U.S. Team Envelope / International Selection Pool (ISP) skaters & updates for 2012-13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 8, 2012.

  1. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Abbott doesn't want Skate America. Does anyone know if he has turned it down in the past? Also, how are there two host picks? I thought two of the US men at SA were decided based on the selection criteria and only the 3rd was a host pick.
  2. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    IMO, Abbott, Rippon, and Weir should go to SA. :p
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Federations are only required to select its own skaters from the 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12, Top 24 SB, and Top 24 WS buckets if they have no other choice when it's time to make their selection, and if they are randomly drawn to select first or second, they would never have to select a 1-12 (guaranteed two) from their own country.

    This year, there is only one skater from the US who is guaranteed two -- Abbott -- and depending on when USFS picks, they could choose Ten (7) or Fernandez (9) from the 7-9 bucket instead of Abbott (8). Assuming Brown and Farris go senior, they only have to choose Brown, Farris, Rippon, or Miner from the Top 24 SB if no other Feds did or Dornbush from the Top 24 WS if no other Fed did (and since there are only four in this category, USFS might not have to choose one at all.)
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  4. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I remember Abbott saying he wanted SA before
  5. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    Yeah, he seemed pretty bummed out last year on twitter that he didn't get it.

    It would be nice for them to feature the national champ at home. They want to, y'know, bring people into SA, so that would be a good place to start. Inviting Johnny would be next ;)
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Each host federation gets three host picks, subject to the selection criteria, though this past season these host picks were in the first instance supposed to meet the selection criteria by being in the Top 75 on the Season's Best List.
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    That's the reason for some of the TBD's, because subs don't need to fulfill the criteria. It's a useless rule, since the workaround is so obvious to void it.

    The only skater that USFS needs to grab in the first selection is Abbott if they want him, because if they don't select him as a host pick, other Federations are required to give him two spots. Any other host spots can be left at TBDs, because then USFS can give one the guaranteed skaters a second, or pretty much any other US skater a first.
  8. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Lol. If they move to senior, I hope Farris and Brown get SA. USFS needs to show them off, I'm sorry but the current senior US men haven't been too impressive this season.

    I admire Miner's consistency, and Abbott when he's
    "on" is stunning, but unfortunately, Abbott's been "off" far more than "on" this past season, and when he's "off", he's hardly better than any of the others. Ross if he can start trying a quad in competition will hold my attention more, but I honestly don't want to see Rippon on another World team unless he can get his 3a consistent and get his quad attempts closer. Someone with an unreliable 3a and a "quad" that is always 3.5 revolutions with a fall or 2ft shouldn't really be representing the US at Worlds IMO. I like Dornbush and he has a good 3a and had pretty good success with his 4t this season, but he was a mess in at least one program pretty much all season.

    Farris has the potential to overtake all of these guys (save an "on" Abbott) as early as this coming season if he can consistently skate like he did at JW, and if he adds the 4t to his FS like it seems is his plan, that will just help increase his odds of doing so. The same is true for Brown if he can get that 3a and start doing 2 of them in his FS. After 2014, these 2 along with Nathan Chen most likely, are probably the best bets to be the top US men going into the next Olympic cycle, and there's even a chance that Farris, and maybe even Brown, could make the 2014 team, particularly if we can get 3 spots.

    The USFS needs to be smart about who goes to Worlds next year because we really want the 3 spots for the Olympics. So if Farris and Brown move up, I say give them SA, make sure they get 2 assignments and exposure, because unless some of these other guys get it together and fast, one of these two might be a wiser choice to send to Worlds to increase the odds of getting 3 spots. At this point, on paper, looking at international scores and individual skills, Farris, IMO, is the logical 2nd member of the World team. Of course this can change if:
    - Miner continues his build, starts trying a quad, and has reasonable success with it
    - Dornbush bounces back and can start performing consistently again with his 3a and 4t
    - Rippon has a serious overhaul on his 3a technique, can get that jump consistent, and can start rotating his 4s
    - Brown gets his 3a and gets it consistent enough to do it in the SP and 2 in his FS
    - Farris doesn't start trying the 4t in competition and/or has major issues with it, and is unable to regain his JW form
    - Mahbanoozadeh manages to get an international assignment, puts out his 4t with some success, and posts PCS marks significantly improved from his usual
    - Weir and/or Lysacek makes a convincing comeback (at more than one competition)
    - Aaron/Messing/Mroz/Razzano skates a blinder at Nationals with quads

    So a lot of things can happen. I just hope the USFS realizes after what happened this year that they shouldn't hold up Rippon at Nats to make sure he gets to Worlds because at this point he's not really even a top 10 contender until he gets his jump issues worked out.
  9. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    How much funding are the skaters given?
  10. vexlak

    vexlak New Member

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    I asked the same question twice. with no asnwer, I only assumed that it must a big secret...
  11. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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  12. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe people just don't know.
  13. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    First prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired. :sekret:
  14. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Fired? :wuzrobbed I remember the good old days when third place was at least a can of SPAM. :p

    If I remember correctly, during skating's "hey day" Team A got something like $25k - $30k (split if a pairs or dance team) in funding. I'm sure than number has decreased considerably since 2006. :shuffle: I also seem to recall that a lot of "A" team members (Kwan, Cohen, Hughes, etc.) often returned the money to the fund because they were making decent money with Champions on Ice.
  15. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I think I remember reading a few years back that A-tier funding was 15k. I'm not sure of the others, or if that's still the case.
  16. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Nm

    There was a discussion on the same topic with mention of $$$ posted a couple years ago if youwant a rough idea...
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    [Note: jlai has since edited the post above, so I will edit mine as well.]

    $15,000 sounds about right as an estimate. From around the same time period, Team B singles skaters received ~ $10,000 and Team C ~$5,000. I do not know if these amounts are still comparable today.

    Tiers 1 and 2 are still referenced in the "Additional Considerations" section of the published 2012-13 envelope criteria; they just aren't listed separately on the USFS site anymore.
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  18. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Love Jason Brown, but I hope USFSA waits until seeing the results of some of the big summer competitions before deciding on the full S.A. lineup -- I'm hoping he shows up with a triple axel in both programs.
  19. vexlak

    vexlak New Member

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    I guess I should modify my original question.
    Does the USFSA pay for their coaching, equipment, doctors etc on top of the fund money? I am curious to compare the funding for the US team compares to other federations. If the $25k received should cover the ice time, equipment, coaching choreographer, costumes and all other expense affiliated with top level skating, the amount would not cover it. Am I wrong on this?
  20. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Skateweb once posted the team envelope funding info for 2000 which is ages ago. Given that funding was $15000 back 12 years ago for team A singles (10000 for team b and 5000 for c) and the numbers being tossed around since have not changed that much (though things have gotten expensive), I doubt the actual amount of team funding will be significantly different from last year though I can be wrong.

    Eta didnt realize in 1999 team A only got 6000...
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    No. ETA: They do have performance camps, but I'm not sure what is covered, aside from presentations.

    That depends entirely on the federation. Some cover everything for elite athletes, and most cover almost nothing.

    At the level at which the senior singles skaters need to be in order to qualify for this kind of funding, the answer is no, unless at least one of the parents is the coach with a rink deal for ice time, the costumes are borrowed, second-hand, or designed and made by a parent or relative or "angel", even if lots of his/her coaches' students are at the same international competitions together, covering the same lost coaching wages and travel expenses, the skater doesn't travel with any family members for competitions,and the skater doesn't have to/doesn't do any summer or monitoring competitions or Senior B's, and then maybe/possibly/probably not. Not everyone spends $150K+/year like Chan, but even so, it's unlikely that either Wagner or Abbott (see below) made enough from envelope money and competition earnings to cover their costs.

    At the level at which the skaters have qualified for the envelopes, seniors would have made some prize money, some of which would be spent on coaches' competition expenses and lost wages. For example, from Envelope A:

    Ashley Wagner (All criteria but medalist at GPF)
    Skate Canada (3): $9K
    NHK (4): $3K
    Four Continents (1): $15K
    World Championships (4): $13K
    World Team Trophy (3): a cut of $170K, (I'm not sure how it's divvied up among singles and teams and if placement has anything to do with it.)

    Total international earnings: $40K plus a cut of WTT prize money net of additional incremental expenses for international competitions, plus exhibition fees for SC and maybe NHK, 4C's, WC's. (For GP, this was $200.)

    Jeremy Abbott (National Champion and Top 10 at 2012 Worlds)
    Cup of China (1): $18K
    Rostelecom (3): $9K
    GPF (5): $4K
    World Championships (8): $5K
    World Team Trophy (5): a cut of $170K

    Total international earnings: $36K plust a cut of WTT prize money..., plus exhibition fees for 2 GPs.

    However, all of this doesn't begin to cover the hundreds of thousands of dollars skaters and families have invested before they get a dime in return.
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  22. vexlak

    vexlak New Member

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    Thank you.
    Now it's clear why a Olympic winner participates in dance TV show instead of promoting figure skating.
  23. missing

    missing Well-Known Member

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    Do Junior Grand Prix medalists get any prize money?

    Is there prize money for the Senior B competition medalists?

    And do the biggest name skaters get money for competing at Grand Prix events?
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  25. Impromptu

    Impromptu Well-Known Member

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    Since we don't even know if Jason Brown intends to skate junior or senior internationally next year, it's probably premature to talk about Skate America.

    And IIRC, the USFSA usually puts 2 of the 3 home skater slots as "TBA" until the Fall (although more likely they'd be waiting to hear from Lysacek or Weir, not waiting for summer competitions).
  26. AnnMJensen

    AnnMJensen New Member

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    My understanding is there are.have been "appearance fees" given
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    AnnMJensen, I've re-posted your reply in the new thread since it's relevant there: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3567928#post3567928

    ETA some age trivia: The youngest of the 2012-13 team envelope athletes is 11-year-old Novice men's champ Vincent Zhou (born Oct. 2000) while the oldest is Jeremy Abbott, who will turn 27 in June.
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  28. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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    Caitlin Belt & Michael Johnson and Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker have been added to the ISP
  29. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    Olson/Hubbell also were added.
  30. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    :cheer: I can't wait to see Hawayek/Baker in action!
  31. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    As was noted in another thread recently, the new Senior pair team of Alexa Scimeca and Christopher Knierim have also been added to the ISP.

    Coaching changes of team envelope and/or ISP skaters in the off-season:
    Mirai Nagasu: Wendy Olson
    Christina Gao: Mark Mitchell and Peter Johansson at the Skating Club of Boston (she is planning to start her freshman year at Harvard this fall)
    Courtney Hicks: Scott Wendland (as listed in her updated ISU bio)
    Leah Keiser: John Nicks
    Nathan Chen: Rafael Arutyunyan (relocated to Lake Arrowhead, CA after Nationals)
    Kiri Baga: Cindy Caprel in Chicago for singles; she is also skating pairs there
    Grant Hochstein: Peter Oppegard and Karen Kwan
    Shotaro Omori: Tammy Gambill
    Holly Moore & Daniel Klaber: Pasquale Camerlengo, Angelika Krylova, Massimo Scali, Liz Swallow, Natalia Deller (relocated to Detroit SC full-time after Nationals)

    ETA that Jordan Moeller -- 2011 Novice Men's silver medalist who placed 5th in Junior at Midwestern Sectionals last season and placed 3rd in Junior (161.02 total) at the Glacier Falls competition earlier this month -- was added to the ISP as of August 14.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  32. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Bumping this thread up for a 2012-13 Team Funding Envelope Additional Considerations update:

    Any athlete(s) who medal in the Junior or Senior levels at a spring international will be awarded ASUPP funding equal to 10% of the total amount of Team C - Tier 2 funding of the current season.

    This applies to the following 2013 Challenge Cup (Feb. 21-24 in The Hague, Netherlands) Senior level U.S. entries: Alexander Johnson, Brandon Mroz, Tarah Kayne/Daniel O'Shea, Kiri Baga/Taylor Toth, DeeDee Leng/Timothy LeDuc (ETA: everyone should be added to the 2012-13 Reserve Team envelope for being named to this competition).

    Spring Developmental International: TBA

    Any athlete(s) who is selected to the World Junior Team, that is not in the current season's envelope structure, will be placed in Team C - Tier 1 and receive the final installment of funding for the current season.
    This applies to 2 members of the 2013 World Junior Team: Shotaro Omori (already in the 2012-13 Reserve Team envelope due to his 2 JGPs) & Yasmin Siraj (ETA: She should be added to the 2012-13 Reserve Team envelope for being named to this competition).

    I've compiled an UNOFFICIAL list of the projected U.S. Team A, B, and C envelope skaters/teams for the 2013-14 season based on the published criteria (with Junior Worlds and Worlds to go) in my blog: http://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/...envelopes-unofficial-compilation-in-progress/
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013