US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 4, 2012.

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  1. Spiralgraph

    Spiralgraph Active Member

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    As is Yankowskas/Reagan. It is wide open And I'm hoping that first place isn't prejudged either. The best team for the SP and LP should win. 'Nuff said.
     
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  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, S/K IMO have the most potential. D/S are beautiful but they really need to start landing the SBS jumps consistently (ditto C/S). D/L are brand new and I think D/F will need more cred as seniors to go to Worlds (unless they show us an out-of-this-world season leading up to Nats).

    But, S/K really really need to get at least one Sr. B assignment to get on the map. I hope they don't get ignored by the brain surgeons running the USFSA (which is a possibility :mad: )
     
  3. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    I agree most of the above. Most of the US pair teams have sbs jump issues. Why is it that their pair coaches fail to see this as a fatal flaw in these teams. Once there is a fall on a jump(s), it interrupts the program to some extent, and then the team has to play catch up to get into the next element, which can then compromise that subsequent element. Jumps are required elements for goodness sakes.... make it a priority to lean how to properly execute them...even the basic 2A is problematic for some of these teams. Focusing on two or three jump elements for 20-30 minutes a day...2A, 3S or 3T should not be that difficult. Get Christy Krall to come in and do DartFish with these teams on their jumps. No US team will have international credibility until they learn to jump, regardless of how "beautiful" they are on the ice.
     
  4. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Really agree with you B. Cooper. Teams like D/S especially seem to literally "have it all" except the solo jumps. Send them to someone who can absolute reconstruct their jumps. Truly, it seems like all you need in senior pairs is a reliable double axel and triple toe loop. RELIABLE. Not great. Just reliable. It's not like you can WIN a pairs event with great SBS jumps, but you can certainly lose a few places with mistakes, lose points messing them up.
     
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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    Am I imagining it or have we had this pairs and sbs jumps discussion many times before here on FSU? :p

    I think it's a positive sign that Scimeca/Knierim were recently added to the ISP.

    VERY glad to see that Zhang/Bartholomay and Davis/Ladwig have been assigned to their first international together in Salt Lake City!
     
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of times :lol: But, it probably won't abate until we see more viable teams landing their SBS jumps.

    Yes. Definitely a good sign. I think this means that D/L have 1 Intl. Sr. B comp and 1 GP event, and Z/B have 1 Sr. B comp? Really hoping that S/K get one (the USFSA needs to be on top of new teams with potential), and it might be great for D/S to get one as well.

    ETA - any more vids of the LP at Indy Challenge. I didn't see the one for C/S where they scored 103 pts. or so
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    D/S have Skate America :cheer2:
     
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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    Not yet but see my post in the Indy Challenge thread in Kiss and Cry: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3659091#post3659091

    I think it's very possible that Donlan/Speroff will also get a Senior B.
     
  9. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    Yup, Sylvia....This discussion has been had many many many times. :lol:


    But, all joking aside....why doesn't it change? It is one of the biggest hurdles for US pair teams, IMO. Is this a failing of US style of teaching? I don't really think so, because so many of the US singles skaters focus on jumps early in their careers. Why doesn't it carry over into pairs? The elite Chinese and many of the European teams have figured this out...jumps are required elements. ;-) What happened to the program IIRC, USFSA used to run, for their pair teams. Wasn't there a pair camp of some sort a few years ago...something that was held early in each season? I would think if you are hearing the same feedback that the coach would expand the coaching staff to include someone who can teach these kids to demonstrate a 2A, 3S or 3T with some level of consistency.
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It's one of the biggest hurdles for any pair teams, not just the US ones. :p
     
  11. madm

    madm Active Member

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    What you train is what you get. Few of the U.S. pair teams do singles training in addition to pair training. When my daughter trained pairs in Colorado Springs, she was one of the only skaters who did a 45-min singles session and lesson with a singles coach every day. Most of the pair skaters did pair sessions only, focusing on pair elements and programs. In fact, very few of the pair skaters there had passed a senior singles freeskate test, partly because they don't skate singles anymore and partly because they don't see any value in doing so.

    If a skater does not begin skating pairs with a mastery of all double jumps and preferably a few triples, it is unlikely that the skater will develop them while doing pair skating. I'm not sure how skaters in other countries develop their triples, but they must be doing singles training in addition to their pair training.
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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    A pair coach has done this, in fact: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120109&content_id=26295476&vkey=ice_news

    Caydee Denney/John Coughlin debuted their new programs in exhibition at the Colorado Championships in early August - no other details besides the fact that they scored 172.16 total.
     
  13. pair mom

    pair mom New Member

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    At pair centres in Canada pair teams indeed are required to do singles ice as well as their pair session work. My son successfully tested his Sr. Competitive singles while working and competing as a Jr. Pair. His heart was definitely as a pair guy but he competed a couple of smaller events as a Sr. Man. And for the record, he also has his Gold Dances and was able to supplement his training expenses by partnering dance tests! :) Every little bit helps! :)
     
  14. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, good for them. I really hope they are working on their line and extensions. PCS is their Achilles heel (biggest gap in pts.) when competing against the top teams. It would be nice to see them bump up a level or so on non-jump elements, too, although that wouldn't necessarily add up to a treasure trove of points. This may come with time as they get more and more used to one another on the ice
     
  15. oldskoolsk8tr

    oldskoolsk8tr New Member

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    Part of the problem is just nerves with all other huge pair elements not just singles skating.

    Another issue especially with boys in pairs is when they start and are Novice the girl they skate with has a consistent double lutz some boys can do triple lutz and have competed singles with triples but are held back in jumping for clean programs at low levels and that is what pairs usually do sometimes for years. The girls can also train singles session at a young age although this rarely gives a consistent triple even with all the extra money spent which is another issue. Gaining a mastery over strong pair elements is huge! and takes tons of training time and focus to be sure but when I see a team that can jump consistently and can't hold the girl and I am holding my breath when they lift, throw, or twist I hate that. All things take time and balance...more senior competitions with higher level jumps and not forced to to doubles in lower novice and junior competition we will see more consistency it is very very simple.

    Most of the older boys in pairs (senior) almost all of them...are not supported by their parents, work, and go to school, they do not have a country that pays for everything including living arrangements, extra lessons, and all expenses. I have seen this money and extra tons of single sessions not help some younger pair girls gain consistent triple throws, and consistent high level jumps. So it is about time and years being able to compete them not just train them.

    Pairs have a harder time mainly not in training I have seen most of the teams land all jumps in training it is mostly mental and experience in senior from what I can see. They can also be affected by their partners/self nerves...this all usually calms down after about year three (hence the teams staying together issue) OR...pairs that have each been in senior pairs for at least 5 years even with other partners have more consistent higher level jumps because they do them in competition over and over...the teams with trouble are teams moving up to senior that in junior and novice only had to do double flip, or up to double axel.

    Pairs is very very taxing on the body for the girls and guys. Training a single session more than once a day can have an effect there needs to be a balance. Most teams and coaches especially the successful ones are not stupid. They train jumps the same way they train a consistent triple twist. if you are totally supported financially and your parents pay for everything...and you don't go to school college, or work this probably helps this no doubt but that is unrealistic for someone over 20 years old in real life.

    So I prefer to see pairs continue to work on singles as they do in their program training all the elements... all dedicate time to it but as they stay in senior over 5 years we will see more consistency barring nerves and combining high pair elements, throw triples, triple or quad twists, and alike do find a hard balance with jumps and spins...for pairs I prefer to see safe and strong pair elements...as pairs do triples in their program for everyday training it becomes more consistent...! As they don't have to go back and do doubles cause the girl or partner cannot do a consistent or clean jump no matter how many singles sessions are skated...things will improve.

    This does have an effect.

    More competition in senior and gaining mastery over nerves and balance of program it will get better. Although that said let's remember it is ice and a pair blowing a jump on their own (such as Rockne and MB did their first nationals happens especially with new partnerships in senior) and not dropping a lift...well we all know ice is slippery it happens...the jumps or spins usually go when it is just them....

    I believe a team feels the nerves mostly then...it takes time like I said years doing the higher level elements in program to gain mastery over self...when they are responsible for holding a lift or a pair element they are dependent on each other and I find it positive those are usually strong by senior....I find a huge frustration when a team goes out and lands all their single elements and cannot do a pair element to save their lives..plus my heart can't take it!! So listen in a perfect world we'd have everything more appropriately the pairs skater who dedicates hours and hours would have everything but it takes time, focus, and time..

    Although I am sure there are many especially higher level pair guys/gals who are working and going to school that would love to live with free financial worries and so would their families who homes are mortgaged and other siblings that hugely sacrifice too...not do that so anyone complaining should instead be finding a pair guy or girl to financial help support that don't have incredibly rich parents...so stop complaining and help...the time issue and development in senior pairs for at least 5 years cannot be speeded up and mistakes happen and it is part of the learning process we can't take that away but the financial part even one extra single session a week plus lesson is about 50 dollars a week x 4 is 200 a month so find a team you like and offer to pay for that one single session...it would help! OR SUPPORT THE MEMORIAL FUND!

    It is fine to discuss it but please do not take away from the skaters out there finding a balance at 21 and up between life in the real world and trying to go after their dreams....AND

    The coaches know what they are doing they do not want a pair who is exhausted form singles training to drop a level 4/5 lift and injury has to be considered so there is balance there...we may think catching a clean triple twist is easy and should not be a big deal but put that in senior long with three high level lifts and all huge pair elements...and then when it is just you and a jump or spin that is the first to go I believe cause everything catches up..so balance training more time more time more time...it comes together...other countries have the same issues except the ones in senior for like 10 years so....

    DO not forget or dismiss...that they are training singles on their 4 pair sessions daily....6 days a week...where they work with spin, jump, and choreography coaches as well as their pair coach(s).with their partner which is what they should do... but like I said more time doing triples in program with a partner that is doing the same to gain consistency and combining those with very very strong pair elements and teams staying together will all help and also I am sure they would appreciate any donations to help so check that out and or support the memorial fund! WHEW...
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    The Cranberry Open was this weekend, I think? Any one of note skate?
     
  17. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I know that Shaughnessy/Morgan skated. Not sure on what their points were, but they didn't have any competitors.
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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    Castelli/Shnapir and Donlan/Speroff both competed. I heard that Castelli/Shnapir skated well in both programs (~56 in SP, 100+ in FS) but that's all I know at the moment.

    Taylor Toth tweeted that Kiri Baga is taking her Senior Pair test today.

    ETA: Kiri tweeted that she passed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^Thanks, Sylvia (and Johndockley92). It's heartening that C/S skated well. Marks like that imply that they were relatively clean (?). but, more interested to hear if there was any improvement for D/S from Indy Challenge
     
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Sylvia

    I'm a little worried about Y/R. They seem to be a bit behind; a new pair deciding to redo their program. but, maybe they are keeping expectations low this season?

    D/S - The focus on FW is OK, but ... I'd be a little happier if she said something to the effect of 'I'm focusing on my jumps and I'm much more consistent'

    Now D/C -
    The first step is admitting you have a problem :shuffle:
     
  22. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I'm worried Y/R are going to be a mess at their Grand Prix events...
     
  23. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia Fretting that Worlds is over...

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    ^^^ gkelly you should cross-post in the Lake Placid JGP thread in Kiss and Cry. :)

    Quote from Joshua Reagan in the Champs Camp article:
    "Johnny [Johns], Marina [Zoueva] and David [Kirby] started us slow," Reagan said. "For [the first] month or month and a half, it was really just getting in shape. Obviously, we want to be successful this year, but next year is when we want to have our biggest splash, even if it means not doing as much right now [in order to be] better later on."

    ETA that Vise/Baldwin (who have been added as the 3rd US pair for the Salt Lake Senior B in mid-September) skated their SP in exhibition at the Golden West club competition earlier today. I heard they scored 49.28, got Level 4 on their lift, sbs spin, and footwork, and landed sbs 3T, with hands down on the throw 3Lz. See the TV Alerts forum (or the Golden West competition thread in Kiss and Cry) for a live video stream link for Saturday's FS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  25. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Ha- imagine how USFSA feels with Y/R and D/L having two each...pass the tums...:slinkaway:
     
  26. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    With the departure of M/B and the Summer events now finished, I see the new partnerships making a big statement this season...I also don't feel team Boston is a lock for Sochi or 2013 Worlds unless they actually earn it....politiks aside
     
  27. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    team Boston?
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Perhaps carriemarie is referring to the fact that Boston is where two of the top U.S. pairs teams train: Castelli/Schnapir and Donlan/Speroff.
     
  29. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear that V/B had a better outing at Golden West w/ their SP.

    I'm really hoping for an assignment for S/K.
     
  30. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Exactly. Sorry if that was unclear. They are on paper the top US teams under D/C. I am just not convinced they will automatically be in the top 2 or in Sochi. Pairs field is wide open and some of the new pairings look promising like S/K and second year team Z/B.
     
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