Unusual jump combo... inspiration from the past

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by aftershocks, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otH4Ed1IjUQ&feature=related

    Toller Cranston -- La Rondine (I even love the way he bows at the end) :swoon:
    check out the combo at 1:52 - 1:57 and in slo-mo at 4:21 - 4:31
    A one-foot axel into a double salchow! ** May sound simple but it can't be easy to perform. For me interesting combination jumps like this, as well as creative moves (which this program is full of) and transitions in and out of jumps (a la Jeremy Abbott and Matt Savoie) are more compelling and unique than that "danged" extra quad revolution, which mostly for me just detracts from a program, and the extra revolution is just the blink of an eye. I Don't Care!!!

    But I do wish more skaters would be inspired by watching past skating programs to incorporate unusual combo jumps and unique moves into their programs. Tired of the cookie cutter elements. Also, what are some other unique and difficult combos besides 3loop, 3loop?

    BTW, a delayed single axel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVNImLRliFU a la Charlie Tickner (no stalking of jumps in that program), IMO, is so much more pleasing to the eye than a 3-axel (unless it's one of Johnny's gorgeous 3-axels :))

    **ETA: reminded from the Skate Journal link posted below by Sylvia, that Jill Trenary performed a one-foot axel, 3-salchow in her 1990 lp.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
  3. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Unless the ISU would consider a "choreographic jump sequence" in the long program, it all comes down to the points, and I'm afraid these more unusual sequences will not be seen in today's programs.

    Keep in mind we are seeing more half-loop+3 salchow combinations/"sequences" these days because they're being rewarded more (now considered a 3 jump combination)
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I would love something like that.

    A few years ago I came up with some possible features for jump sequences with low- or nonrotational jumps to earn levels, with level 1 being worth not much and level 4 more than a double axel. If it's a choreo sequence, which seems to be the trend lately, then difficulty wouldn't matter, except maybe in GOEs.

    Either way, it could take the place of a jumping pass or a sequence.

    But what about double jumps (other than double axel)? They're comparatively rare in senior competition but some of the lesser jumpers will use some of their regular jump passes for doubles if they don't have enough triples. In juniors, many skaters below the top ranks don't have enough triples to fill all the jump passes.

    So I probably wouldn't want to see sequences with double jumps relegated to choreo sequences when they're actually harder than what some international competitors are doing for standard jump passes.

    On the other hand, it would be nice to give the strong jumpers the option to do something creative with jumps that are easy for them and get rewarded for it without having to give up one of their triple jump passes.

    If choreo jump sequence or leveled small jump sequence is a kind of sequence that substitutes for a second step sequence instead of for a jump pass, then the good jumpers can do it in addition to their regular jumps.

    If it is in place of a triple jump pass and allows double jumps, then I'd want to build in extra points for doing jumps in opposite directions, maybe for double jumps with inside edge landings on the other foot, and so forth.

    And the +GOEs should be large enough that there's appropriate reward for including single jumps with difficult air positions like split-flip or split lutz or delayed axel
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  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Here's a pretty and simple, not elaborate jump from Midori Ito, with steps going into it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU 1:41 - 1:48

    Who do you recall Seerek, performing half-loop, 3 salchow? That's another interesting combo. With IJS constantly re-assessing, it might be possible, IMO, to allow for more unique combinations. The sport should be about evolving in ways that enhance the sport and art of figure skating. To me, the issue right now is that the points-gathering system has created a number of problems, including cookie cutter programs, and skaters leaving out jumps they find difficult to do :rolleyes: (and I ain't talking about the quad either, which is just an extra revolution).

    I'm talking about skaters including at least one of every skating repertoire jump in their free programs (whether it be a single, double or triple) axel, lutz, loop, flip, salchow, toe. Forget about requiring quads (unless they want to set up a separate jumping contest for quads and quad combos). I know the quad isn't going away, but more needs to be done about studying how it affects skaters' bodies, the physics of trying to do them (height and quick revolutions are the key, but it also seems to be an energy, timing and mental hurdle connected with the layout and flow of a program), how it impacts programs, training, and other jumps.

    The jumps and the athletic side are very important in fs, but the art should not take a back seat either, and unfortunately that's what usually happens. Young up-and-comers with jumps are generally rewarded more, while the attitude toward artistry is okay if you have it (a la Jason Brown) but the jumps come first (as in, he's got to have that 3-axel down -- yes he does in today's men's field -- but now the quad too, mon dieu, -- pls don't lose artistry in the process). I think jumps and artistry are needed for a well-rounded skater, and for the growth of the sport. Yuzuru Hanyu is a gifted prodigy with artistry and amazing jumps, but his endurance and pacing are not good, plus he still needs to mature artistically. Brezina came first with the jumps, and he's still trying to catch up with the artistry. Gachinski has bravura jumps, but needs a lot of work on developing artistry, and not just through camouflage (Has he taken ballet??? He's Russian after all). Oda has amazing height on his jumps, but he strings them together cluelessly with no artistry (even though the judges seem so blinded by the jumps, they pump up his PCS). I agree with those who feel that Nan Song should have scored higher than Oda at CoC -- While Song needs work on artistry too, his program was much better conceived and performed than Oda's.
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Double post
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  7. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    Chan, for one, does triple lutz, half-loop, triple salchow. Rippon, among others, is also trying it this year.

    Also, Rochette did some beautiful triple toe, half-loop, triple salchow combos/sequences.
  8. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Jason Thomas used to do triple lutz, landing on the left foot and tapping into another triple lutz.

    Beat that O.O
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Is there any video? Thomas was a talented young skater from the Chicago area who placed 6th in Novice at 2009 U.S. Nationals. Last I heard, he was hoping to represent India internationally but I'm not sure he has competed since 2009?
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'd love to see that ... very interesting as the lutz is a difficult jump by itself.
  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :swoon: :swoon: Rohene! Haven't seen him in a long time ... he's sporting beard and bushy 'fro :cool: (or is it a form of flat-top Mohawk? I can't get a clear look).
  12. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Emily Hughes used to do a one foot axel in a triple salchow in her junior programs.

    She also used to a charlotte into her combo spin or layback. She also invented the shoot the duck position on her sit spin.

    Another one I would say, was Midori Ito's double loop-triple loop combo. Who even did that ever?
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  13. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I don't think I've seen a video of it, not sure that he even got credit for it as a combination which is unfortunate!!

    Last I heard he is done skating, but I don't know him personally!


    BTW Rohene's hair is.... how do I say this. Like Rihanna :p
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :lol: Would love to see that up close and personal. :) Is Rohene skating in shows in Europe now?

    smarts1, not sure about 2loop, 3loop, but Lipinski of course made famous the 3loop, 3loop.
  15. Casey2

    Casey2 Member

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    Jill Trenary did a single axel into a double jump (off the landing foot); can't remember the second jump. I second the motion for rewarding innovative jump combos.
  16. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Yup. During competition season he does shows, and in the off-season he works as a choreographer, at least afaik.
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Up thread it is noted in my edited first post: Jill did a one-foot axel into a 3-salchow
  18. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean her layover back sit? I thought the goal of any sit spin was to hit a shoot the duck position. I may be misunderstanding your post though...
    I've always liked the triple flip after the half loop (triple lutz half loop triple flip). Anyone on ice doing a double loop that lands on the inside back edge of the other foot yet? (half loop with an extra rotation in it). How would it be judged? It's obviously harder than a half loop but what would happen in a three jump combo?
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    She did a one foot axel (landing on the same leg) into a triple salchow.
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think she invented that. Skaters have been doing sit spin in a shoot the duck position for a while. Paul Wylie used to do a great one.

    Another jump combination- I don't know if this has been mentioned yet- Plushenko used to do a triple axel-half loop-triple flip, which is insanely difficult.
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  21. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I'd forgotten how incredible Rohene is! Always felt he was (and still is) one of the biggest talents--EVER--in FS. He's so special. Thanks for posting these.
  22. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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  23. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see a 1 foot double salchow into 3flip or 3salchow.

    I think that the code change recognizing 1/2 loops as single loops applies to other one foot jumps as well.
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Kristina Czako also did it in 1993.

    Florent Amodio is trying a 3Lz/half-loop/3Sal this season.
  25. delayedaxel

    delayedaxel New Member

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    Lovely!

    Now I'm wondering why skaters don't include delayed axels at least in their exhibitions nowadays :cool:
  26. Sk8swan

    Sk8swan Well-Known Member

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    Another unusual jump combo (not sure it can be defined "inspirational") was Kielmann(?)'s endless loop-2loops combo. I guess she brought it in from her roller skating heritage.
  27. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    If I read the CoP rules correctly, only the first three jumps in that pass, like in This Long Porgram from Marina Kielmann at the 1993 World Championships would count, though perhaps one could argue that a combination like this helps with components as well....

    There is no incentive anymore to do double-triple combinations because CoP doesn't factor in order of elements when calculating base values.

    Therefore, 3 loop - 2 loop base value = 2 loop - 3 loop base value (which is IMO crazy, IMO)
  28. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

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    Adam Rippon already has done this combination at Skate Canada
  29. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    In addition to Chan, Amodio and Rippon, Brandon Mroz, Max Aaron and Alex Johnson also have 3Lz-half loop-3S combos planned in their FS (so it's not just a Colorado Springs fad ;)). Many skaters have added it to their repertoire recently because it's a considered a combination jump this season (receiving the full base value of both triples) and not a sequence.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    How are you defining "shoot the duck position"? I think that was the original basis of the sitspin. I've seen a picture of Axel Paulsen in that position (no, it's not online). Not sure how low Jackson Haines got when he invented the spin. But anyway I think it's been around since the 19th century.

    My understanding (I'll defer to any technical panel experts if I'm wrong) is that a combination with six jumps like that would get no credit at all because the current rules only allow combinations with two or three jumps (only one of the latter per program).

    If there were any nonlisted jumps or changes of foot in the middle, then it would be a jump sequence and only (80% value of) the two highest value jumps would count. So it would be worth 80% as much as double axel-double loop combo.

    There has to be a better way to reward jump sequences appropriately without allowing skaters to pack their programs with lots of extra points compared to skaters who don't do jump sequences.

    Which is why I think there should be a bonus multiplier for the second (or third) jump in a true combination. That would also encourage combos like one-foot axel-triple salchow, which would then become more valuable than triple salchow-double toe, as well it should be.

    Would you settle for one-foot triple salchow (with touchdown) into double flip?

    Actually, it was always permitted to land any jump on the opposite foot and have it count the same as the regular jump with that takeoff and that number of revolutions. Depending whether it looked intentional or not would affect the GOE. Single loop with opposite foot landing (i.e., half-loop) was explicitly an exception -- until the most recent change, when it is now explicitly included in that principle as a single loop, but only when it's part of a jump combo or sequence. It's still considered a nonlisted jump that doesn't waste a jump slot on a lousy single loop if it occurs in isolation.
  31. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Especially the one where they fully extend their free leg (not in a tuck position) at the height of the jump.

    I remember seeing Fadeev doing twizzles in a sit spin position - it was in one of the Ice Wars - his Mephistopheles program. I tried to get my then-coach to teach it to me, but we couldn't figure out how he did it!
  32. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I kind of had a brain fart when I wrote that, lol. I meant that one she does in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MYJm-snH0Q The very last sit spin variation.
  33. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I've never seen it done. It would count as a double loop (and would have before last year's rule changes as well), although I think it would be more difficult.
  34. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    gkelly!!! that made my day! you are the fount of all knowledge ;)

    Seerek - you're right that there's no incentive to do 2-3 combinations, but I think if a skater is working towards a 3-3, the 2-3 makes a lot of sense to try in competition.

    Kristi Y. used to do a 2f3t combo towards the end of her program. I think it helped her learn her 3-3.
  35. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Back in the 1990s I noticed that a number of Richard Callaghan's students used to do 2T+3T on occasion. I figured that was the reasoning (working up to 3-3).
  36. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Many others did it. Or at least Surya Bonaly used to do 2Toe/3Toe in the SP instead of 3Lutz/2Toe.
  37. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    It's not a delayed axel but I remember Carolina Kostner doing a single axel in an exhibition where she kept her arms out instead of bringing them in.

    Here it is at around 2min33 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGV5nV_h1ho
  38. kukkura

    kukkura Member

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    I think there were several women in the 6.0 era who had 2a-half loop-3s in their LP after Midori Ito did it in 1988. I know Alisa Drei did it a few times.
  39. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's a very pretty move by Carolina, right toward the end of the performance. Boy, she had so much talent (and the politics behind her, coming from Italy) and she was being set up for 2006 Olympics. Somehow, the pressure placed on her shoulders was too great, unsurprisingly, because what she lacked was the experience of excelling under pressure, plus she was still developing as a skater and needed more time to find her unique on-ice identity. Maybe she can pull it altogether this season. Maybe Alissa can as well. It will be interesting to see.
  40. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I hope Carolina hangs on through Sochi and puts down two skates she can be proud of. Never been a huge fan of hers, but loved her programs last year. And I would so much rather see almost clean, well developed PROGRAMS, than 4:10 of telegraphed lutzes, flutzes, flips and lips.

    Oops - thread drift!

    OK...in Michelle's Taj Mahal program, she did a single salchow at some point as part of her choreography. If she were to skate this exact same program under COP, would that count as a jumping pass? Would it matter whether or not she'd included it in her planned program turned in prior to skating? I always loved, well, the whole program, but that little move was one of the things that made it special.