympic medalists. Of the five byes, four involved the Olympic team. Of the two byes granted for acute injury (both occurred at Nationals), both were "justified" by the results: an Olympic Silver medal and a World Silver medal. The one bye given for medium-term injury was also "justified": World Silver medal. The two byes given for chronic injuries did not turn out well: Kwan was too injured to train fully and withdrew from the Olympics; Eldredge was also too injured to train fully and barely made it through the Olympics; I read an interview a few years ago in which he said he had trouble walking/standing while he was there and probably shouldn't have competed.

    Injury type: Skater (Year; Result of Bye; competitive record prior to bye: for Pairs/Dance, competitive record only with then-current partner)
    Acute injury: Nancy Kerrigan (1994: Olympics 2nd; 4-time Senior National medalist, reigning National Champion; 3-time World Team member, 2-time World Medalist; Olympic Bronze medal), Jenni Meno and Todd Sand (1998: Worlds 2nd, Olympics 8th; 5-time Senior National medalist; 5-time World Team member, 2-time World Medalist; 1-time Olympic Team member)
    Medium-term injury: Tanith Belbin/Ben Agosto (2009: Worlds 2nd; 8-time Senior National medalist; 7-time World Team member, 3-time World medalist, reigning World Bronze medal; Olympic Silver medal)
    Chronic injury: Michelle Kwan (2006: Olympics WD; 12-time Senior National medalist; 12-time World Team member, 9-time World medalist; 2-time Olympic medalist), Todd Eldredge (1992: Worlds 7th, Olympics 10th; 2-time National Champion; 2-time World team member, reigning World Bronze medalist)

    Publicly turned down:
    Acute injury: Nicole Bobek (1996; 2-time Senior National medalist, reigning National Champion; 2-time World Team member, did not advance from qualifying round at first Worlds, reigning World Bronze medalist). Bobek had a long history of inconsistent training and coach-hopping. In late 1994, she injured her ankle but chose to continuing touring instead of taking time off to heal the ankle. IIRC, many people felt that International Committee was trying to send her a message by turning down her bye request.

    There have been a few cases I can recall where a skater/team was nearly guaranteed a place on the Junior World team but had to withdraw from Nationals in situations where they would have been able to be prepared for Junior Worlds. There seems to be sort of an unofficial guideline that only skaters/teams who compete at Nationals may be named as World Junior team members, but occasionally a skater/team in this situation is named as an alternate to Junior Worlds. I can also think of a few cases in which a skater/team who had previously competed at Worlds was injured or ill and chose to compete because they thought the standard to receive a bye to Worlds/Olympics made it unlikely that they would be named to the team.

    FWIW, I would not be surprised if Denney/Coughlin's application is considered in light whether the pairs' event at Nationals is :kickass: or :fragile:.

    As always, any thoughts or speculation is solely my own; I just drive the zamboni. :)
  37. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Active Member

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    Thanks, 5Ali3. I agree with your assertion about a possible bye for Denney and Coughlin may depend on how well our teams skate at Nationals. It's not as if D/C were lights out at worlds last year. If any of our other pairs medalists skate to the best of their ability they could probably equal the result that D/C had at Worlds 2012
  38. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    (Speaking of Rockne Brubaker)

    I agree. I was rewatching 2012 4CC recently. Since I knew that his partnership had broken up subsequent to the competition, and that his partner was not continuing in skating, I concentrated on watching him. (That's not something I generally do when watching a pairs team, since the focus is usually on the female partner.) He's very, very good, and also very watchable. I don't mean any insuations by that, simply that his skating is pure, he has good line (surprising given his build), his skating technique is very good, and everything is finished well.

    For all I know his personality may not be as wonderful as his skating (I have no idea) but from my own selfish point of view I would love to see him skating again. He's a joy to watch when he is on.
  39. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    He's at Nationals. Sarah interviewed him. :scream:
  40. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    interesting bit of info., thanks for providing it reese. :)

    now i'm wondering if he's there *scouting* for a future pair girl.... :confused: and if so, whom shall it be? who has he been watching during practice? during competition? and who is available? or will be so?

    lots of ????
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