U.S. Pairs 2014 - News and Updates, Part III

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    maybe denney is going for the miki route :saint::watch::violin:
     
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering the same thing.

    IMO, it was ridiculous in the first place that Z&B went to Olympics just because of a tiny fraction of a point. USFS 'rules' for assigning championships spots are so imprecise that it could have easily been justified but it still made me :rolleyes: to infinity, considering D/C's better international results.

    Matej Silecky, representing the USA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  3. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    is it official now?
     
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Wowsa, how can a team that is "kept home" ever "prove themselves on the world stage..." :duh:

    Good thing that there's no need for you to "buy the injury."


    ETA:
    Why not do a survey then and report back!


    Eh, Ziggy, please come help USFS then. They must desperately need your expert input. I suppose lots of "ridiculous" things happen everyday. Z/B going to the Olympics, regardless of how you feel about it, was not ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Delete double post
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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  7. RUKen

    RUKen Guest

    It would have been less controversial if all of the Olympic skaters had been chosen by looking at their career history. It is precisely because Ashley Wagner was chosen over Mirai Nagasu because of her accomplishments over the previous four years, whereas Denney & Coughlin were not chosen seemingly because of the single criterion of their finish at Nationals, that the controversy occurred. Consistency, one way or the other, would have made the selections a bit more understandable.
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I felt the same. If USFS applied this reasoning in one case, why didn't they apply it in the other?

    Sorry, I know that this poor dead horse has been beaten way too much already but then maybe USFS is going to eventually get a hint and develop a clear and transparent selection policy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
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  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    My two cents on this dead horse: D/C's chances to be named to the 2014 Olympic team were hurt by the fact that they did not compete at 2013 Nationals or Worlds (they were initially named before withdrawing) due to Coughlin's hip injury/elective surgery/prolonged recovery.

    ETA (to reply to Ziggy's edited addition):
    I don't think that's really possible as long as USFS' current method of selection by committee (with MANY people involved) is in place.

    Does anyone know where Davidovich/Silecky currently are training?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Well, but there's never been consistency in figure skating judging or in team selections in any country, nor in judging at the ISU level. Not ever! There's way too much politics involved.

    In any case, by being consistent in looking at career history, Polina Edmunds is the one who would have been left off the ladies' team. IMO, Edmunds was over-scored in any case, especially in her senior Nationals debut. She's wonderful, but still a lot of room for development and to luck out on an Olympics your first time competing at senior Nationals was incredibly lucky. Plus, she wasn't completely perfect. Mirai was the only one who did not make mistakes in either program, albeit a lot of people attempted to dis her free skate. There is no way to make the case that Polina's circumstances are similar to Jason Brown's either, since Jason had been performing at U.S. senior Nationals since 2011 and is a multiple medal winner on the JGP, a former JGPF champion and multiple medal winner at Junior Worlds. Jason blew the house down in his Nationals fp without a doubt. While impressive and talented, Polina IMO still needs a chance to marinate. Lucky for her to have gained the invaluable Olympics and Worlds experience she gained this year, and she'll likely benefit from the experience as her career progresses. It's a tribute to Gracie and to Ashley that three spots for the U.S. ladies is a reality once again.
     
  11. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    For starters Z/B could have won medals at 4CC, Cup of China, Skate America or either of the US Classics they were at, but the best they did was 4th. D/C's record spoke for itself.

    But let’s send the first team to the world’s largest sports stage to see if they can “prove” themselves (even though they never had stepped up in the past.)

    Like it was said Ashley had the opposite criteria for selection.

    At any rate, Z/B were selected, got 12th and broke up so it’s really a moot point anyway. The only good that can come from it is if the USFS changes the selection criteria for the future.
     
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  12. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Incredibly kind of you to give your permission. I figured after all 5 years on fsu you'd know the difference between actual criticism and being dismissive, but it seems you're still struggling. What on earth does lack of ice coverage and speed have to do with Z/B skating their best at Nationals? Yes, they did that and it's something they should be proud of. Their best as a team in 2014 still had limitations and I pointed out it's entirely possible both (or one of them) felt exploring other options would be better. If that's being dismissive :lol: GL to you once the new season starts.
     
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Well I guess your dismissive tone was being directed at me then apparently by suggesting I start an appreciation thread for Z/B, a team that is no longer together. ;)
     
  14. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Trashcan is full of reminiscing about past performances, innit? :p
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    That's what I think needs to change. Decisions made this way lack consistency and clarity and that is not fair to the skaters.

    A mathematical formula (for example: China - 70% of best international score + 30% of best national score or Finland - highest average score from a number of designated competitions - both looking at the current season only) has its flaws as well but at least it's completely transparent.

    You know where you stand, you know what you need to do and nobody is left wondering how and why a decision was reached.
     
  16. 2sk8

    2sk8 Active Member

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    I don't think they are skating together. I'm told her unresolved release and his school made it a no go.
     
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  17. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    I tend to agree.

    I actually sort of think that if USFS had "upset the apple cart" in both Pairs and Ladies instead of just Ladies, it would have alleviated some of the controversy over the decision to select Ashley over Mirai. Some spectators, especially casual ones, seemed to interpret that situation as some sort of "attack" on Mirai-- that she was the only one to "get replaced" (rather than she didn't earn a spot over a skater that likely could score better internationally). Because this was really the first time this new selection procedure was being used and people were not yet used to Nationals not being the sole determinant in making an Olympic team, it may have eased public confusion/criticism if this situation had affected multiple disciplines instead of just Ladies. I obviously don't think fans or the media's opinions should play any part in selecting an Olympic team, it's just an observation. But more importantly, from a skating standpoint, if we're choosing one Ladies skater over another because she has a better chance of scoring/placing higher internationally, then we should try to apply a similar type of reasoning across the other disciplines as well. A decision made in the Ladies discipline should have no effect on our ability to select the best possible pairs we can.


    John's 28, which is getting younger and younger in pairs these days, but I agree, I don't think they will return. If they wanted to keep competing, I think they would be trying to compete this season. I remember both John and Caydee stating indirectly in newspaper articles (John's article was before Nationals, Caydee's was before Worlds) that this past season might be it for them. Heck he's been hinting at retirement since 2011 ;)
     
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  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Thanks for the update, 2sk8. When it was first reported they had paired up, I was wondering how Silecky was going to balance his studies at the Univ. of California at Berkeley with training. I wonder how long Israel (Boris Chait) plans to hold Davidovich?

    Then the skaters (a collective majority that care enough about this particular issue) have to take the lead and attempt to initiate change within USFS, as difficult as it may be.

    ETA that John Coughlin, for example, has already shown his "activism," as I posted last month:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, you can never be sure how much or how little "mean fan comments" are factors in splits, program changes, or on-ice performances, particularly in today's social media world. And btw, thanks for your permission to start a Z/B appreciation thread if I feel the need. At this point, I don't. What they accomplished in their time together speaks for itself.


    Sure, but that's not "keeping them home" as you suggested you would do.


    Z/B selection for the Olympic team is not the best example of the need for USFS to change selection criteria. Like I said, USFS opened up a can of worms by deciding to make a foray into tweaking their selections in an Olympic year, and going away from on-ice results, which they'd traditionally tweaked anyway via the scoring.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  20. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I don't think Aaron would have been next in line: Brown just beat Aaron in the SP and dominated him in the FS at US Nationals despite lesser planned technical content. He dominated the National Champion in the FS as well, and his FS became a YouTube phenomenon. USFS might be dense in many ways, but TV popularity is something they do understand. In Pairs, it was a less than a point squeaker, with D/C edging Z/B in the FS, and who in the US besides people involved with skating care about who is chosen for Pairs?
     
  21. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I don’t mean tied to a bed and never compete. Those competitions I mentioned were are not the Olympics. They had every opportunity to do well at any other competition and failed to medal. So what does the USFA do? Send them to the Olympics and leave the team home with a proven track record. Unless they thought Z/B would honestly get 135.22 in the free again even though their PB is 114.32. To select a team for the Olympics based on a 0.29 lead and no international medals in lieu of a team with plenty of international medals because they lost by 0.29 is ridiculous.

    It’s the best example.

    Not selecting Mirai for the Olympic team because of her international experience is the same reason Z/B should have been left home as well. At least Mirai managed to win some medals.

    And…In case you need a refresher…Mirai beat Ashley in both the short and free by a total of eight points. D/C beat Z/B in the free and only lost by 0.29. That’s the reason the selection process needs to be evaluated and changed ASAP.
     
  22. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Body of work ...I would also like consistency
     
  23. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    I actually sort of think that if USFS had "upset the apple cart" in both Pairs and Ladies instead of just Ladies, it would have alleviated some of the controversy over the decision to select Ashley over Mirai. Some spectators, especially casual ones, seemed to interpret that situation as some sort of "attack" on Mirai-- that she was the only one to "get replaced" (rather than she didn't earn a spot over a skater that likely could score better internationally). Because this was really the first time this new selection procedure was being used and people were not yet used to Nationals not being the sole determinant in making an Olympic team, it may have eased public confusion/criticism if this situation had affected multiple disciplines instead of just Ladies. I obviously don't think fans or the media's opinions should play any part in selecting an Olympic team, it's just an observation. But more importantly, from a skating standpoint, if we're choosing one Ladies skater over another because she has a better chance of scoring/placing higher internationally, then we should try to apply a similar type of reasoning across the other disciplines as well. A decision made in the Ladies discipline should have no effect on our ability to select the best possible pairs we can.


    While 2014 may have been the first time these criteria were actually implemented, they have been around for a very long time. Nationals has never been the only qualifier for the Olympics. Remember back in '98 when Tara Lipinski was in 4th after the short? Had she ended up staying in 4th (as Wagner did this year), there is NO WAY IN H*ll USFS would have left Tara home and sent Tonia Kwiatkowski to the Olympics.
     
  24. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Actually Polina finished high enough at Worlds that even without Ashley the US would have kept 3 spots. Not so sure that would have been the case with Mirai at Worlds. Polina earned her trip to Sochi and finished higher then Mirai probably would have.
     
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  25. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. This was a new situation that hasn't happened before. Never has a proven 2-time US Ladies champion tanked in an Olympic year and finished essentially off the podium. No way if Debbie Thomas or Kristi finished 4th at Nationals in an Olympic year would they have been left off the team either.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    I don't recall many fans questioning why I/B weren't sent to the Vancouver Olympics over E/L based on the results at 2010 U.S. Nationals even though I/B were more proven internationally at the time? Or am I misremembering?
    1 Caydee Denney / Jeremy Barrett 190.30 1 1
    2 Amanda Evora / Mark Ladwig 173.78 3 3
    3 Rena Inoue / John Baldwin 173.18 4 2
     
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    In 2010 it had been years since UFSS broke the precedent of going in strict order of Nationals aside from an injury bye.

    Edmonds placed high enough at Worlds as US #3.
     
  28. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    ^^This.

    I can't believe some people here on FSU are "wuzrobbing" Denney/Coughlin considering the amount of loathing they seem to generate on their programs and technique. I feel like I'm in an alternate universe. :lol:
     
  29. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Me too. And D/C aren't even skating this season either are they?
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Are wuzrobbers the same as the loathers?
     
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