U.S. Team Envelope / International Selection Pool (ISP) skaters & updates for 2012-13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 8, 2012.

  1. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    I think the team envelopes just have to do with USFSA funding, not selection for a grand prix event. Grand prix selection is convoluted but I think basically based on world rankings and host picks. So Johnny and Evan could get Skate America based on a host pick.
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Aside from host picks, team envelopes are separate from Grand Prix choices, and as far as I know, USFS has no written justification or criteria for selecting host picks, although over the years there has been speculation that they offer the National Champions a shot at Skate America. (Theoretically, a skater should be on the "International Assignments List" to get a GP host pick, but that list is fluid.) Grand Prix selection is based on:
    • Placement in the Top 12 at last year's World Championships
    • Having a Top 24 Season's Best (SB) and/or World Standing (WS) at the end of last season
    • Using a one-time "come-back" option, based on at least one Top 6 finish at a World Championship before last season
    • Medalists from last year's Jr. World Championships or JGPF who plan to skate in the Senior GP (not guaranteed)
    • Top 75 SB (not guaranteed)

    Team Envelope criteria coincide with some of these, but not all, although, practically speaking, those in Envelope A and most in B should meet the GP criteria for, at least, consideration (Top 75 SB).

    Assuming the same rules as last year:

    As long USFS submitted their names by the deadline and an assurance to the ISU that they were back to competition, both Weir-Voronov and Lysacek can use their one-time option as "come-back" (formerly seeded) skaters to get two GP events in the initial selection. (Lysacek didn't have to take his last season, because he was still ranked 18th in WS and was guaranteed one and was assigned two in the initial GP selection.)

    The only way I can make sense of the GP Announcement is that they can also skip/save the option for next season as a contingency for the Olympic year and, instead, be at the top of alternates list as "come-back" skaters. ("Come-back" skaters aren't defined in the "Replacements" section [7.6] or explicitly limited to those who already used the one-time option.)

    Mroz is 42nd on the SB list, and, theoretically, could be a Top 75 initial pick, but that's not very likely: aside from host picks, there was only one last season in the initial selection (Menshov), and one alternate pick (Majorov, but he was ranked 15th in WS).

    All three could be initial host picks (including if they use the "come back" or host pick replacements, including "TBD" replacements. If the former, they have to have a GP minimum from the last two season, which Mroz should have from Rostelecom 2011, and which Lysacek and Weir-Voronov would have to earn in one of the approved Senior B/International events before their first scheduled GP. If a host pick replacement, either wouldn't have to post a GP minimum score.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  3. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt Mroz will get a GP this season, I think a bunch of other skaters would be in line to get a 2nd event before he gets a first. Keep in mind that Jeremy Abbott is the ONLY US man guaranteed 2 GP events in the coming season, Adam wasn't top 12 at Worlds and Ross didn't get to Worlds so they only have 1 event each for sure, along with Ricky, and Josh and Jason if they move up.

    Armin doesn't have any events guaranteed but is more likely to be considered for a host spot over Mroz due to his better result at Nationals, the same is true for Razzano. And actually, Mroz's scores on the GP were so abysmal that Armin and Doug, who didn't have good GP seasons either, still scored higher at their events than Mroz did at either of his. Even someone like Carriere, Aaron, or Messing would likely be given a host pick over Mroz just considering recent results. Of course the host spot could be given to someone in the Adam-Ross-Ricky-Josh*-Jason* (*provided they move up, i haven't heard one way or another what either boy plans to do yet) should they not get 2 events right away.

    So it's hard to tell what will happen. I would think Ross and Adam have a good shot at getting 2 events right away, and the odds for Josh and Jason to get 2 events is probably also pretty good, but we don't know if they are moving up yet. Ricky I would think would only get 1 event, unless of course we have the situation where one or both of Josh and Jason stay on the JGP for next season, in which case he could get 2 and the host spot at SA could open up for one of the other guys, likely from those I mentioned in the last paragraph. What are the odds for Armin getting an assignment that isn't a host spot? I know he has no realistic shot at 2 assignments unless one is a host pick, but even though he's not on the top 24 SB or WS list, could he maybe still get one invite?
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Mahbanoozadeh could get a non-host assignment in the initial selection, but his odds aren't that much better than Mroz's, since he's all of one place (41 vs. 42) on the SB list, and his SB score (at NHK) was all of .09 above Mroz's SB (at Rostelecom). Below 24, WS doesn't count for much.

    USFS may decide to lobby/deal for a spot for Mahbanoozadeh, because they skipped him for 4C's. If they're going to lobby/deal for a skater not already guaranteed one, I would rather see them do it for Razzano, who is 38 on the SB list and whose SB list was 7+ points above Mahbahnoozadeh and Mroz, two skaters with more international experience and more opportunities over the years.
     
  5. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    If a spot is available, I've a feeling USFS will lobby for Armin over Razzano and Mroz because 1) Armin is a US nationals medalist 2) USFS usually makes up to skaters (that's just my impression and not any expert opinion).

    But then USFS may well decide heck witht he current men and give the combackers one more shot (if they don't have 2 gps).

    I don't see USFS having spots to play with in the first place, given how even Adam may not get a second GP
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    2 new pairs have been added to USFS' International Selection Pool: http://www.usfsa.org/Athletes.asp?id=447

    Lindsay Davis & Mark Ladwig
    Caitlin Yankowskas & Joshua Reagan

    ETA: Charlotte Lichtman & Dean Copely were removed from the original ISP list following the 4/27/12 official press release announcing their split.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Last season, US had the following spots:

    Rippon guaranteed (2)
    Abbott guaranteed (1), received (2)
    Dornbush guaranteed (2)
    Miner guaranteed (2)
    Bradley guaranteed (1) but retired
    Mahbahnoozadeh guaranteed (1), got a second host TBD
    Third host spot: (1)

    Total: guaranteed/host 10, received/used 11, distributed among seven skaters


    US has the following guaranteed spots this season:

    Abbott (2)
    Miner (1)
    Rippon (1)
    Brown (1) -- if he takes it
    Farris (1) -- if he takes it
    Dornbush (1)
    Other host spots* (2)

    Total: guaranteed, 9, taken TBD, distributed among six-eight skaters, not necessarily including Lysacek and Weir-Voronov.

    *Assuming that Abbott will have a choice of Skate America, there are two host spots left.

    Lysacek and Weir could get two anywhere if they invoke the "come-back" clause. They could each get an initial host pick, whether or not they invoke the "come-back" clause. They could each get a TBD host pick or get one from the alternates list (at the top as "come-back" skaters).
     
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Thx for the analysis, Kwanfan!
    Abbott doesnt ever get skam though :(
     
  9. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    Abbott is a 3 time US Sr Champ, 1 time Jr Champ and has never been invited to Skate America yet. Lysacek got SA last year (then didn't skate)

    Why break the trend and invite Abbott this year?
     
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You're both right, and now that Abbott is the only US skater guaranteed two, strategically it would better to hoard the spot distribute the wealth and let two other Feds choose him, especially since he has the potential to be formidable no matter where he goes, not your average 10-12 skater that you can slot in for 4th or 5th and hope for the best field for your own skaters.
     
  11. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Abbott doesn't want Skate America. Does anyone know if he has turned it down in the past? Also, how are there two host picks? I thought two of the US men at SA were decided based on the selection criteria and only the 3rd was a host pick.
     
  12. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    IMO, Abbott, Rippon, and Weir should go to SA. :p
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Federations are only required to select its own skaters from the 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12, Top 24 SB, and Top 24 WS buckets if they have no other choice when it's time to make their selection, and if they are randomly drawn to select first or second, they would never have to select a 1-12 (guaranteed two) from their own country.

    This year, there is only one skater from the US who is guaranteed two -- Abbott -- and depending on when USFS picks, they could choose Ten (7) or Fernandez (9) from the 7-9 bucket instead of Abbott (8). Assuming Brown and Farris go senior, they only have to choose Brown, Farris, Rippon, or Miner from the Top 24 SB if no other Feds did or Dornbush from the Top 24 WS if no other Fed did (and since there are only four in this category, USFS might not have to choose one at all.)
     
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  14. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I remember Abbott saying he wanted SA before
     
  15. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    Yeah, he seemed pretty bummed out last year on twitter that he didn't get it.

    It would be nice for them to feature the national champ at home. They want to, y'know, bring people into SA, so that would be a good place to start. Inviting Johnny would be next ;)
     
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  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Each host federation gets three host picks, subject to the selection criteria, though this past season these host picks were in the first instance supposed to meet the selection criteria by being in the Top 75 on the Season's Best List.
     
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  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    That's the reason for some of the TBD's, because subs don't need to fulfill the criteria. It's a useless rule, since the workaround is so obvious to void it.

    The only skater that USFS needs to grab in the first selection is Abbott if they want him, because if they don't select him as a host pick, other Federations are required to give him two spots. Any other host spots can be left at TBDs, because then USFS can give one the guaranteed skaters a second, or pretty much any other US skater a first.
     
  18. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Lol. If they move to senior, I hope Farris and Brown get SA. USFS needs to show them off, I'm sorry but the current senior US men haven't been too impressive this season.

    I admire Miner's consistency, and Abbott when he's
    "on" is stunning, but unfortunately, Abbott's been "off" far more than "on" this past season, and when he's "off", he's hardly better than any of the others. Ross if he can start trying a quad in competition will hold my attention more, but I honestly don't want to see Rippon on another World team unless he can get his 3a consistent and get his quad attempts closer. Someone with an unreliable 3a and a "quad" that is always 3.5 revolutions with a fall or 2ft shouldn't really be representing the US at Worlds IMO. I like Dornbush and he has a good 3a and had pretty good success with his 4t this season, but he was a mess in at least one program pretty much all season.

    Farris has the potential to overtake all of these guys (save an "on" Abbott) as early as this coming season if he can consistently skate like he did at JW, and if he adds the 4t to his FS like it seems is his plan, that will just help increase his odds of doing so. The same is true for Brown if he can get that 3a and start doing 2 of them in his FS. After 2014, these 2 along with Nathan Chen most likely, are probably the best bets to be the top US men going into the next Olympic cycle, and there's even a chance that Farris, and maybe even Brown, could make the 2014 team, particularly if we can get 3 spots.

    The USFS needs to be smart about who goes to Worlds next year because we really want the 3 spots for the Olympics. So if Farris and Brown move up, I say give them SA, make sure they get 2 assignments and exposure, because unless some of these other guys get it together and fast, one of these two might be a wiser choice to send to Worlds to increase the odds of getting 3 spots. At this point, on paper, looking at international scores and individual skills, Farris, IMO, is the logical 2nd member of the World team. Of course this can change if:
    - Miner continues his build, starts trying a quad, and has reasonable success with it
    - Dornbush bounces back and can start performing consistently again with his 3a and 4t
    - Rippon has a serious overhaul on his 3a technique, can get that jump consistent, and can start rotating his 4s
    - Brown gets his 3a and gets it consistent enough to do it in the SP and 2 in his FS
    - Farris doesn't start trying the 4t in competition and/or has major issues with it, and is unable to regain his JW form
    - Mahbanoozadeh manages to get an international assignment, puts out his 4t with some success, and posts PCS marks significantly improved from his usual
    - Weir and/or Lysacek makes a convincing comeback (at more than one competition)
    - Aaron/Messing/Mroz/Razzano skates a blinder at Nationals with quads

    So a lot of things can happen. I just hope the USFS realizes after what happened this year that they shouldn't hold up Rippon at Nats to make sure he gets to Worlds because at this point he's not really even a top 10 contender until he gets his jump issues worked out.
     
  19. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    How much funding are the skaters given?
     
  20. vexlak

    vexlak Member

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    I asked the same question twice. with no asnwer, I only assumed that it must a big secret...
     
  21. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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  22. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe people just don't know.
     
  23. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    First prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired. :sekret:
     
  24. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    Fired? :wuzrobbed I remember the good old days when third place was at least a can of SPAM. :p

    If I remember correctly, during skating's "hey day" Team A got something like $25k - $30k (split if a pairs or dance team) in funding. I'm sure than number has decreased considerably since 2006. :shuffle: I also seem to recall that a lot of "A" team members (Kwan, Cohen, Hughes, etc.) often returned the money to the fund because they were making decent money with Champions on Ice.
     
  25. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I think I remember reading a few years back that A-tier funding was 15k. I'm not sure of the others, or if that's still the case.
     
  26. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Nm

    There was a discussion on the same topic with mention of $$$ posted a couple years ago if youwant a rough idea...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    [Note: jlai has since edited the post above, so I will edit mine as well.]

    $15,000 sounds about right as an estimate. From around the same time period, Team B singles skaters received ~ $10,000 and Team C ~$5,000. I do not know if these amounts are still comparable today.

    Tiers 1 and 2 are still referenced in the "Additional Considerations" section of the published 2012-13 envelope criteria; they just aren't listed separately on the USFS site anymore.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  28. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Love Jason Brown, but I hope USFSA waits until seeing the results of some of the big summer competitions before deciding on the full S.A. lineup -- I'm hoping he shows up with a triple axel in both programs.
     
  29. vexlak

    vexlak Member

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    I guess I should modify my original question.
    Does the USFSA pay for their coaching, equipment, doctors etc on top of the fund money? I am curious to compare the funding for the US team compares to other federations. If the $25k received should cover the ice time, equipment, coaching choreographer, costumes and all other expense affiliated with top level skating, the amount would not cover it. Am I wrong on this?
     
  30. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Skateweb once posted the team envelope funding info for 2000 which is ages ago. Given that funding was $15000 back 12 years ago for team A singles (10000 for team b and 5000 for c) and the numbers being tossed around since have not changed that much (though things have gotten expensive), I doubt the actual amount of team funding will be significantly different from last year though I can be wrong.

    Eta didnt realize in 1999 team A only got 6000...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012