U.S. Pairs 2014 - News and Updates, Part III

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Evora/Ladwig was a feel good story, having been together for so long and finally putting it together. That and let's face it John Baldwin wasn't the most popular around here. And Evora/Ladwig ended up as the top US finisher at the Olympics with the skates of their lives.
     
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  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks, Sylvia. That's exactly it. There's never been consistency regardless of the selection criteria. In any case, Evora/ Ladwig did themselves proud at the 2010 Olympics and were clearly underscored (due to politics, favoritism).

    All told, there's never been a great deal of consistency in the sport of figure skating judging or team selection by federations. In general, favoritism and always politics tends to factor in along with how well skaters perform. Hopefully, USFS will work on better clarity in their selection process, or they may as well stick with on-ice results and tweaking the scoring for the results they prefer as they have traditionally done. In any case, the sport as a whole has more serious problems that need to be resolved other than addressing fan disgruntlement over inconsistencies in particular fed policies governing team selection.

    I was pointing out that what you said above is a contradiction: "keeping them home until they prove themselves on the world stage." If you intended to say you would not have selected Z/B for the Olympics because you don't feel they had yet proven themselves in international competitions, that is not what you said above. Obviously, more clarity leads to better understanding. ;) And in any case, as you already pointed out, moot, moot. Yet I know how hard it is to let sleeping dogs lie. In fact, your comment below brings to mind a few other dead and beaten horses/ sleeping dogs who probably shouldn't be disturbed. :p

    Does 0.19 ring a bell. :lol:


    Again, ITA, Sylvia. I think the above is very true in addition to the fact that in their very own way, Z/B put on a stellar performance that was spot on and could not be ignored. It's not easy to perform as well as they did when the pressure is on in a major championship that decides a spot on the Olympic team. I was surprised Caydee and John didn't get the nod, but for fans to describe Z/B being chosen as "ridiculous" in this instance is simply ... ridiculous.
     
  3. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Actually...no...
     
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :duh: Heavens to Jeremy! :gallopin1
     
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  5. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    The margin Jeremy Abbott placed 4th to Ross Miner's 3rd at 2011 Nationals. I love Ross' skating, but sending him to Worlds over Abbott that year was a totally idiotic mistake by USFS. With Ryan, Richard, and Ross, the US had about zero % chance at maintaining 3 Worlds spots. With Abbott, the chances would have been much higher.
     
  6. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Well, I am of the view that the USFSA shouldn't have been put in the position to insert D&C on the Olympic team if the judges more accurately assessed the performances of D&C and Z&B. Internationally, no way would Z&B have been given the scores they got at Nationals.

    As for fans grousing influencing Z&B's decision to split (which I very much doubt), was there really that much criticism? There are so many more current American skaters that get real hate.
     
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  7. lauren329

    lauren329 Active Member

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    None of the top 3 pairs would have gotten the scores they got at the FS in Boston. D/C were never ever near a 136 even when they were clean, let alone with losing points on the axel sequence. Marissa and Simon skated a better FS at the Olympics and were like 12 points lower. So its not like Z/B got some massive inflation relative to the other final flight pairs. D&C's score was a pretty massive way to start off the final group that I think (and its just my opinion) was a big, concerted effort to try to push them up out of fourth and into the top 2. When that score went up, I thought there was no way they weren't top 2 and could even maybe eek out a win if C/S had mistakes and the judges held back a bit on their PCS. Z/B giving the performance of their lives threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing and they executed their technical content too well for there to be a big gap. There was a decent gap on PCS though and it was in D/C's favor.

    I think they also benefited tremendously from the draw. If they had skated first in the FS, I think D/C might have been silver medalists and Olympians. But Z/B being in the finale spot and delivering like that, it was hard to deny them and I think there's a decent amount of fans who would say they should have won the FS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  8. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    A lot of the critiques that I'm aware of came after Worlds, and when the GP announcements came out awhile ago. In any case, "real hate" vs dismissive carping vs quantity of negative slights, who can actually say which stings worse, unless you're the target?
     
  9. Robin26

    Robin26 Active Member

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    She has been seen in Florida and is skating with Raad.
     
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  10. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    There was definitely a good amount of discussion as to whether Inoue/Baldwin should have made the team instead. But Evora/Ladwig had become a sentimental favorite among some skating fans and finally starting putting things together, and I think that may have cooled some of the forum debate of I/B vs E/L. And with E/L beating Denney/Barrett by a few spots at the Olympics (although the reverse happened at Worlds), that may have further cooled the debate. If I recall correctly, I/B did as well as they did at that Nationals in large part because they executed one of the best throw triple axels they've ever done and had a bit of a "dream skate". I don't believe that dream skates at Nationals should get people onto World/Olympic teams, and I'm not sure I/B's scoring potential was all that great without them landing the rarely landed 3A throw. So in a way, I was okay with E/L getting sent instead, despite I/B having a better recent resume. Honestly, it was a bit of a deflating year because our best pair at the time was McLaughlin/Brubaker, but their smaller height difference was affecting the size of their elements, and the story of their collapse kind of took over the pairs event for that year, more so than the I/B vs E/L discussion. But there definitely was debate about who should have made the team, even though it seemed that Nationals results were the only thing they were willing to look at back in 2010.


    Yes, I remember that debate as well.


    I agree. I really have no idea how long these exact selection procedures have been in place. I just assumed they were relatively new because it used to seem like an unwritten rule that Nationals results would be strictly followed in naming World/Olympic teams. I remember Tara Lipinski saying that she was worried about being 4th after the SP at 1998 Nationals because she needed to be in the top 3 to make the team. So even the skaters have always seemed to feel the pressure of "getting in the top 2 or 3 or else". If we've always had these selection procedures, how in the world did Jeremy Abbott not make the 2011 World team? Maybe the selection process is not new, but it seems that USFS has only just recently become truly open to considering skaters' "entire bodies of work" and realizes that can be beneficial in determining their best possible team selection.
     
  11. leigh466

    leigh466 Active Member

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    Has Z/B split been announced/confirmed? I don't see it on Ice Network?
     
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  12. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    Jeremy Abbott wasn't selected in 2011 because it wasn't an Olympic year. Olympic selection criteria is different than world selection criteria. The only way Tara would have been left off the '98 Olympic team would be if she decided she didn't want to go. No way was USFS going to leave their reigning world champion at home.
     
  13. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I too have been checking in to see official confirmation, though I do not doubt the source(s). Just a bit surprised by all the bitching & moaning & verbosity about something that is over & done with (aka the 2014 Olympic selection). But that's life, c'est la vie. ;)

    Back on topic to the present day, I've been wondering what a union of Gretchen & Nathan would look like on ice....hmmmm.....total opposites. Mayhap they can help each other out. The ballerina and the linebacker. He can help her with the jumps and becoming more technical, and she can help him with his posture and toepoint and elegance. Also, watching old videos on youtube, I've noticed that Nathan (& Felicia) went for the most difficult elements this past year (e.g. reverse lasso lift, throw 3lutz, transitions, sbs 2axels into sbs 2axels, etc.). Huge respect from me! :cool: I've always wished that Gretchen & Andrew would've gone for more difficult elements when it came to the lifts, throws, and transitions. Use Gretchen's flexibility to create more interesting & difficult lifts, as well as pair spins. jmho.

    I'm biting at the bit waiting for the new season to start already. How exciting to see all the new teams, as well as old! :)
     
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Max Aaron and Denney/Coughlin were assigned to Worlds using the Worlds criteria, which people have been arguing were the same when Abbott was denied a Worlds spot in 2011.
     
  15. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    The selection criteria for Olympics and Worlds should be extremely similar, if not the same, shouldn't it? They're doing the same thing for both Worlds and Olympics-- selecting the best team they can for world level competition.

    In most instances, D/C with a couple mistakes likely would have outscored a clean Z/B. But I think at this Nationals, Z/B beating D/C by a tiny amount made sense. The scoring was hugely inflated for the final group though. Yes, Z/B's score was likely over 20 (!) points higher than they would have scored internationally for a similar skate, but it seemed they got that score only because of the massive scores that had been given to some of the teams before them. The scores were just huge-- Castelli/Shnapir got a +3 on a 3S throw that she very noticeably stepped out of. I didn't think Z/B's score was that much more inflated that the others in the top 3 (maybe a little bit though). I can understand the order of finish (although sometimes I debate it), but the scores ended up being more like placeholders rather than anything resembling what they could have scored internationally.



    I feel similarly. My guess is they thought that D/C's skate might be enough to win, so they gave them a massive score to help close the relatively large gap that was between Castelli/Shnapir and D/C after the SP. Then when C/S skated well enough (it was a rough skate, but deemed enough) to hold on for the win, they had to give them a huge score too to keep them ahead of D/C. I know that most Nationals have some inflation, but it seems that they went to the extreme this year with some of the scores to make sure the order of finish was right.

    I doubt that, or at least I hope not. A random start order really shouldn't mean anything. It's a competition-- the last team to skate isn't some grand finale, they're just another competitor in the event. I want to believe a random draw is irrelevant, unless there are so many entrants in an event that the judges couldn't possibly remember the earlier skaters by the time they get to the last ones (not a problem in pairs).
     
  16. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    The Olympics is very different from worlds on one level: it has no direct effect on the future of the program. Sending unknowns to the Olympics is less risky. Which is probably why world selelction is broader. It is published in the rule book if you want to see the differences.


    I also think it is naive to think skate order doesn't matter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    One difference is that Worlds assignments could be guaranteed on the basis of Nationals results, but for legal reasons they have to allow some leeway in Olympic selection to avoid Nationals being designated as an official Olympic Trials with revenue going to the USOC.

    And of course there's one more reason why a national medalist might have to be skipped over Olympic team selection -- if they're not US citizens.

    Thanks, that too.
     
  18. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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  19. toddlj

    toddlj Livestreams at 1am on Thanksgiving weekend? OK!

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    Z/B have withdrawn from the GP, as predicted by the gossip.
     
  20. Dramahkween

    Dramahkween Active Member

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    I'm just curious who these "sources" in Florida are? There is absolutely no truth to these "reports" that Zhang is skating with Raad. This is nothing more than a rumor. Montalbano and Raad are skating together, for Israel.

    ETA: Davidovich is no longer skating with Matej. She was last spotted with AJ Reiss.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  21. Robin26

    Robin26 Active Member

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    . When it was first reported they had paired up, I was wondering how Silecky was going to balance his studies at the Univ. of California at Berkeley with training. I wonder how long Israel (Boris Chait) plans to hold Davidovich?

    I heard from Silecky personally it has nothing do with Federation or his school ! Davidovich pulled a Krasnopolsky and up and left to skate with someone else. Who? Im not sure.
     
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  22. Dramahkween

    Dramahkween Active Member

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    Yes, this is true...And to my knowledge she isn't skating for Israel anymore.
     
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Generally speaking, both partners have to feel a partnership is working in order for the partnership to work. Deciding to leave a partnership before ever competing together does happen.

    ETA that Denney/Coughlin are scheduled to perform (first time since her injury) in Lake Placid, NY this Saturday - it's mentioned at the end of the Nagasu/Lake Placid article posted in her GSD thread here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...su-Interview&p=4290105&viewfull=1#post4290105
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  24. Dramahkween

    Dramahkween Active Member

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    Florida.
     
  25. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Definitely less risky, but I find naming D/C to the Worlds team kind of "usey"..Let's face it..going to the OLY is every skater's dream...No glory, just good enough to earn or maintain spots.

    Under IJS, skate order shouldn't matter at all, but it does.

    I like your post.
     
  26. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    If Denny is so injured why is she skating in a exhibition?
     
  27. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should wait to see what she does in the exhibition. The force of landing triples and throw triples might be too much- but she can do doubles, for instance. Or maybe she can jump but not do throws.
     
  28. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Where is she skating?
     
  29. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    <deleted>
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Lake Placid - see my above post #623.

    To Jammers: Skating in shows is entirely different than training to compete - D/C's USFS press release mentioned they would be doing shows.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014