US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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  1. Pulaski73

    Pulaski73 New Member

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    Re Sappenfield:

    I think the style and component aspect of her teams has honestly had everything to do with the actual skaters. D/C and S/K don't necessarily have the best skating skills and we can all tell. However if you look at some of her former teams such as Mclaughlin/Brubaker and Yankowskas/Coughlin, they had exceptional style, poise, and choreography. Give S/K some time together and I bet next season their programs will be far better than they clearly are this season. Unfortunately, D/C have yet to truly embrace their skillset as skaters in terms of natural movement, etc. Once they begin to find their syle, I'm sure they'll be much stronger internationally. They are trying!! (Hiring Camerlengo, etc...) But I don't know if Sappenfield is to be blamed for Denney's lack of grace. The skaters she molded (Mclaughlin, Yankowskas, even skaters like Paetsch, Carmen, and Simpson) all had/have STUNNING lift positions, skating skills, and general athleticism. She is clearly doing something right to have had the last 4/5 national champions.
  2. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    As I have stated, her results are quite impressive, and I am not blaming her for all of Caydee's 'issues'. Her positions are horrible, but the girl gets the job done and you can't argue with that. What I can argue with is Sappenfield's lack of desire to up the ante technically and go outside the box in any fashion in choreography and music. Her results are excellent domestically, but to break the barrier at Worlds changes need to be made. Keauna and Caitlyn have/had a natural talent, poise, and connection with music. Sappenfield didn't teach them those skills. My problem is that she doesn't seem to know how to package her skaters that aren't as gifted in that area properly.
  3. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    . My problem is that she doesn't seem to know how to package her skaters that aren't as gifted in that area properly.[/QUOTE]


    I'm curious how would you in detail package her teams specifically? D/C, S/K, S/B, A/S, and anyone else that is her teams can't remember them all but I know there is a lot.....If you feel they are not "packaged" properly how would you do it? There are some challenges and certain things are NOT a coaches choice...money for costumes, money for choreographers, dance, extra lessons and sessions...additional coaching etc..but maybe that is not what you are talking about. I think she is brilliant with what she works with including families and skaters working in their realm of ability, financial capability and newness...although I am just assuming that when you put that many teams, pairs, individuals and families together you better be good at making sure you can figure that one out...must be hard!

    You continue to say the same thing without detail and I would love to hear what you would do specifically for these teams that are so lacking because you have a point I am not sure that saying it is not there without adding what specifically it is and how it can be improved is fair...and I am just nosy I guess..so if you care to share...
  4. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Based on what criteria? Certainly not the same as the judges are using.

    Fairly clean? What does that even mean? They just land the elements and nothing else? D/C did do well on their throw in the short, however it wasn't high nor did she get far when she was thrown. Unlike Pang and Volosohzar who were thrown both high AND far. They did have slight errors on the landing, but nothing that would give them -1.00 or more and would I rather see that as opposed to a girl who lands it but barely gets off the ground and a guy who almost comes to a complete stop.

    At least you admit their PCS scores aren't up to snuff because that is HALF the score. You can have the highest base value and TES but if you can't do the elements BETTER than the competition (i.e. the best in the world); skating clean isn't going to cut it until the element and PCS scores are made as good as the skaters can do them. But if you have a coach who ignores the weaknesses of the team, they will NEVER get better. You can blame the two time World Champions for being who are they but there is no mistaking they are fabulous (11 years in the top four at Worlds except for two years when they were 5th, 2003 and 2008) Same with V/T who are now in their third year together but who were also 4th in the world with previous partners; they are fabulous skaters. Look at what happened to them in the short program at Worlds last year, there were 8th! So judges aren't afraid to give scores the teams deserve even if they already have a World silver medal.

    I'm not sure if I should use :rolleyes: or :rofl:

    They are appropriately awarded. Judges aren't holding them down, their coach is.
  5. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    According to D/C bios Sappenfield did not choreograph their programs ? you are aware of this right? I think it says :
    Choreographer:
    Pasquale Camerlengo I don't know this person but I am assuming they are very good. Maybe someone else has information on them?


    Do you have a personal problem with this coach? cause it seems to me most of the pair teams work with either a choreographer or someone working on artistry like Patrick Chan's current coach works with them in the story Kathy someone? I read in US Figure Skating magazine...so most of this information is and seems bias against this coach for some personal reason? Most of the pair coaches by Junior or especially Senior level work with professional choreographers that are very experienced and talented...so confused there but it was interesting checking that out I learned some things.
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Camerlengo is probably the most broadly admired choreographer in figure skating today, imo.
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  8. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    I'm curious how would you in detail package her teams specifically? D/C, S/K, S/B, A/S, and anyone else that is her teams can't remember them all but I know there is a lot.....If you feel they are not "packaged" properly how would you do it? There are some challenges and certain things are NOT a coaches choice...money for costumes, money for choreographers, dance, extra lessons and sessions...additional coaching etc..but maybe that is not what you are talking about. I think she is brilliant with what she works with including families and skaters working in their realm of ability, financial capability and newness...although I am just assuming that when you put that many teams, pairs, individuals and families together you better be good at making sure you can figure that one out...must be hard!

    You continue to say the same thing without detail and I would love to hear what you would do specifically for these teams that are so lacking because you have a point I am not sure that saying it is not there without adding what specifically it is and how it can be improved is fair...and I am just nosy I guess..so if you care to share...[/QUOTE]



    I would hesitate to say what I would do with all of her teams. I don't think that I am capable of giving a list of issues for all of them, but I do think there are a lot of teams that are hindered by the amount of teams she coaches. She is a good coach, obviously, and knows what she is doing, but she has room for improvement with the SBS, with the throws, getting the full points on the lifts, and getting better PCS scores.
  9. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Get a clue. They were undermarked. Just because a throw was 'higher' with more 'distance' it should get more points than a strong, cleanly landed throw? Seriously? I am just stating what is obvious. I am not sure if I should use an eyeroll or LMAO for YOU. You clearly have little idea as what goes on in pair skating if you think P\T outskated D/C. I guess you can spend your time figuring out what fairly clean means and I don't have the time or will to explain it to you..............
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  10. Pulaski73

    Pulaski73 New Member

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    I 100% agree with Carriemarie. D/C skated completely clean and were seriously undermarked. P/T and V/T should be getting higher PCS but their GOE on elements is outrageous. D/C Hit their elements and have excellent athleticism to do such and are not rewarded in grade of execution. I'm sorry, no matter how elegant they may be during the rest of their program, a botched throw should not be getting positive execution marks and a cleanly landed throw should be getting high ones. This can be the same for jumps, etc. But when an aborted lift (V/T at skate america) is getting positive GOE, you can't seriously believe the judging was good at Skam.

    And If you're going to say someone does a poor job at packaging someone, please give a specific example instead of just a "boo" without any support. It just doesn't make for an intellectual conversation. I think Sappenfield is just hit or miss with program ideas as is every choreographer. If you look at some of her previous progra,s (Again I use Keauna and Caitlin for examples) I thought M/B Romeo and Juliet was an excellent program as well as Y/C Ave Maria. M/B and Y/C Malaguena and Oblivion programs were exquisite on both ladies. Denney has A LOT of issues to work on artistically and Sappenfield is obviously trying (I think Aranjuez is a great program for her.) I also believe S/K Moonlight Sonata is entrancing as well, a little barren, but you can't throw in everything and the kitchen sink all at once. It would just be too much for them. I LOVE LOVE LOVE A/S programs this year and think she is essentially a Prima Ballerina on ice. Britney Simpson is a DIVA thanks to Dalilah as well and you could see people crying at nationals during their Titanic program. I think she's doing an A-Okay job with packaging thus far. We just don't love our national champions... that's the real problem IMO. They just really need a great vehicle for next year.
  11. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    If you read the explanation for GOE in COP, it is clear that a cleanly executed throw with no errors and no outstanding features should receive a GOE of 0. Simply executing an element cleanly under COP is not supposed to earn an element high GOE.

    I don't really have an opinion on D/C vs. P/T but I'm thrilled that we have someone here with carriemarie's knowledge and expertise on pair skating to tell us which posters have no idea about what goes on in pair skating. And which judging panels. Really, I don't know what FSU would do if we had to assume that the judges might have some idea of what they are doing.
  12. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    My problem with Sappenfield's choreography is she only does traditional programs. Be they ballet, dramatic soundtrack, Spanish or what not, unless you have naturally good posture, there's little effort to mask the posture problems or give a pair quirky programs where a non-balletic style would actually work in their favor. For example, I'd like to see D/C skate to something like Bald Mountain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmztA5iMUSA, minus the flexi moves) where the emphasis would be on energy, instead of trying to make her into a pwetty pwincess.

    I'm sure skaters she worked with starting at an early age do have good posture and look good with the types of programs she favors. My point (can't really speak for anyone else) was that these programs don't work for D/C.
  13. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Glad my knowledge could be of service;)
    Seriously, my point and my post was a bit snarky and condescending and that wasn't my intention. I understand the principle that a throw that has errors can get a better GOE than a landed one, especially if the landed one has technical issues. I don't think D/C have too many technical issues in their throws and they look quite nice when landed. I firmly believed they were undermarked at both their GP's and didn't have a chance in hell to be above third, regardless of how the top teams skated. Not all agree with me. It's fine, it's just my opinion, but I believe it is valid.

    As far as the styling issue, I think Sappenfield is trying to make D/C something they are not. Although the programs and costuming is totally improved from last year, I don't believe they should try to make Caydee into a ballerina. They should play up her more athletic style. I hesitate to truly criticize S/K since they have only been together a short time and are still a bit sloppy and working out the kinks. As far as her other teams, I feel like she tends to structure most of her programs in similar fashion and continues to use very generic music and cuts, but you can't argue with results like hers. I just feel for the US to reach the top tier in pairs thinking outside the box with technical content, music, and styling would benefit our teams. Obviously, Sappenfield knows what she is doing and is a great coach, but I wish she would be a bit more creative and work with a skater's strong points not against.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  14. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^^^

    D/C did quite well at CoR. I believe their LP score was around 120 pts. for a clean program and no one would argue that the Russian pairs are significantly better than they are. Plus, they were at a disadvantage competing in Russia against the top 2 Russian teams (I consider B/L above K/S at this point) and their marks were quite inflated.

    But, the Russian teams received marks that were flat out too high. The British Commentators were aghast at V/T's mark!
  15. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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  16. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    I believe D/C will eventually be rewarded for consistently skating solid performances. As I said, I am not an uber-fan of them by any means, but I appreciate the fact they have great determination and seem like they do really well under pressure. I am never worried they are going to bomb. They seem like they practice clean programs daily and just go out and perform them in competition. They certainly lack the flair and natural skating ability of the Russian teams, but they can always work to improve their PCS, while I think B/L's technical problems and incosistencies will be harder to clean up. I would never say D/C are better than the Russians, but at CoR they were quite good given what the Russians put out skating wise. And I have always felt V/T's marks were very, very high regardless of the competition.

    ETA-just saw the above post. Does this mean D/C are out for Nationals?
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  18. Catherine M

    Catherine M Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's a safe assumption. I'm not a doctor but I do work at a hospital and hip surgeries usually take about 3-6 months to fully heal from, including time for physical therapy so I really can't see them skating again this season. But I guess we'll have to wait and see for the official word from team Denney & Coughlin.
  19. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to say I'm a *fan* of Sappenfield's choreography, packaging, et al, always have been, and was hoping D/S would go to her...
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Thanks for the info, Catherine M.

    Andrew Speroff was with Sappenfield originally (for at least 3 partners after Rachael Flatt). I believe he relocated to Boston because Donlan was underage at the time and couldn't easily move herself.
  21. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know that, and automatically *assumed* that he is where he is now because Gretchen Donlan's from Boston, et al. And one of the deals of the partnership I'm *assuming* once again is that he had to move where she was, and that included her coaches, etc. In fact he stated on his facebook page that he used to live with Gretchen and her family.

    Btw, I enjoy reading your site, Sylvia.
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Updated from an earlier post (#521) in this thread:
    Senior Pairs at 2013 Nationals (down to 11 teams):

    Denney/Coughlin 179.21, CoR 178.90 (172.16) - out of Nationals at least
    Castelli/Shnapir 174.86 174.51, NHK (165.74)
    Scimeca/Knierim 163.10, NHK 156.00 (158.63)
    Donlan/Speroff 145.35 135.43, Ice Challenge (150.00)
    Davis/Ladwig 143.70, NHK 122.26 (144.35)
    Vise/Baldwin 143.34 143.15, CoR (138.68)
    Zhang/Bartholomay 143.32, Salt Lake Sr B (150.05) [Note: Felicia skated injured at Eastern Sectionals to qualify for Nationals]
    Kayne/O'Shea (150.50) (137.72, Easterns)
    Denney/Frazier 127.33*, JGP (150.08)
    Baga/Toth (119.41) (106.73, Mids)
    Leng/LeDuc (113.44, Mids)
    Yankowskas/Reagan (no full competition score available)

    * = Junior score
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    *sigh* Sad for D/C

    It looks like C/S and S/K are most likely world's team, unless D/C are magically ready in time or D/S pull themselves together ...
  24. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Active Member

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    I must've missed the latest on Yankowskas/Reagan. What's their injury and how long are they out for?

    (The very cynical side of me wonders if Caydee Denney will still be skating with Coughlin after US Nationals 2013.)
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    According to a USFS press release dated November 9th, Caitlin Yankowskas/Joshua Reagan "were forced to withdraw from both of their Grand Prix assignments, Cup of China and NHK Trophy, after Reagan sustained a rib injury in practice last month."
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Y/R were out for entire GP season. They had been assigned to CoC and then from the alternates list to NHK.
  27. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Just a side note, but I can't believe how much Caitlin Yankowskas reminds me of Oksana Baiul, not just in looks, but more importantly how they skate, WOW! :eek: :hat1:
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree Denney/ Coughlin might benefit from using high energy dramatic music to highlight their strengths, rather than soft, lyrical traditional ballet-type music/ choreo.

    Best of luck to John for a full and safe recovery, and I look forward to seeing him and Caydee back on the ice when he's fully healed!
  29. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  30. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Wow- I hope John Coughlin has a full recovery and is in top shape for the Olympic season.

    The pairs event at nationals should be interesting. The scores show there are definitely top teams and lower tier teams, but really- it seems like this is anybody's ball game, no one really has a big enough reputation to hold them up if they don't skate great. I can't wait to see how it plays out.
  31. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    My ultimate dream for pairs is that the two that go to the Olympics do good enough in the *Team Event* to earn the USA a medal, because I think it's going to come down to pairs in the end. Dance no problem. Ladies 80% chance of doing good. Men 50/50. Then comes pairs :eek: Whomever skates pairs' for the USA is going to have the biggest burden/albatross.

    Which is why they have to kick it up a notch! The bronze will be between them and Canada...
  32. hlp728

    hlp728 Active Member

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    Found a video of Caityln and Josh skating at the Dallas Galleria. They skated to Music from Nutcracker Ballet, Waltz of the Flowers I think. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dTAzVFJcbjk. You can skip towards the 6:55 marker. I can't wait to see more from them!!
  33. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Who is gonna win silver and gold?
  34. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

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    I've been wondering that too (who will win silver & gold in the Team Event). Perhaps there should be a separate thread for this but Japan has the pairs and dance deficits (do they have a pairs team that can compete in the Olympics?). Canada has strengths in 3 disciplines and maybe ladies will be better if Osmond continues to do well (but they'll need another lady). Russia has strengths in all four disciplines unless Plushenko doesn't skate. Italy needs some men. I'd say the US may be on par with or perhaps a bit stronger than France.
  35. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Right now, I'd argue it's Russia, Canada, France and USA for the podium.
  36. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I've bumped up an old thread for you and copied over your post above (as well as other posts related to this topic): Team event in Sochi

    ETA: Marissa Castelli tweeted yesterday that she was "Heading up to the great white north tomorrow" so it sounds like she and Simon are going back to work with Julie Marcotte et al. in Montreal.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  37. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I'm curious -- why? Do you mean to be safe? They can only enter two skaters/teams in up to two disciplines, one each skating the short and the free, but there's not requirement to have more than one from each discipline. If Canada is bent on winning, they wouldn't split Dance or Men, unless there is a miracle between now and Sochi or Chan and/or V/M requested it.

    Unless the Canadian Ladies skater earns more than one spot at Worlds in London, Canada can't have more than one Ladies entry. (That's technically true of all disciplines, but barring disaster, Canada should easily have at least two in every other discipline, since everyone who finishes the SP gets a maximum of 16 points, which means the second skater has to be, at worst, in the top 12.)
  38. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Didn't see much from that video of Ashley and Josh, but nice star carry!
  39. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    It's "Pas de Deux" from The Nutcracker. This video is filmed from high above the small rink!
    You mean Caitlin and Josh. ;) They are the only pair with no competition videos online so far this season, so it's difficult to assess how they will fare at Nationals.
  40. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean to jinx them, but if they win the US nationals, it would be quite fitting because Coughlin won it with his new partner (Denney) after he split from Yankowskas.
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