U.S. Team Envelope criteria revised for 2014-15 season + ISP updates

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    http://www.usfsa.org/Athletes.asp?id=350

    Revisions include:

    TEAM B - TIER 2
    Placements 4th - 6th at the 2014 Four Continents Championships

    TEAM C - TIER 1
    2014 U.S. Junior Champion

    TEAM C - TIER 2
    Placements 8th in the senior events at the 2014 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
    Placements 2nd - 3rd in the junior events at the 2014 U.S. Figure Skating Championships

    A new "Team D" (Developmental) envelope has been added below C:
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  2. k6267

    k6267 New Member

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    Any idea why Junior 4 & 5, and Novice 1-3 got dropped from Envelope C to Envelope Developmental, and how that will affect funding?
  3. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    I suspect "Developmental" funding will see some funding but obviously less than the C envelope. USFS is operating on a shoe string budget, and quite frankly, has done little to bring in the funds to support their athletes. They especially depend on the USOC to support the A envelope athletes. They need to market the sport, go after more corporate sponsors. Think outside the box, or make that, think outside the rink. But, this is an old topic. :-(
  4. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    How much do these athletes get anyways? Is this public information?
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Based on my application of the criteria linked from post #1...

    TEAM A - TIER 1
    Abbott, Gold; Castelli/Shnapir; Davis/White, Chock/Bates.

    TEAM A - TIER 2
    Brown, Aaron;
    Edmunds, Wagner;
    Shibutani/Shibutani, Hubbell/Donohue.

    TEAM B - TIER 1
    Farris;
    Nagasu;
    Zhang/Bartholomay, Denney/Coughlin, Scimeca/Knierim, Kayne/O'Shea;
    Aldridge/Eaton.

    TEAM B - TIER 2
    Dornbush, Rippon;
    Cesario, Hicks;
    Denney/Frazier, Donlan/Speroff;
    Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt, Cannuscio/McManus, Hawayek/Baker.

    TEAM C - TIER 1
    Razzano, Miner, N. Chen;
    Long, Glenn, K. Chen;
    Leng/LeDuc, Aaron/Settlage;
    McNamara/Carpenter.

    TEAM C - TIER 2
    Carriere, Moeller, Ma, Omori;
    Gao, Cain, Bell, Baga, Wang, Pierce, Shin;
    Calalang/Sidhu, Liu/Perini, Pearce/Pacini, Budd/Cheban (both are listed on icepartnersearch.com), Takai/Johnson;
    Olson/Lorello, Parsons/Parsons, Moore/Klaber.

    TEAM D - TIER 1
    Belmontes, Vrdoljak, Shum;
    Tennell, Taylor, Lin;
    Middleton/Evans (she is listed on icepartnersearch.com), de la Mora/Wilson, Oltmanns/Santillan;
    Pogrebinsky/Gudis, Lewis/Bye.

    TEAM D - TIER 1 (USFS site says Tier 1, not 2)
    Borromeo, Sjoberg, West;
    Le, Rydberg, Peng;
    Setoyama/Botero, Gillett/Fernandez, Lee/Hennings;
    Becker/Becker, Gropman/Somerville, Feng/Ponomarenko.

    This UNOFFICIAL compilation does not include retirements and/or splits that are not yet official or publicly announced.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  6. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Active Member

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    I know these are only projections right now. But if someone in Envelope A retires (say, Abbott or D/W), would someone from Envelope B automatically move up to A, or no?
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  9. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Missing from ISP: Baga, Siraj, C. Zhang. I assumed this means they've retired.
    Also don't see Alexander Johnson. :(
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Skaters still can be added to the ISP after being monitored.

    Johnson did not compete at 2014 Nationals due to injury but is training, I believe (ETA: he tweeted a video clip of himself landing a 3A on his "road to recovery" in March).

    Siraj and C. Zhang placed below 15th at Nationals (doesn't mean either has retired). Baga placed 14th at Nationals and is eligible for the C2 team envelope due to her silver medal at Coupe de Nice last fall, so I'm not sure why she wasn't listed in the ISP.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  11. JSB

    JSB New Member

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    In Ice Dance, the Beckers are not listed either. Are they staying Novice? Or have they quit?
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    She is 12 and still too young for the JGP.
  13. watchthis!!

    watchthis!! Active Member

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    :(
  14. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Active Member

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    I just noticed Christina Gao is down in level C, Tier 2, below Amber Glenn and Karen Chen. :-( Is that typical? I know she may not even continue, but still, not exactly encouraging.
  15. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    She finally broke the fifth place curse but with a lower placement :( Plus no medal at the grand prix
  16. lauren329

    lauren329 Member

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    Do we have any idea approximately how much $ is in these various envelopes? Just curious.
  17. redfiretrees

    redfiretrees Figure Skating Fan in the Tropics

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    I'm very curious too. I wonder if the Team A - Tier 1 money is enough to cover at least 50% of an elite skaters expenses for a season.
  18. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I would doubt it. If I remember correctly there was a time when the funding of the envelopes was a published figure (perhaps as far back as the Kwan/Cohen days), and I doubt it would have covered 50% even back then. And if I am not mistaken, funding decreased (or at least the way envelopes are funded) changed quite a bit post-Torino. Maybe Syliva, or some other well connected people can recall better then I do however?
  19. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Doubt if it covers more than about 20%.
  20. pairskatingfan

    pairskatingfan New Member

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    :wideeyes: how are skaters in team B and lower expected to want to continue to skate then?
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I posted the following in a U.S. team envelope thread 4 years ago:
    U.S. skaters/teams in the A and B envelopes normally qualify for additional USOC funding as well (I don't know the amounts).

    Skaters' annual training expenses can vary significantly depending on where and with whom they train. Some rinks might offer ice time discounts for skaters that place well at Nationals and/or Olympics/Worlds, for example, or for those who coach a certain number of hours/group classes at the rink.

    ETA that I started this thread back in May 2012 for general reference and info:
    Funding of international skaters: federation/gov't/private/other support & prize $$$
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  22. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Math time. So if a typical Team A single skater's expenses are running in the USD 75,000-80,000 per year--an amount I've often heard bandied about, funding of 18,000 would be about 22-25% of that. Assuming USFS is running even leaner than from 4-5 years ago, Team envelope amount provided this season could be lower. Percentage quibbling aside, it's obvious that it's not even close to the support needed to get the job done, though it is not insignificant either. Team B and below are hurting even more, as many of these skaters aren't yet in a position to have made enough splash to get commercial sponsorships, paid show appearances, or big competition prize money. It's really a tough financial row to hoe and current trajectory of skating in the US doesn't trend favorable.
  23. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    At least US skaters don't have to pay their own way to competitions like smaller fed skaters do.
  24. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Active Member

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    I think Jeremy Abbott said recently that his combined funding from both USFSA and U.S. Olympic Committee only covered about 50 percent of his expenses.
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Abbott was in the Team B Tier 1 envelope this season. ETA: I believe he elected to have the extra expense of having a trainer accompany him to his competitions as well.

    Right, but many coaches often charge their skaters for "lost lessons" and/or other extra expenses when they accompany them to internationals.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  26. dr.frog

    dr.frog Well-Known Member

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    FWIW, the parent of a JGP skater told me ~10 years ago that every international ended up costing them about $5000 extra in coaching and other expenses. I'm sure a big event like Worlds costs even more.
  27. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough, but how could it cost that much for a US skater? Travel, hotel, and meal expenses are covered (not sure about transportation to and from the airport). Unless a skater is traveling with multiple coaches and/or family members (which a lot of times they don't), or spending a lot of money on optional things like sightseeing/souvenirs/additional food&transportation (rental car/taxi, etc), how could it be costing them such a high number?
  28. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Active Member

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    See Sylvia's response above. Coaches charge the skater involved for the income they lose during competition, that is, the income they would have made teaching other skaters at home. Which makes sense from the coach's perspective. I'll bet there are lots of other expenses we're not aware of either. And you're taking your kid/yourself to a foreign country that you may never visit again, naturally you're going to want to sightsee a bit.
  29. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    International coaches likely do that as well. But the skater from those smaller feds also has to pay their airfare for themselves and their team.
    It is extremely expensive to be a US skater, but I really think skaters from other feds are much worse of. (And then others much better...)

    That's not a skating expense though.
  30. lauren329

    lauren329 Member

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    Also I find it interesting that USFS broke the A envelope into tiers (which I think they've moved away from in recent years) resulting in Jeremy, Chock/Bates and Castelli/Shnapir receiving better funding envelopes than Jason, Polina and Ashley.
  31. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    These costs make it all the more remarkable that the skaters always look so tiffed at international events. I can't even imagine the pressure on the parents to keep paying for things, especially the parents of 'normal' means.
  32. pairskatingfan

    pairskatingfan New Member

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    Some coaches do not charge for lost lessons from what I hear. Just doesn't make sense, the skaters train for competitions, why would they be charged exorbitant amounts for the competitions they're taking lessons for? I understand general expenses such as meals, and perhaps a charge to put them on, but to expect them to pay for every lesson lost is over the top, imo.
  33. dr.frog

    dr.frog Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in addition to the coaching fees, it costs money to look "tiffed" -- e.g., a lot of the skaters want to get new outfits to wear to the banquet and other official functions, and I've heard of cases where the USFSA has suggested that the skater get new practice clothes (or even a new competition costume). Plus the skaters probably want some spending money for souvenirs and incidental expenses.

    Re the coaching fees, from my discussion with both coaches and parents, I think in many/most cases the fees do *not* cover the coach's full expenses, especially when you consider the personal costs of being away from home (child care, etc) as well as lost income from their other students. Coaches are willing to subsidize their elite competitors in this way because it's good for their reputation and the publicity helps to bring in other students, but the ones who make more money are the ones who just stay home and coach a whole lot of lower-level skaters rather than the ones who are travelling all the time with elite competitors.
  34. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Not just at international events, but in their everyday (public) life. I've never seen so many high brands as I see on skaters in the photos they post on social media. I really feel less sympathy towards training expenses when I see someone in this sort of styling.


    I think it makes a bit of sense when competitions require coaches to be away for a week or more for a single skater. If we were talking some local competition (or even regionals) where every skater they coach is there, then it seems like cost of doing business. But to go with one skater, you lose A LOT of income when you think about the fact that many coaches have their days filled with lessons at $100 an hour or more.
  35. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The skaters from smaller federations, particularly in Europe, are able to compete more often, as they are able to sign up for events on their own; this allows lower-level skaters to get much more experience in international competition. (If they're Eurozone or GBP/Nordic currency skaters, their buying power is much greater at competitions in Eastern Europe.) That's one trade-off for having USFS or Skate Canada pay for transport for a limited number of mostly elite skaters (at their level) to attend a limited number of competitions.

    It depends on the Fed, and whether, for example, the coach is on salary, in which case lost wages wouldn't be an issue.
  36. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    How about skaters from Australia? It costs them a bundle to fly anywhere - so they can't do it that frequently AND their fed doesn't pay for it for them!
  37. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Does the Australian Fed prevent them from signing up at competitions and only allows them to compete if the Australian Fed assigns them? If not, that is the trade-off I described.

    Skaters from Australia (and New Zealand and southeast Asia) are screwed financially, unless they are training in the US, where transportation costs to Europe tends to be cheaper. Australia, New Zealand, and Philippines, though are a very small percentage of smaller Federations, most of which are concentrated in Europe.
  38. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think this costs more than the transportation does. (Assuming they are not just Americans representing another country)

    My point being: skating is insanely expensive, and USFS does not fund their athletes very highly; but there are federations where it is much worse.
  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Of course there are Federations where it is much worse: look at Michael Martinez. That doesn't negate that skaters from smaller Federations from Europe have lower travel costs in general to the many, many competitions in Europe and are not restricted by their Federations from competing.

    Also, the AUD is about $.94 to the USD. US skaters are paying 5% less of the substantial costs for training in the US, but they're still paying through the nose. To an Australian skater, though, USFS envelope and USOC money likely looks very generous. On the other hand, it's likely that US (or Canadian) elite athlete's early expense training in the US before he or she gets a dime of envelope money is a lot more expensive, because the competition is so steep. To be competitive at an early age and make it through the ranks in the US requires a lot of money not only for training, but also for the costumes, the tiffing, and the music required to show seriousness (and for USFS and Skate Canada to detect that they've got marks for parents who are going to be willing to foot the bill in the long-term at the amounts needed.)
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  40. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I can't see how the costs associated with one coach would approach $5000.

    Absolutely. But certain skaters/families are willing to spend money more freely than others on non-skating expenses like sightseeing. Sometimes there are ways to keep costs down, but not every skater wants to take them (for example, some will pay a taxi fare when others choose to walk, or some will buy a lot of additional food on a trip whereas others will bring some snacks from home). I just figure that if a skater is spending as much as $5000 on a JGP, then they must either have family members/additional people accompanying them on the trip, or they're not trying all that hard to keep non-skating related expenses down (sightseeing, souvenirs, etc). Trips can definitely get a lot more expensive when you aren't looking for little ways to save a bit of money.